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November 18, 2017, 05:58:56 am
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Author Topic: Tulsa Public Schools Spending  (Read 33037 times)
Conan71
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« Reply #450 on: May 10, 2017, 03:49:48 pm »

I suspect the structural differences between each state's district policy is going to swamp any effects due to the number of districts.  Plus general education funding - since all of the others spend more per capita than we do.

We have been on a path of consolidation for a long time...an ongoing evolutionary process between districts might be the best approach - letting the synergies develop over time. 

Not sure how the panhandle area would ever be able to do that.


Having made this drive a bazillion times now in the last year going between Tulsa and our new place in Cimarron the Panhandle is etched firmly in my mind.

Boise City and Keyes are 20 miles apart or 15 minutes, yet they appear to have independent school districts from K-12.

Goodwell is 15 min from Guymon yet has its own district.

Hooker is 19 miles from Guymon or 20-25 minutes, yet has its own district

Hardesty is 18 miles from Guymon but has its own school district.  That said, Hardesty's web site claims their district covers 250 miles

Turpin and Balko are 27 miles apart, both have their own districts.

Logistically, it would not be difficult to consolidate panhandle schools more than has happened.  As much as I advocate consolidation I do realize that the schools do help provide a sense of community identity especially in rural areas.  However, that is coming at a high cost to urban school districts who are finding their state funding pool getting shallower by the year.

Lest anyone think I'm crapping on Oklahoma as an ex-pat, I moved to one of the two states ranked worse than Oklahoma in education outcomes.  NM is 49th on that list and 36th in per pupil spending.  Oklahoma ranks 44th on per pupil spending.

The New Mexico House and Senate are under Democrat control and far as I know, have always been.  It's not like misguided slash and burn Republicans have been dominating the state for years.  I suspect much of this has to do with endemic poverty throughout the state.  I do note that our district representative has been in his seat since 1973 and our senator since 1991.  I think that is a sign of complacency in a largely rural area where perhaps people aren't paying very close attention to state level politics.

38/32 Dem to Rep HOR
26/16 Dem to Rep Senate

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AquaMan
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« Reply #451 on: May 10, 2017, 04:38:36 pm »

When I think of NM I always have a few places in mind. Albuquerque because I came out of the mountains during the evening into the valley it sits in and was entranced. Raton of course. Tucumcari. Red River is its best face. And Questa. Mostly Questa because I always figured it was the model for what Oklahoma leaders wanted us to be. Mining, politically dormant and profitable. My memory was it was a hell hole of a place.
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« Reply #452 on: May 11, 2017, 06:30:30 am »

Pony up parents....
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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #453 on: May 11, 2017, 07:34:39 am »

Pony up parents....

Exactly.  Because in the last ~ 200 years of public education in the United States no one other than the parents of the kid has ever benefited. Employers gained nothing by having daycare for their employees kids or by having literate employees later on.  The military doesn't benefit by having soldiers who can read, write, do math, know basic geography, maybe a foreign language, and think.  The economy  doesn't benefit by having skilled workers and entrepreneurs.

That's why we see countries with the least public education doing the best if measure by health, economics, or anything else really.  Haiti, Somalia, South Sudan, Myanmur, Zambia, Liberia ,Eritrea... if we could only kill public education we could get there!

The best part is, it helps stratify the classes.  If a parent can't afford education, it really helps keep the poors in their place. Plus, cheap labor... right?
- - -

But fear not, a group of Oklahoma legislators has an idea to cure our budget woes:

1) Eliminate all non-essential employees.

Thank God, someone says it.  Those morons who run education have never thought of getting rid of people they don't need.  Luckily, people who have never administered any kind of educational institute, have never seen the employee list, and doubtfully have ever looked at the line item budgets thought of it.  I bet we can bring back a lot of failed companies too, just get rid of all the non-essential employees!

2) Kill the film tax  credit.

This could save $5 million annually (assuming we admit industry tax credits and other subsidies don't produce a net result, or at least pretend that's true for the film industry but totally not true for other industries that make campaign contirbutions).  That's almost half of a percent of what we are short each year!

3) Eliminate transferable tax credits.

No way that could be complex, so I'm sure a broad brush is the best bet.

4) Detain any non-English speaking student and turn them over to the government to check their papers.  If they aren't citizens, ignore Supreme Court rulings and stop educating them.  If they are citizens, presumably let them go with a stern warning to stop the funny talk!  One must assume the most efficient way to achieve this solution is for a mass roundup and then transport by rail to get them to a central facility for proper sorting.

5) Stop promoting the state of Oklahoma.

Actually, they are talking about promotional products. I really have no idea if what they are talking about is a total waste of money or not...

http://www.news9.com/story/35398128/republicans-announce-plan-to-fill-state-budget-hole


But, no matter what, make sure we don't tax oil and gas near the same rate as other states and, for God's sake, don't even pretend reducing taxes has anything to do with the fact that we have reduced tax revenues.
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #454 on: May 11, 2017, 08:50:49 am »


Exactly.  Because in the last ~ 200 years of public education in the United States no one other than the parents of the kid has ever benefited. Employers gained nothing by having daycare for their employees kids or by having literate employees later on.  The military doesn't benefit by having soldiers who can read, write, do math, know basic geography, maybe a foreign language, and think.  The economy  doesn't benefit by having skilled workers and entrepreneurs.




Thank you!    Excellent !!

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“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #455 on: May 11, 2017, 08:59:17 am »

Having made this drive a bazillion times now in the last year going between Tulsa and our new place in Cimarron the Panhandle is etched firmly in my mind.

Boise City and Keyes are 20 miles apart or 15 minutes, yet they appear to have independent school districts from K-12.

Goodwell is 15 min from Guymon yet has its own district.




Part of the problem is how all these smaller towns grew up at about 20 to 30 miles apart.  Back when they started, you put a town about 1 full days wagon ride away from the last.  People in the middle could go to town and back in one day in a horse drawn wagon....

Today, it's a 15 minute drive....20 for a school bus...and now we have all these small entrenched local high schools around which so much local social identity revolves.  It will be difficult.   Even something as seemingly obvious and intuitive as East Central district combining with Tulsa Public schools brought turmoil.  I had friends there who maintained the "us versus them" mentality for years after the fact.  Even though the people there had voted for the combination and presumably were in favor of it...?





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“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.

What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say.
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« Reply #456 on: May 11, 2017, 09:35:04 am »


Part of the problem is how all these smaller towns grew up at about 20 to 30 miles apart.  Back when they started, you put a town about 1 full days wagon ride away from the last.  People in the middle could go to town and back in one day in a horse drawn wagon....

Today, it's a 15 minute drive....20 for a school bus...and now we have all these small entrenched local high schools around which so much local social identity revolves.  It will be difficult.   Even something as seemingly obvious and intuitive as East Central district combining with Tulsa Public schools brought turmoil.  I had friends there who maintained the "us versus them" mentality for years after the fact.  Even though the people there had voted for the combination and presumably were in favor of it...?

No time for long answer, but the logistics are harder than what the miles between schools suggest.  I grew up in a rural district, only 8.5 miles or so from the school, and the bus ride was almost an hour sometimes (depending on which end of the run I was for that day). 

If you combine two districts with where the main towns are 20 miles apart, And assuming the school would be in one of those towns,  some of the students are going to be close to 25+ miles away from the School.  Even on a direct drive, that's at least a 1/2 hour.  On a bus route, that is easily and hour or 1.5 hours twice a day, and that becomes a real problem.

There's no real getting around the distances in Western OK. Combined with the sparse population, it is simply going to cost more per student to serve that area.

     
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swake
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« Reply #457 on: May 11, 2017, 09:37:25 am »

No time for long answer, but the logistics are harder than what the miles between schools suggest.  I grew up in a rural district, only 8.5 miles or so from the school, and the bus ride was almost an hour sometimes (depending on which end of the run I was for that day). 

If you combine two districts with where the main towns are 20 miles apart, And assuming the school would be in one of those towns,  some of the students are going to be close to 25+ miles away from the School.  Even on a direct drive, that's at least a 1/2 hour.  On a bus route, that is easily and hour or 1.5 hours twice a day, and that becomes a real problem.

There's no real getting around the distances in Western OK. Combined with the sparse population, it is simply going to cost more per student to serve that area.

     

I don't think you have to close schools, just merge administrative functions. The Superintendent, HR, IT, things like that.
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rebound
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« Reply #458 on: May 11, 2017, 09:39:21 am »

I don't think you have to close schools, just merge administrative functions. The Superintendent, HR, IT, things like that.

Agree with that direction.
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #459 on: May 11, 2017, 09:49:30 am »

No time for long answer, but the logistics are harder than what the miles between schools suggest.  I grew up in a rural district, only 8.5 miles or so from the school, and the bus ride was almost an hour sometimes (depending on which end of the run I was for that day). 

If you combine two districts with where the main towns are 20 miles apart, And assuming the school would be in one of those towns,  some of the students are going to be close to 25+ miles away from the School.  Even on a direct drive, that's at least a 1/2 hour.  On a bus route, that is easily and hour or 1.5 hours twice a day, and that becomes a real problem.

There's no real getting around the distances in Western OK. Combined with the sparse population, it is simply going to cost more per student to serve that area.

     



I agree - it will be tough.  (I wasn't advocated combining those type districts, just saying there will probably be resistance.)

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“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

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What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say.
patric
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« Reply #460 on: May 11, 2017, 10:14:36 am »


Then again... here's a list of the law enforcement agencies that I think have jurisdiction within Tulsa City limits, that I could think of:


That million dollars taken from actual education just to keep things out of the paper sure could go a long ways in teachers hands.
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AquaMan
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« Reply #461 on: May 11, 2017, 10:48:26 am »

Honestly, that money is not wasted. They are leo's trained for and accustomed to student behaviors. They are less likely than regular patrolmen to over react and cause a catastrophe. The students do respect them. Now, if its parent teacher conferences? Yeah, you probably would be better with regular TPD.

My suggestion is to start from the very base point of the system and answer this question, "What is it that a good school system looks like?" and "Do we have an example from other systems of how that system would operate?" Then we can decide what parts of the puzzle fit for us. Zero budgeting till that is done.

It occurs to me that if our future development continues to be more inner city, pedestrian, mass transit and livability oriented, then we should be considering acquiring buildings downtown with the idea of creating a complex of schools, a super campus if you will, served by existing mass transit (buses, trolleys, uber, lyft) and closely integrated with TCC and OSU. It doesn't mean closing the suburban schools but recognizing that many of the next generation are not going to move there if these schools and amenities are downtown. These schools might inhabit different stories of the same building or be subject buildings, magnet buildings etc.

That comes from my experience as a child at Kendall Elementary and Central High school when it was downtown. Our proximity to upper level institutions like TU for Kendall and the business community for Central served as a multiplier effect for learning. We often had college students visiting and the sponsorship of nearby corporations.
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Conan71
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« Reply #462 on: May 11, 2017, 11:09:53 am »

I don't think you have to close schools, just merge administrative functions. The Superintendent, HR, IT, things like that.

Exactly!

There’s no need for 520 superintendents and their staff.  You really should be able to have regional superintendents with several rural counties worth of schools underneath them.  For that matter to prevent any direct job loss, administrators or superintendents could be merged into new districts with new duties then lose those positions through retirement and do buyouts of ones close to retirement age now.

I get there’s a need for IT in schools now, but how did we manage to survive without that, smart boards, etc.?

Who else here is old enough to remember AB Dick machines and the blue ink handouts?  I think I was in middle school before I ever saw a classroom handout which came off a b/w copier.
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« Reply #463 on: May 11, 2017, 11:27:17 am »

Exactly!

There’s no need for 520 superintendents and their staff.  You really should be able to have regional superintendents with several rural counties worth of schools underneath them.  For that matter to prevent any direct job loss, administrators or superintendents could be merged into new districts with new duties then lose those positions through retirement and do buyouts of ones close to retirement age now.

I get there’s a need for IT in schools now, but how did we manage to survive without that, smart boards, etc.?

Who else here is old enough to remember AB Dick machines and the blue ink handouts?  I think I was in middle school before I ever saw a classroom handout which came off a b/w copier.

Dang it,  how do you embed a YouTube video here?   I had the Fast Times at Ridgemont High test smelling scene all set up to post!

I always volunteered to print the tests out.  Nothing like working in a small room for 30 minutes with all that stuff in the air...
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patric
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« Reply #464 on: May 11, 2017, 03:34:04 pm »

Honestly, that money is not wasted. They are leo's trained for and accustomed to student behaviors. They are less likely than regular patrolmen to over react and cause a catastrophe.

If regular patrolmen arent trained for student behaviors, that seems to suggest an area we need to address quickly.

Quote
  2) Kill the film tax  credit. 

We have film in the state due much in part to the tax credit.  Eliminate the incentive and you eliminate the local jobs and incidental revenue as production companies go to DFW or KC instead.
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"Tulsa will lay off police and firemen before we will cut back on unnecessarily wasteful streetlights."  -- March 18, 2009 TulsaNow Forum
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