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November 17, 2017, 08:39:12 pm
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Author Topic: Tulsa Public Schools Spending  (Read 33027 times)
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« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2012, 05:14:15 pm »

I only marginally agree with this. I think the major problem with education is in the schools, not at home. Sure, parents need to be involved in education, and a teacher cannot complete their job without the help of parents, but the biggest problem is in the way children are taught. Administration, as well as some teachers, believe that children should be taught for the next test, and that reading a good ol' textbook is the best way to learn. Test scores look good on paper, but what is really being learned?

Written tests are probably overrated.  I know because my brother is not a good test taker.  I am a bit luckier but not as lucky as some.  At some point the student needs to demonstrate that they learned at least a minimum amount or the diploma becomes nothing more than an attendance certificate.  How do you propose that a student demonstrate some level of learning without tests of some sort?

Would you like your Physician or Dentist to have a Certificate of Attendance?  How about the Architects and Engineers that design the buildings everyone wants for "downtown"?  He**, I even want the food handlers at the fast food drive-ins to have absorbed at least enough information to wash their hands after using the rest room. If they can't remember, I hope they can read the sign saying that employees must wash their hands before returning to work.
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« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2012, 06:45:05 pm »

Written tests are probably overrated.  I know because my brother is not a good test taker.  I am a bit luckier but not as lucky as some.  At some point the student needs to demonstrate that they learned at least a minimum amount or the diploma becomes nothing more than an attendance certificate.  How do you propose that a student demonstrate some level of learning without tests of some sort?

Would you like your Physician or Dentist to have a Certificate of Attendance?  How about the Architects and Engineers that design the buildings everyone wants for "downtown"?  He**, I even want the food handlers at the fast food drive-ins to have absorbed at least enough information to wash their hands after using the rest room. If they can't remember, I hope they can read the sign saying that employees must wash their hands before returning to work.

Did I say that I'm against all testing? I think a certain amount of testing, even written tests, is neccesary. However, I don't think you should memorize answers, and then take a test. You should learn, and put into action the concept, and then take a test over it. A teacher should not be frequently saying "This will be on the test."
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AquaMan
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« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2012, 08:53:17 am »


Anyway. . .Anyone up for a voucher program?

The least we can do is take public education out of the bureaucracy of government and allow private enterprise to run it and compete for students through better programs, higher test scores, and more competitive academic offerings.

. . . or we can just throw more money at it.

My wife is a teacher (no longer practicing) and most of her friends still teach in TPS and Jenks.  They all echo the same frustrations.  Teaching has become a bureaucratic nightmare of standardized evaluation and regulation not designed to recognize the unique way that each child learns, but rather to maintain a minimum performance level for the class.  As a result, rather than cultivating excellence, the system is designed to maintain minimums.

In any education platform, parental involvement is absolutely necessary.  The best way to encourage that is to provide education as an investment, giving parents the ability to choose where to spend that investment.  When you do that, the parents "own" their child's education. 

The current system encourages irresponsible parents to view public education as free daycare.




And how would you compare those privately operated voucher schools to decide which one gets the privilege of using taxpayer dollars to educate your children? On what basis do you think they will  promote themselves to you? My limited inteface with investments and the people who promote them is negative at best.
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« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2012, 10:10:44 am »

Letter from Ballard:

Given our forecasts, below are some of the hard choices that principals may have to make:

    In secondary schools, we anticipate a reduction of about 60 teachers
    Programming cuts being considered at some schools include foreign language
    Other possible program cuts include:
        Theater, dance or orchestra
        Upper level science classes
        Low-enrollment classes
    Competitive athletics may be offered strictly as an after-school activity
In elementary schools, 25 of the 54 schools will be affected by a reduction in teachers.

No mention of the expenses of duplicating a police department, nor costs involved in their surveillance network... just a plea to parents to ask the legislature for more open-ended money.
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« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2012, 10:34:45 am »

Letter from Ballard:

Given our forecasts, below are some of the hard choices that principals may have to make:

    In secondary schools, we anticipate a reduction of about 60 teachers
    Programming cuts being considered at some schools include foreign language
    Other possible program cuts include:
        Theater, dance or orchestra
        Upper level science classes
        Low-enrollment classes
    Competitive athletics may be offered strictly as an after-school activity
In elementary schools, 25 of the 54 schools will be affected by a reduction in teachers.

No mention of the expenses of duplicating a police department, nor costs involved in their surveillance network... just a plea to parents to ask the legislature for more open-ended money.

So, you are against the taxpayer funding public school security? Even after the shootings on school campuses across the country? It is not accurate to call it a duplication. It is an extension of the department. But your focus on the evils of policing is blinding you to the fact that state legislators want to starve public education into failure, then obliteration, so that their concept of superior religious oriented private schools may fill in the vacuum.

"Look at the new boss...same as the old boss...we won't be fooled again!"  Yes, we will.
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patric
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« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2012, 11:16:10 am »

So, you are against the taxpayer funding public school security?

Nope, just the emphasis on keeping bad news out of the papers.
Most of the time you even hear of school violence now is when an angry parent calls the media.

As for how much it costs, Rep Sullivan asked for $1,647,500 just for campus police alone. http://www.washingtonwatch.com/bills/show/ED_2554.html
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« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2012, 11:44:45 am »

Nope, just the emphasis on keeping bad news out of the papers.
Most of the time you even hear of school violence now is when an angry parent calls the media.

As for how much it costs, Rep Sullivan asked for $1,647,500 just for campus police alone. http://www.washingtonwatch.com/bills/show/ED_2554.html

The millions they've spent on the Lobby Guard system at some schools is hilarious too. 

We had a musical performance for my daughter's class this morning.  They had to have 3 teachers helping parents use the Lobby Guard.  The system is incapable of scanning and reading the license of anyone.  Today my name was R0077 3AZRAR.  One of the Dads, my neighbor, keeps his Lobby Guard sticker from the first of the year stuck to his rear-view mirror in the car, and just re-affixes it when he visits his daughter.  Another neighbor thinks it's funny to use a certain movie star name from the 70's known for his impressive . . .uh. . .apendage size.

You used to have to check in with a person at the office who would check to see that you were "on the list."  Now it takes a group of three, a computer network that functions improperly, and special name-tags with a barcode that lets teachers know you are a porn star from the 70's.



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« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2012, 11:46:27 am »

Nope, just the emphasis on keeping bad news out of the papers.
Most of the time you even hear of school violence now is when an angry parent calls the media.

And there are a lot of those angry parents. Many of whom are angry at all institutions and are looking for revenge. I work in a support role for Tulsa Public Schools. As an organization, public or private, they are no better or worse than any other I've worked for. That includes a top ten oil company, one of Tulsa's major hospitals, the metro newspaper and a host of smaller companies. If anything, they are more cognizant of their public visibility and as their role as the most convenient whipping boy in town and drum it into the employees psyche. The whole world's watching...the whole world's watching.

It falls on deaf ears to me when people start a diatribe with, "Well, my wife (best friend, mother, sister et al) is a teacher and she thinks....blah, blah, blah...." You will get a different approach from every teacher and every administrator you run into because few of them have access to the full scope of their institution and the process they are faced with. They only see their little part. Most of my neighbors are presently teachers or once taught in post secondary, elementary, middle school in both public and private institutions and they would agree with these remarks. That's where they came from.

Bottom line is, public education is under assault at the state level and has been for at least a decade. State leaders lie, cheat, mislead and misinterpret in an effort to convince a gullible population that it is an unnecessary state expense that promotes liberalism and is held hostage to tyrannical labor unions. Oh...stop...you had me at liberalism! Yet when pushed to consolidate school districts in the rural areas that are rife with top heavy admistrative costs....well, we don't need no state interference. We mean them city liberals!

Play with them at your own risk. They refuse to answer direct questions like the ones I posed to Gas and are vehement in their mistrust of public education. They cannot show any improvement of learning under charter schools, private schools or home schooling without resorting to editting out the special needs, low performers and behavioral problem children that TPS is forced to handle. You might as well compare mortality rates at Hillcrest with those at St. Francis.
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« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2012, 01:34:21 pm »

Quote
But your focus on the evils of policing is blinding you to the fact that state legislators want to starve public education into failure, then obliteration, so that their concept of superior religious oriented private schools may fill in the vacuum.

Aqua, you're almost always be of the most sensible contributors on here. Do you honestly breve this?

Quote
Play with them at your own risk. They refuse to answer direct questions like the ones I posed to Gas and are vehement in their mistrust of public education. They cannot show any improvement of learning under charter schools, private schools or home schooling without resorting to editting out the special needs, low performers and behavioral problem children that TPS is forced to handle. You might as well compare mortality rates at Hillcrest with those at St. Francis.


There seems to be this misconception that private schools just kick out anyone who doesn't fit their role of a model student. I simply don't see this happening as often as popular belief. The private school where my mom works has children with disabilities, special needs, behavioral problems, whiny parents, lazy parents, etc., just like others schools. Yes, it's a very small fraction of them, but they exist, seemingly in about the same proportion as many public schools. Yet, their students are more creative, insightful, and better prepared for the world.

Maybe it's time we really stop and think about our teaching style. I believe we students are being done a disservice with public education. It's not inherently bad, but it crushes creativity, free thought, and inquiry-based learning.
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« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2012, 01:51:18 pm »

There seems to be this misconception that private schools just kick out anyone who doesn't fit their role of a model student.

Oh, no, they don't kick them out or anything that crass. They just fail to meet their responsibilities with regard to the special needs students in the hopes they'll go away. As I mentioned earlier, a friend of mine is having direct experience with that as we speak, and I've seen it elsewhere in the past.

Granted, public schools used to be the same way. However, after having their asses sued off repeatedly, the vast majority of districts have come around and provide the required accommodation without so much difficulty.

That said, as we figured out yesterday, we both agree that the teaching style in most public school classrooms leaves much to be desired.
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« Reply #40 on: April 11, 2012, 02:00:32 pm »

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Oh, no, they don't kick them out or anything that crass. They just fail to meet their responsibilities with regard to the special needs students in the hopes they'll go away. As I mentioned earlier, a friend of mine is having direct experience with that as we speak, and I've seen it elsewhere in the past.

I personally have not seen that in the private schools I've come in contact with, however, I won't deny that it happens, just not everywhere.

I'll propose this question, not as an insult to your friend, but as a sincere question.

Why would you pay to place your special needs chiod in a private school that does not fit them well?
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« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2012, 02:19:17 pm »

Why would you pay to place your special needs chiod in a private school that does not fit them well?

She wasn't diagnosed when she was placed in that school. She remains there because her father is a twit and refuses to let her attend another school.
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« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2012, 02:27:31 pm »

She wasn't diagnosed when she was placed in that school. She remains there because her father is a twit and refuses to let her attend another school.

That makes more sense. It'd be a very frustrating position to be in.
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« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2012, 02:39:25 pm »


There seems to be this misconception that private schools just kick out anyone who doesn't fit their role of a model student. I simply don't see this happening as often as popular belief. The private school where my mom works has children with disabilities, special needs, behavioral problems, whiny parents, lazy parents, etc., just like others schools. Yes, it's a very small fraction of them, but they exist, seemingly in about the same proportion as many public schools. Yet, their students are more creative, insightful, and better prepared for the world.

Maybe it's time we really stop and think about our teaching style. I believe we students are being done a disservice with public education. It's not inherently bad, but it crushes creativity, free thought, and inquiry-based learning.

I got a kick out of that too.  I thought it was opposite day for a moment.

When I was in high school I ran with a rough crowd.  Some of my acquaintances were "invited" to leave public school.  Metro Christian, Holland Hall, and Casa were where most of them landed.  In fact Metro was known as a place that took problem students from public schools and really turned them around. Not one of those kids grew up to be an adult criminal, though that was the path they were certainly on in the public system!

Private schools have a "vested" interest in the performance of each student that is measured in tuition money.  Basically each student represents money, and to get that money improvement must be measurable.  Teachers are bonused based on that improvement because it is tied directly to money.  Well performing students are every bit as important as poor performers, disabled, and disruptive students because they all equal the same amount of money.  No student represents risk, because the focus is on individual improvement rather than some imposed group minimum.

To the public schools, each student represents risk.  Fewer students represent smaller class sizes and therefore less risk.  A teacher with 12 students faces far less risk than a teacher with 27.  A teacher in a school in South Tulsa with one Hispanic student learning English as a second language faces less risk than one in East Tulsa with 13.  A child with remarkable potential who exhibits free and creative thought represents risk because he/she threatens to require more attention from the teacher to cultivate that potential, therefore putting others at risk.  A new teacher who works miracles and builds a foundation for her students that impacts their education in a positive way for the rest of their lives presents a bigger risk than the teacher who gets her students passed with the minimum requirements, but has 23 years tenure. 

To the Public school administration the world is different.  They also focus on minimums but they also focus on maintaining maximum occupancy.  Their district's future and funding is based on heads.  As long as those heads can meet minimum performance standards they are golden!  They are also top-heavy with massive administrative bureaucracy to manage a spectrum of regulations and requirements that are, in many cases, meaningless to the teachers and the students they serve.

Private schools are focused on individuals. To a private school the performance of every individual student is tied to $$$.  The performance of every individual teacher is tied to $$$.  The pedigree of being able to show interested parents statistics illustrating that 98.8% of all students went to college, and 45% to graduate school, and the wall of photos of doctors, and lawyers, and such is important, as well as references from other parents and students. The individual product and service is, as in any other business, important.  The lines between administration and teaching are blurred and in many cases non-existant.

The funny thing is that many of the private schools are comparable in price to what we spend on public school educations.  If this state offered vouchers, most parents could send their kids to the best private schools with little or no additional investment, and new educational offerings would spread like wild-fire to fill the gaps and compete for the chance to serve our greatest resource, our kids.








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« Reply #44 on: April 11, 2012, 02:56:33 pm »

I’m not so sure vouchers are necessarily the panacea to educational problems.  It’s still throwing money at a problem for which a fair amount of it starts at home, and not necessarily the school.  To my knowledge, none of the religiously-affiliated private schools around Tulsa are run as “for-profit”.

In order to keep pace with a rapid influx of new students and their vouchers, this would almost necessitate the development and construction of for-profit schools.  What happens when the for profit educators start cutting corners to maintain profitability?  Keep in mind, most of the area private schools have pretty low overhead due to a high degree of donations for their land, buildings and other improvements as well as even funds for their utilities, etc.
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