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November 17, 2017, 03:22:18 pm
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Author Topic: Broken Arrow Water Supply  (Read 6090 times)
heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2013, 11:12:15 am »

Whoever put the power on without shutting valves or going through a soft start procedure should have some issues.  But since they now have a 'newly trained' employee, it would be extremely stupid to get rid of him after this intensive training session.  The new guy would just make mistakes, and you got rid of the one who is now more experienced.

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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2013, 11:12:58 am »

A back up water system could become a bacteria problem as well.


Absolutely!  It would have to be a full blown treatment/backup system....
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Conan71
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« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2013, 01:24:53 pm »


Absolutely!  It would have to be a full blown treatment/backup system....


Costly.  Well beyond the budget of most small businesses.
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patric
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« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2013, 02:35:53 pm »

Unless there is some ordinance specifically forbidding it, you might invest in the type of pressure holding tanks that people with well water use.

You draw your water from one end, while new water is being supplied from the other.
It works like a buffer, and being a closed system you still maintain the disinfection.

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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2013, 04:29:09 pm »

Costly.  Well beyond the budget of most small businesses.


You are right - that was another one of those "tongue-in-cheek" things where the inflection is missing in text.  Even if someone had the cash laying around in a company, it would be irresponsible to do that.  Unless you get to the usage level of a small city.  Like a steel plant....seems like I remember the guys at Bethlehem Steel (Sparrows Point Maryland) telling me they had their own water system a few decades ago.   And the nuke I have been to had theirs...when/if it worked....which was all the time until a real emergency came along.


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« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2013, 06:53:41 pm »

Unless there is some ordinance specifically forbidding it, you might invest in the type of pressure holding tanks that people with well water use.

You draw your water from one end, while new water is being supplied from the other.
It works like a buffer, and being a closed system you still maintain the disinfection.



That much water wouldn't last very long in restaurant.
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patric
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« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2013, 10:34:56 pm »

That much water wouldn't last very long in restaurant.

You can connect more than one,




Or go big.

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Red Arrow
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« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2013, 05:23:37 am »

You can connect more than one,




Or go big.



Your concept is correct.  The practicality is what I disagree with.

Edit:
The useful amount of water is typically about 1/3 to 1/4 of the actual tank size depending on the pressure range.  There are some numbers in the link below a few pages down.
http://www.amtrol.com/media/documents/wellxtrol/MC10188_04_13_WellXtrol.pdf
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 07:08:21 am by Red Arrow » Logged

 
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« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2013, 04:33:50 pm »

Other BA locals on here might be able to chime in, but my brother who does live in BA said that the city is working on a new pipeline to Spavinaw.  Now, if that's the case, wouldn't BA essentially be back to where they were 20 years ago, and buying water from the City of Tulsa again (since the City owns Spavinaw Lake and all)?
BA's NEVER utilized Tulsa (even though it was offered at one time) as any more than a very limited emergency supply point and they are'nt going to Spavinaw. 

What they are doing is constructing a new inlet and treatment plant for treating water from an oxbow of the Navigatin Chanel.
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« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2013, 04:37:04 pm »

Your concept is correct.  The practicality is what I disagree with.

Edit:
The useful amount of water is typically about 1/3 to 1/4 of the actual tank size depending on the pressure range.  There are some numbers in the link below a few pages down.
http://www.amtrol.com/media/documents/wellxtrol/MC10188_04_13_WellXtrol.pdf

That's the typical approach but for a 36-inch diameter line the tank will be more like 12'-14' in diameter and 30-40 feet long (that's about the size of the one on the Skiatook system serving Sand Springs and Sapulpa + a remote surge fill tank.
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« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2013, 04:38:36 pm »


Absolutely!  It would have to be a full blown treatment/backup system....

BA has a back-up treatment system of sorts with their old plant also running in addition to the Mid-America line.
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« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2013, 04:52:56 pm »

Whoever put the power on without shutting valves or going through a soft start procedure should have some issues.  But since they now have a 'newly trained' employee, it would be extremely stupid to get rid of him after this intensive training session.  The new guy would just make mistakes, and you got rid of the one who is now more experienced.


I worked on the BA system when it was originally constructed (36" line with pump stations on each end) in the early 80's and it had limited surge protection.  I understand the systems pumps were increased many years later without adding a significant surge system.  From having operated such systems (including the Skiatook system) my guess is when the power went off, the water colum in the line seperated and started a back and forth surge, this alone could have burst the line and if the surge didn't have time to arrest itself (possibly several hours if the system was really cranking) and if the pumps we're restarted before then and the restarted water column met an un-moving, or worse, a retreating water column, BOOM!  Time for new parts and a boil order.   
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Red Arrow
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« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2013, 05:17:57 pm »

That's the typical approach but for a 36-inch diameter line the tank will be more like 12'-14' in diameter and 30-40 feet long (that's about the size of the one on the Skiatook system serving Sand Springs and Sapulpa + a remote surge fill tank.

Is that really practical for a mom and pop restaurant though?  

Edit:
Go back to Reply #10 and the responses to that. 
« Last Edit: June 24, 2013, 05:22:42 pm by Red Arrow » Logged

 
Red Arrow
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« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2013, 06:14:09 pm »

Cost us thousands in sales on Wednesday. The city should have to reimburse us. Absolutely ridiculous. They called us at 10AM and shut us down. Then yesterday they would give us no information until the World tweeted we could open at 10:30AM! We pulled it off but ran out of bread once for a couple of minutes. Just an absolutely ridiculous situation.

What is an average day's water usage for one of your restaurants?
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2013, 06:27:26 pm »

I worked on the BA system when it was originally constructed (36" line with pump stations on each end) in the early 80's and it had limited surge protection.  I understand the systems pumps were increased many years later without adding a significant surge system.  From having operated such systems (including the Skiatook system) my guess is when the power went off, the water colum in the line seperated and started a back and forth surge, this alone could have burst the line and if the surge didn't have time to arrest itself (possibly several hours if the system was really cranking) and if the pumps we're restarted before then and the restarted water column met an un-moving, or worse, a retreating water column, BOOM!  Time for new parts and a boil order.   


Systems get those surges at start up, too.  I worked on a 48" line in Alburquerque once that had a fluctuation in the chart recording (long ago).  Turned out the pumps connected to a straight line that ran about 5 miles to the storage tank up on a small hill.  As the power on impulse traveled down the line, it hit the turn up to the tank, and set up a standing wave that would continue for two and three days - just never stopped... even with changes in flow rates.  

They need soft starts.  Or better yet, VFD's!  Actually, I can't imagine a system of that size not already having that.  Surely they wouldn't be running like that now??




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“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.

What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say.
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