A grassroots organization focused on the intelligent and sustainable development, preservation and revitalization of Tulsa.
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
November 23, 2017, 06:11:56 pm
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Car Dark  (Read 11738 times)
Red Arrow
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 10232


WWW
« Reply #60 on: October 02, 2012, 10:13:05 pm »

The two layers delaminate and the regular hair dryer on the outside method just doesn't quite make it.  At all.

At least it won't fall off during an Oklahoma summer.  Try a heat shrink gun.  Be careful not to melt everything around though.  Might even shatter your window. 

That would fix the tint problem by requiring window replacement.   Grin
Logged

 
nathanm
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 8240


« Reply #61 on: October 02, 2012, 10:32:22 pm »

A Tesla is not a Fisker, it doesn't catch on fire, it just drains its battery to a point where it can't safely be recharged, if not plugged in for many months at a time. It's not like a hole in the gas tank at all, in the sense that it is not in any way a safety issue. Obviously, they should endeavor to make it less likely to happen and to make purchasers aware of the need to occasionally top off their car. That said, with the issue affecting only 0.2% of owners, it seems to be a problem with very limited real world impact.
Logged

"Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration" --Abraham Lincoln
heironymouspasparagus
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 11120



« Reply #62 on: October 02, 2012, 10:43:29 pm »

At least it won't fall off during an Oklahoma summer.  Try a heat shrink gun.  Be careful not to melt everything around though.  Might even shatter your window. 

That would fix the tint problem by requiring window replacement.   Grin

I suspect the Oklahoma summer is what caused it to bubble in the first place. 

I priced a new window.  $ 275 from Robinson.  It came real close to being a change out event, but couldn't get the timing to work out.  I needed it done by a Saturday, and they couldn't get the glass til Monday.  Otherwise, I would have changed it.  Easily worth the money NOT to have to take that carp off!!


Logged

“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.

What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say.
Red Arrow
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 10232


WWW
« Reply #63 on: October 03, 2012, 06:57:15 am »

A Tesla is not a Fisker, it doesn't catch on fire, it just drains its battery to a point where it can't safely be recharged, if not plugged in for many months at a time. It's not like a hole in the gas tank at all, in the sense that it is not in any way a safety issue. Obviously, they should endeavor to make it less likely to happen and to make purchasers aware of the need to occasionally top off their car. That said, with the issue affecting only 0.2% of owners, it seems to be a problem with very limited real world impact.

I used the safety issues to show that sometimes even a 0.2% failure rate is unacceptable.  It's unfortunate  that you cannot extend that concept beyond a life and death situation.   In an era when an oil light in your gas engine car really does mean "not enough quantity of oil", I find the Tesla failure mode to be unacceptable.  I cannot imagine that you would sit by and say "oh well, it only happens to 0.2% of the cars" if you bought any new car you could afford and a few months later there was a failure that cost you personally 40% of the price of the car to fix even if it was your fault.

Several months discharge is the best case scenario.
Quote
How To Brick An Electric Car

A Tesla Roadster that is simply parked without being plugged in will eventually become a “brick”. The parasitic load from the car’s always-on subsystems continually drains the battery and if the battery’s charge is ever totally depleted, it is essentially destroyed. Complete discharge can happen even when the car is plugged in if it isn’t receiving sufficient current to charge, which can be caused by something as simple as using an extension cord. After battery death, the car is completely inoperable. At least in the case of the Tesla Roadster, it’s not even possible to enable tow mode, meaning the wheels will not turn and the vehicle cannot be pushed nor transported to a repair facility by traditional means.

The amount of time it takes an unplugged Tesla to die varies. Tesla’s Roadster Owners Manual [Full Zipped PDF] states that the battery should take approximately 11 weeks of inactivity to completely discharge [Page 5-2, Column 3: PDF]. However, that is from a full 100% charge. If the car has been driven first, say to be parked at an airport for a long trip, that time can be substantially reduced. If the car is driven to nearly its maximum range and then left unplugged, it could potentially “brick” in about one week.1 Many other scenarios are possible: for example, the car becomes unplugged by accident, or is unwittingly plugged into an extension cord that is defective or too long.

When a Tesla battery does reach total discharge, it cannot be recovered and must be entirely replaced. Unlike a normal car battery, the best-case replacement cost of the Tesla battery is currently at least $32,000, not including labor and taxes that can add thousands more to the cost.

http://theunderstatement.com/post/18030062041/its-a-brick-tesla-motors-devastating-design

Logged

 
nathanm
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 8240


« Reply #64 on: October 03, 2012, 03:04:51 pm »

I cannot imagine that you would sit by and say "oh well, it only happens to 0.2% of the cars" if you bought any new car you could afford and a few months later there was a failure that cost you personally 40% of the price of the car to fix even if it was your fault.

Sure, I'd be upset, because I ended up getting the short end of the odds. Then I'd kick myself for not reading the warning in the manual that notes that it should be left plugged in whenever possible. Then I'd go and recharge the battery pack high enough to make the electronics work again, because I'm cool that way.

However, we're still talking about a vehicle that isn't even the one we were originally talking about before Gassy kindly derailed us into this idiotic discussion. The Model S is claimed to give you 30 days from the time you drain the battery to zero or a year or so from 50% or greater charge. Obviously, given the limited number in the wild so far, it's hard to say at this point for sure. Yes, it's a failure mode not known to people with gas cars..well, not as severely anyway. Starter batteries aren't that expensive. It is more akin to leaving old gas in the tank with no sta-bil for a couple of years and being pissed off when you need to clean the injectors because they've gotten varnished, IMO.
Logged

"Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration" --Abraham Lincoln
Red Arrow
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 10232


WWW
« Reply #65 on: October 03, 2012, 04:51:28 pm »

Then I'd go and recharge the battery pack high enough to make the electronics work again, because I'm cool that way.

Did you not read the part where that is not possible?  Dead is dead, not sleeping for this battery.

Quote
However, we're still talking about a vehicle that isn't even the one we were originally talking about before Gassy kindly derailed us into this idiotic discussion. The Model S is claimed to give you 30 days from the time you drain the battery to zero or a year or so from 50% or greater charge.

Can you zoom in to the literature for me?  I looked on the Tesla site and only found that all the cars appear to use the same battery technology.

[/quote] Obviously, given the limited number in the wild so far, it's hard to say at this point for sure. Yes, it's a failure mode not known to people with gas cars..well, not as severely anyway. Starter batteries aren't that expensive. It is more akin to leaving old gas in the tank with no sta-bil for a couple of years and being pissed off when you need to clean the injectors because they've gotten varnished, IMO.[/quote]

Figure a $25,000 car.  I doubt it would cost $10,000 to clean the injectors and purge the old gas out of the system. 

Logged

 
nathanm
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 8240


« Reply #66 on: October 03, 2012, 05:15:32 pm »

Did you not read the part where that is not possible?  Dead is dead, not sleeping for this battery.

The car won't charge itself. That doesn't mean the cells in the battery are actually unable to hold a charge.

Here's a news article regarding the Model S: http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-57384571-76/tesla-you-cant-brick-model-s-batteries/
Logged

"Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration" --Abraham Lincoln
Red Arrow
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 10232


WWW
« Reply #67 on: October 03, 2012, 05:21:12 pm »

The car won't charge itself. That doesn't mean the cells in the battery are actually unable to hold a charge.

Here's a news article regarding the Model S: http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-57384571-76/tesla-you-cant-brick-model-s-batteries/

Quote
Today, Tesla said the Model S has more protections than the Roadster and would approach full discharge after 12 months if left parked with a 50 percent charge. Also, a Model S can be recharged if driven to a zero battery state.
"Model S batteries also have the ability to protect themselves as they approach very low charge levels by going into a 'deep sleep' mode that lowers the loss even further. A Model S will not allow its battery to fall below about 5 percent charge.

That's more reasonable.
Logged

 
heironymouspasparagus
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 11120



« Reply #68 on: October 03, 2012, 07:26:29 pm »

I used the safety issues to show that sometimes even a 0.2% failure rate is unacceptable.  It's unfortunate  that you cannot extend that concept beyond a life and death situation.   In an era when an oil light in your gas engine car really does mean "not enough quantity of oil", I find the Tesla failure mode to be unacceptable.  I cannot imagine that you would sit by and say "oh well, it only happens to 0.2% of the cars" if you bought any new car you could afford and a few months later there was a failure that cost you personally 40% of the price of the car to fix even if it was your fault.

Several months discharge is the best case scenario.



It is the same thing - if you drain the oil pan, you destroy the engine.  If you drain the battery, you destroy the battery.




Logged

“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.

What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say.
Red Arrow
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 10232


WWW
« Reply #69 on: October 03, 2012, 09:21:29 pm »

It is the same thing - if you drain the oil pan, you destroy the engine.  If you drain the battery, you destroy the battery.

I drain the oil from my engines every few thousand miles and have yet to destroy an engine by doing it.  When the oil pan is empty, it readily accepts new oil and we go on for a few thousand more miles.  My Buick has an "oil level" light that lights up when the oil level is ..... low, but not so low it will immediately destroy the engine.

I think Nathan's analogy of old gas in the gas tank is more appropriate than your draining the oil analogy.
Logged

 
heironymouspasparagus
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 11120



« Reply #70 on: October 04, 2012, 01:42:20 am »

I drain the oil from my engines every few thousand miles and have yet to destroy an engine by doing it.  When the oil pan is empty, it readily accepts new oil and we go on for a few thousand more miles.  My Buick has an "oil level" light that lights up when the oil level is ..... low, but not so low it will immediately destroy the engine.

I think Nathan's analogy of old gas in the gas tank is more appropriate than your draining the oil analogy.

Just like the people who plug in the Tesla - to the proper charger, don't destroy the batteries.  When it is empty, it readily accepts new electrons, and will go for a few hundred more miles.  The Tesla has a 'charge level' light that lights up when the electron level is low.  Also, not so low as to immediately destroy the battery.

Amazingly, it still takes many days to weeks to kill the battery, and extreme neglect according to the manufacturers version of extreme neglect.  It is more like if you ran the engine without oil for that week or two.


Sounds like there are 5 cars with the issue.  I think if I were to buy one of those, I would go ahead and get the proper charger installed before just parking it in the garage.  And how big an ordeal would it be to call ahead and see what the voltages are in Japan?  (But hey, we are American's...the world should accommodate OUR voltages...)

http://jalopnik.com/5887265/tesla-motors-devastating-design-problem

This will be an even bigger problem if that's the way the battery is gonna be treated and reacts.
http://gigaom.com/cleantech/tesla-solarcity-quietly-selling-building-battery-projects/

Logged

“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.

What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say.
Red Arrow
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 10232


WWW
« Reply #71 on: October 04, 2012, 06:50:42 am »

Just like the people who plug in the Tesla - to the proper charger, don't destroy the batteries.  When it is empty, it readily accepts new electrons, and will go for a few hundred more miles.  The Tesla has a 'charge level' light that lights up when the electron level is low.  Also, not so low as to immediately destroy the battery.

Amazingly, it still takes many days to weeks to kill the battery, and extreme neglect according to the manufacturers version of extreme neglect.  It is more like if you ran the engine without oil for that week or two.

I disagree with your oil analogy.  You can repeat it as often as you like and I will still disagree.  Did you read that somewhere?  (Hint: I saw the same lame oil analogy in some responses to the issue at one of the links posted here.  Can't you come up with anything yourself?)

In the world of risk mitigation, depending on a human action to prevent an undesirable event is low on the list of acceptable alternatives.

Tesla has appeared to address the brick problem since the Roadster and I have said those actions are more reasonable.
Logged

 
Townsend
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 12011



« Reply #72 on: October 09, 2012, 09:21:18 am »

Per the TW FB post Broken Arrow police will be equipped to enforce the tint law:

Quote
By the end of the year, all 120 Broken Arrow police officers will have an AR-15 rifle and a duffle bag with enough ammunition and medical supplies to outlast the most well-equipped gunmen, Cpl. Leon Calhoun said.

So there you go.  All safe now.
Logged
patric
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 6330


These Aren't the Droids You're Looking For


« Reply #73 on: October 09, 2012, 09:50:56 am »

Per the TW FB post Broken Arrow police will be equipped to enforce the tint law:
By the end of the year, all 120 Broken Arrow police officers will have an AR-15 rifle and a duffle bag with enough ammunition and medical supplies to outlast the most well-equipped gunmen, Cpl. Leon Calhoun said.
So there you go.  All safe now.

Maybe they will keep them in their parked car spotlighted by a "security light" so everyone can see  Grin
Logged

"Tulsa will lay off police and firemen before we will cut back on unnecessarily wasteful streetlights."  -- March 18, 2009 TulsaNow Forum
heironymouspasparagus
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 11120



« Reply #74 on: October 09, 2012, 10:11:49 am »

I disagree with your oil analogy.  You can repeat it as often as you like and I will still disagree.  Did you read that somewhere?  (Hint: I saw the same lame oil analogy in some responses to the issue at one of the links posted here.  Can't you come up with anything yourself?)

In the world of risk mitigation, depending on a human action to prevent an undesirable event is low on the list of acceptable alternatives.

Tesla has appeared to address the brick problem since the Roadster and I have said those actions are more reasonable.


As for coming up with something myself...yep, I did.  As apparently did quite a number of other people with at least minimal skills related to auto maintenance.  It should be one of the first things one thinks of when thinking catastrophic failure of IC engine.  The other would be lack of coolant.  Those are the biggies.

You are just being obtuse for the sake of obtuse.  You know that the many rituals evolved over the years for the care and feeding of an internal combustion engine are much more complicated than plugging in a battery charger, and can lead to any one of several paths of total destruction, rather than just a battery going dead.


Even the "vaunted" Cadillac Northstar - supposed to the be the ultimate GM engine - has a serious weak spot in its aluminum engine.  And you don't even have to abuse or ignore for that failure.  You can just drive it to 125,000 miles and watch it happen.  Head gaskets cost around $3500 to replace if you DON'T need new heads or block.  New air ride suspension on the DeVille costs about the same after just too few miles (well under 100,000).

Logged

“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.

What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say.
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

 
  Hosted by TulsaConnect and Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
 

Mission

 

"TulsaNow's Mission is to help Tulsa become the most vibrant, diverse, sustainable and prosperous city of our size. We achieve this by focusing on the development of Tulsa's distinctive identity and economic growth around a dynamic, urban core, complemented by a constellation of livable, thriving communities."
more...

 

Contact

 

2210 S Main St.
Tulsa, OK 74114
(918) 409-2669
info@tulsanow.org