Does the County think we as residents are stupid?

[Conan71]

Me too!

Curious how people don't realize the company already failed and this is the attempt to move forward. I find it interesting that some posters are willing to allow "non profit" religious institutions avoid paying taxes rationalizing they add so much to our economic base and want to harm that same base if it means instating a tax already accepted but not placed.

Upside out and inside down, it's the only game in town. If this were xyz company, we'd all be for this proposal if it meant luring 2400 employees. Because AA has a stigma attached to it is no reason to abandon our work force now.  US Air will be a worthy corporate citizen now that there's a future. Let's keep the working man from losing despite corporate welfare. If this weren't about the working man, I'd say forget it.

There's a difference between a land-owner not paying property tax and a regressive sales tax imposed on everyone.  I can afford a sales tax increase, but those on fixed incomes and working for minimum wage lose more spending power.  Half a cent doesn't make much of a difference to me personally.

So you think corporate welfare on the backs of the poor and elderly is just?

[nathanm]

This is precisely what property tax should be for.

[Teatownclown]

There's a difference between a land-owner not paying property tax and a regressive sales tax imposed on everyone.  I can afford a sales tax increase, but those on fixed incomes and working for minimum wage lose more spending power.  Half a cent doesn't make much of a difference to me personally.

So you think corporate welfare on the backs of the poor and elderly is just?

Yes, when it benefits our community. And actually, this is more like a hand up than a hand out....

It's not a regressive tax and as you point out and it will not make a big difference to the poor and the elderly. Little impact overall and not like the coming changes in the tax code that will hurt the %1ers.

If you were Mayor, would you propose cutting services and lowering taxes? Do you think it's fair that every year there's basically an increase in ad valorem taxes that hurts fixed incomers? In 20 years, my property taxes have almost tripled while the city withers. Whine for us, Conan.

[Conan71]

Yes, when it benefits our community. And actually, this is more like a hand up than a hand out....

It's not a regressive tax and as you point out and it will not make a big difference to the poor and the elderly. Little impact overall and not like the coming changes in the tax code that will hurt the %1ers.

If you were Mayor, would you propose cutting services and lowering taxes? Do you think it's fair that every year there's basically an increase in ad valorem taxes that hurts fixed incomers? In 20 years, my property taxes have almost tripled while the city withers. Whine for us, Conan.

Most definitely a closet conservative.  I've known it all along!

[custosnox]

Now I haven't been keeping a real close eye on all of this, but didn't I see that AA had made a proposal and the Union flat out turned it down?  Do we know what kind of proposal was made?  Why should we fight to keep people employed when the only reason they would be unemployed would be greed?

[DTowner]

American Airlines' past dip in the Vision 2025 pool and its recent "failure" leading to bankruptcy make this a hard sell   That the citizens own the facilities and need to invest in updating/improving them are good arguments, but the opponents' ads practically write themselves.

[Townsend]

American Airlines' past dip in the Vision 2025 pool and its recent "failure" leading to bankruptcy make this a hard sell   That the citizens own the facilities and need to invest in updating/improving them are good arguments, but the opponents' ads practically write themselves.

All they have to do is show that drawing of the islands in the middle of the Arkansas river and ask "Is this what you want?".  That will crush it.

[DTowner]

All they have to do is show that drawing of the islands in the middle of the Arkansas river and ask "Is this what you want?".  That will crush it.

In fairness, the Channels suffered from poor conception and the river package that was voted down suffered from poor timing, poor political strategy and Channel stink spill over.  To me, the most effective argument against any more money for AA is "been there, done that" and they are still cutting jobs. 

[Ed W]

Now I haven't been keeping a real close eye on all of this, but didn't I see that AA had made a proposal and the Union flat out turned it down?  Do we know what kind of proposal was made?  Why should we fight to keep people employed when the only reason they would be unemployed would be greed?

Did you miss the part about 5 out of 7 groups of TWU-represented employees accepting the AA proposal?  The mechanics turned it down because it asked us to give up far more than any other unionized airline workers in the country.  The World had a glowing report describing a 7% wage increase, but left out that it's 7% spread over 6 years AND that AA wants to impose higher deductions that would more than wipe out that 7%.  AA wants to eliminate retiree medical insurance entirely, and most of us have been paying into that since we hired in. 

I know, I know.  It's an article of faith among some Oklahomans that unions are both greedy and lazy.  That's not going to change.  Consider, however, when your seatbelt is firmly fastened and the airplane is at 30,000 feet, whether it's better to have that airplane maintained by well-paid (and unionized) employees or have it maintained by those who work for the least amount of money.  The airlines are on a race to the bottom and they're outsourcing maintenance to the lowest bidder as part of that.

I'm one of those greedy employees.  AA took 20% of my pay in 2003 in what was laughably called a negotiation.  When someone holds a gun to your head, they're not negotiating - trust me.  TWU gave up roughly the same amount that upper management awarded themselves in bonuses, all this while the company wasn't making a profit.  We could be working for free and management would complain about labor costs.  We've been well-trained to disbelieve anything management says and pay careful attention to what they do.       

[Red Arrow]

AA wants to eliminate retiree medical insurance entirely, and most of us have been paying into that since we hired in. 

I support you on that issue.  They owe you the accrued benefit to date.  If they insist on no future in that regard,  you will have to decide whether or not that is acceptable.

Consider, however, when your seatbelt is firmly fastened and the airplane is at 30,000 feet, whether it's better to have that airplane maintained by well-paid (and unionized) employees or have it maintained by those who work for the least amount of money.  The airlines are on a race to the bottom and they're outsourcing maintenance to the lowest bidder as part of that.

I want the plane I am riding in to be maintained by well trained, competent personnel.  Generally they will be well paid or they will go elsewhere.  I really don't care if they are unionized or not.

I'm one of those greedy employees.  AA took 20% of my pay in 2003 in what was laughably called a negotiation.  When someone holds a gun to your head, they're not negotiating - trust me.  TWU gave up roughly the same amount that upper management awarded themselves in bonuses, all this while the company wasn't making a profit.  We could be working for free and management would complain about labor costs.  We've been well-trained to disbelieve anything management says and pay careful attention to what they do.       

I was told in 1993 that I and the rest of the salaried employees of the small company I worked for were going to take a 25% cut.  It included top boss and down.  Where AA lost my support is in awarding bonuses to top execs without including the guys that made the big sacrifice at the bottom.  Splitting up the bonuses to all would probably not have amounted to much when divided so many ways but the gesture would have done a lot of good for relations between management and labor.

[Conan71]

Yeah, what Red said.

Ed, curious what you think as a Tulsa County citizen what the response of AA employees will be of such a proposal?

If AA insists on cutting retirement health insurance, at least from my family's experience, Medicare doesn't seem too bad if you have good supplemental coverage.  So long as they would pay for a good supplemental policy, I'd think benefits should be similar, yes?  I still disagree with shirking off the responsibility of what's been promised for your entire career on the part of your employer but if they did get away with it, just saying it's not all doom and gloom.

[Teatownclown]

Most definitely a closet conservative.  I've known it all along!

Conan, I've always said I was a fiscal conservative. The only closet is the one you are in.

[Red Arrow]

The vote for a county wide sales tax may depend on what each city is already charging.

City Sales tax on top of State and County

Tulsa: 3.167
Bixby: 3.50
Jenks: 3.00
Sand Springs: 3.50
Owasso: 3.00
Glenpool: 4.00
Broken Arrow: 3.00

http://www.tax.ok.gov/publicat/copos/copo3Q12.pdf

[custosnox]

Did you miss the part about 5 out of 7 groups of TWU-represented employees accepting the AA proposal?  The mechanics turned it down because it asked us to give up far more than any other unionized airline workers in the country.  The World had a glowing report describing a 7% wage increase, but left out that it's 7% spread over 6 years AND that AA wants to impose higher deductions that would more than wipe out that 7%.  AA wants to eliminate retiree medical insurance entirely, and most of us have been paying into that since we hired in. 

I know, I know.  It's an article of faith among some Oklahomans that unions are both greedy and lazy.  That's not going to change.  Consider, however, when your seatbelt is firmly fastened and the airplane is at 30,000 feet, whether it's better to have that airplane maintained by well-paid (and unionized) employees or have it maintained by those who work for the least amount of money.  The airlines are on a race to the bottom and they're outsourcing maintenance to the lowest bidder as part of that.

I'm one of those greedy employees.  AA took 20% of my pay in 2003 in what was laughably called a negotiation.  When someone holds a gun to your head, they're not negotiating - trust me.  TWU gave up roughly the same amount that upper management awarded themselves in bonuses, all this while the company wasn't making a profit.  We could be working for free and management would complain about labor costs.  We've been well-trained to disbelieve anything management says and pay careful attention to what they do.       

I've worked out at AA, and I've seen the greed and stupidity associated with the union out there.  You can pretend it's not there all you want, but it doesn't keep it from being true.  And from what I've seen, the union does everything to keep their people in the shop, qualified or not, so them being union isn't a selling point to me on if a plane is going to be well maintained.  I've also seen where you have well paid employees who are relatively sure of their job position not do quality work because there is no accountability, where as I've also seen low paid employees do an excellent job because if they didn't they were heading out the door.  While I believe that a job well done deserves a payment that reflects the work and quality, unions seem to be more about making sure the payment is made regardless of how well it was done. 

[TheArtist]

   If these facilities are owned by the city, then the proposed tax shouldn't be billed as one for AA.  It should be billed as a "Tulsa Taxpayer Owned Facilities, Maintenance and Investment" tax, or "Tulsa Facilities, Maintenance and Investment" tax.  Also, why would AA or any other company want to spend millions improving something they would not own?  There is only so much work I would do to a place I was renting.