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December 06, 2019, 12:41:42 pm
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Author Topic: Tulsa Public Schools Spending  (Read 106034 times)
Gaspar
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« Reply #105 on: April 19, 2012, 12:32:47 pm »

No, it isn't!  To an engineer, maybe, but not for normal human nature!  Bureaucracy is what humans do.  Just like so many of us migrate to be close to the oceans (about 50% within 100 miles of an ocean across the planet) - it is programmed in there at some level.

Elegant simplicity is an engineering thing - not a normal societal thing.


Ok.  You live that way.  I like my way.  Wink

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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #106 on: April 19, 2012, 12:37:26 pm »

Ok.  You live that way.  I like my way.  Wink



Even if you aren't an engineer, you have too much technical exposure to live that way.

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"So he brandished a gun, never shot anyone or anything right?"  --TeeDub, 17 Feb 2018.

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erfalf
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« Reply #107 on: April 19, 2012, 12:52:40 pm »

My wifes family is a long line of teachers and my neighbor is a teacher.  I know the wifes family takes and took the job very seriously, many teachers expend their own money on many supplies for the class.  The primary problem I see with schools are the parents.  They take very little interest in what is going on and are looking for ways gaming the system.  

In our days, if you got in trouble at school, you were going to be getting in trouble at home.  Because our parents trusted the teachers.  These days, Parents will take the side of their kid, and say that the teacher is to blame and if they complain to the Principle, there is a good chance that the principle is not going to question the parent because it is easier to question their subordinate.  Because of this, teachers become vanilla in their approach to educating the kids.  They don't ruffle feathers, and don't expect anything more.  In many of our times, we had teachers that were gruff and were not afraid of any smurfing thing.  But those were some of the best teachers.  You didn't want to get along in their style of class?  There is the door, go chat with the principle.

Funny you say that, my wife says the same thing. Kid is an problem at school, gets disciplined, parent calls boss (principal/athletic director), boss is all up in the teachers face for doing their job and not putting up with crap. It makes teachers not want to stand up to it in fear of making waves. The boss ALWAYS takes the side of the parent, not the teacher. Or at least in this specific case he/she does.
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JCnOwasso
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« Reply #108 on: April 19, 2012, 01:07:44 pm »

As the old saying goes, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link.  Plain and simple.... some children need to be left behind.  They do not have a desire to learn and it is not and should not be the responsibility of a teacher to make that child learn.  If a parent is telling their child that a teacher is nothing more than an overpaid babysitter, it is most likely because that parent was that student.  They received nothing from school and unfortunately, that is what they are passing along to their children.  These are also the parents who think their kid is an angel and it must be the fault of the teacher.

Regardless, there is a problem and it cannot really be solved by the current processes.  They need security in schools because you have people who just don't care about learning.  They figure out other activities that they can do or groups they can get involved with, good or bad.

We try to force EVERY child into the same mold.  But, that just doesn't work.  You are setting everyone up for failure.         
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nathanm
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« Reply #109 on: April 19, 2012, 03:14:19 pm »

Elegance is simplicity.

Except when the simple approach ends up in a disastrous failure, as it so often does. Elegance and simplicity fail to account for the real world. The one that you live in, not the world as it is in your daydreams of Randian utopia.
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"Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration" --Abraham Lincoln
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« Reply #110 on: April 19, 2012, 03:17:08 pm »

some children need to be left behind

It's a lot more expensive to imprison someone than it is to educate them, even when that education requires more work than normal.
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"Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration" --Abraham Lincoln
ZYX
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« Reply #111 on: April 19, 2012, 03:25:33 pm »

Quote
 You didn't want to get along in their style of class?  There is the door, go chat with the principle.

Quote
We try to force EVERY child into the same mold.  But, that just doesn't work.  You are setting everyone up for failure.

I sense some inconsistency.
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #112 on: April 19, 2012, 03:28:11 pm »

It's a lot more expensive to imprison someone than it is to educate them, even when that education requires more work than normal.

+++++1.
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"So he brandished a gun, never shot anyone or anything right?"  --TeeDub, 17 Feb 2018.

I donít share my thoughts because I think it will change the minds of people who think differently.  I share my thoughts to show the people who already think like me that they are not alone.
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« Reply #113 on: April 19, 2012, 04:08:34 pm »

It's a lot more expensive to imprison someone than it is to educate them, even when that education requires more work than normal.

And how do you educate someone who has no desire to learn?
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JCnOwasso
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« Reply #114 on: April 19, 2012, 04:17:56 pm »

I sense some inconsistency.

Sometimes I have a hard time phrasing things the way I want... let me try that first one a little better. 

15-20 years ago- "If you don't want to learn and just cause a disruption, there is the door, go visit the principle".

Today- We are going to teach in one specific manner because instead of educating we are going to see if you can just understand through repetition... What little susie?  You want to know more about X topic?  I am sorry but that is not on the standardized tests and therefore you do not need to learn about it.  What Johnny?  You have an interest in building cars???  You know how to bore and finely tune an engine but have not grasped simple division?  Tough, you must stay in school and learn because we said so.
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AquaMan
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« Reply #115 on: April 19, 2012, 07:16:32 pm »

That is not bureaucracy.  That is process.  A little over 10 years ago, I became a fan of Michael Gerber's works because I was working with small businesses who mistook burocracy for structure.  Though they had multiple feedback loops and QCs they still faced failure because they spent more time working within the structure of their business rather than working on them.

What happens is individual employees become so crucial to the survival of the business, that if you lose one of them for some reason.  Everything crashes.  Dorris is the only person who understands how to process payroll out of the ERP system and import it into payables.  Dorris gets hit by a bus and Jim is late on his mortgage and quits, 4 venders fail to get paid and increase prices and the moon falls from the sky.  Dorris was with the business for 30 years, and payroll was one of 100 processes that were never documented.  

Process documentation also identifies waste, incompetence, and performance.  If done properly it eliminates the need for many additional layers of oversight.  Ray Kroc was never interested in selling hamburgers or french fries.  He sold the process that allowed for a consistent business model that required little oversight and training.

Businesses can either focus on process, or they can build Rube Goldberg machines.  You can use an Abram's tank to kill a fly, or you can use a fly swatter.  Either will work, but the fly swatter will offer a lower failure rate, be less expensive, and deliver a consistent result.



Silly me. I actually referred to an old business text and a dictionary. Too simply elegant I guess. Process was not the same thing, isn't the same thing. Now I know where you're coming from. "There are lies, damn lies and statistics." And there is bs, damn bs, and consultant bs. People who get paid for re-interpreting and re-labeling obvious facts to ignorant managers to suit their consultant summaries. In fact your second paragraph and Ray Kroc are the justification for creating institutional memory.

Should be a lot of consultant work opening up once you eliminate all that bureaucracy. Bon Chance!
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onward...through the fog
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« Reply #116 on: April 19, 2012, 08:05:33 pm »

Silly me. I actually referred to an old business text and a dictionary.

That'll teach you to use out of date documentation.
 
 Cheesy
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ZYX
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« Reply #117 on: April 19, 2012, 08:37:29 pm »

Sometimes I have a hard time phrasing things the way I want... let me try that first one a little better.  

15-20 years ago- "If you don't want to learn and just cause a disruption, there is the door, go visit the principle".

Today- We are going to teach in one specific manner because instead of educating we are going to see if you can just understand through repetition... What little susie?  You want to know more about X topic?  I am sorry but that is not on the standardized tests and therefore you do not need to learn about it.  What Johnny?  You have an interest in building cars???  You know how to bore and finely tune an engine but have not grasped simple division?  Tough, you must stay in school and learn because we said so.

Great! That's what I figured.

I have a question, not really directed at you specifically but towards everyone.

What do standardized tests accomplish? Now, that so many teachers' goal is to get their students to score well on the test, what has become the goal of the test?
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« Reply #118 on: April 19, 2012, 10:05:10 pm »

What do standardized tests accomplish? Now, that so many teachers' goal is to get their students to score well on the test, what has become the goal of the test?

Listening to the talk about modern education teaching to the test, I would say the standardized test has less meaning than when I was in High School.  If students are taught that 5 x 2 =10 but don't understand what that really means, then it is essentially useless information and they will not be able to expand it to 5 x 3 = 15. That's a shame.   I am as willing as the next guy to forgive typos, I make my fair share.  Not knowing the difference among: where, wear, ware; they're, their, there; two, too, and to is really inexcusable for someone with a high school diploma.  That's where I got my idea for calling it a Certificate of Attendance in an earlier post.

I am an old guy (surprise?) and have no offspring (they would be adults by now) so I haven't kept up with the teaching methods.  I believe that classroom discipline is not what it used to be (it's worse now) but I went to school in a mixed white and blue collar neighborhood, not an inner city school.  It was public school though.

Way back before rocks turned into dirt, we were taught (hopefully) the course material.  Knowing the material allowed us to do well on the standardized test.  Like any other standard, the tests provided a basis for comparison.  In this case, a way to compare what a student learned compared to what was expected at some level beyond the local school.  It helped a college in Idaho to determine the chance for success of a student applicant from Florida or New York with some degree of certainty without knowing the details of those school districts.  As a made up (obviously exaggerated) example, if a school in Poverty, OK decided that no math was required beyond 6th grade because everyone was going to work on the farm (or bore and tune engines); a student with a diploma from that school would probably not do well in Engineering, Math, Accounting and so on in college.  The standardized test would show that.  On a realistic note, my sister started 9th grade when we moved here from PA.  Ninth grade in Bixby was essentially a repeat of 8th grade in the old hometown for her.
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Gaspar
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« Reply #119 on: April 20, 2012, 08:44:08 am »

And how do you educate someone who has no desire to learn?

Two choices:

1. Force (does not work)
2. Change the way they feel about learning.
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