Why no interest in airport industiral park

[shadows]

Do the citizens of Tulsa think we need another industrial park in the flood plain of Mingo/Bird Creek?

The airport authority is scratching their heads and looking for the reason that no person, using nom-tax money, is interested in putting their money on the line to compete with TAIT, who across Mingo to the west, enters into long term contracts for city owned industrials buildings at a $1.00 a year.
Then also the City of Tulsa,
Tulsa Industrial Authority,
Tulsa Developing Authority,
Tulsa Economic Development Corp,
Tulsa Metro Chamber,
Oklahoma Department of Commerce, are scheduled to have their finger in the development. 
Do you think we should call the broker and see if there is a public offering available for this development? 

       

[Hoss]

Do the citizens of Tulsa think we need another industrial park in the flood plain of Mingo/Bird Creek?

The airport authority is scratching their heads and looking for the reason that no person, using nom-tax money, is interested in putting their money on the line to compete with TAIT, who across Mingo to the west, enters into long term contracts for city owned industrials buildings at a $1.00 a year.
Then also the City of Tulsa,
Tulsa Industrial Authority,
Tulsa Developing Authority,
Tulsa Economic Development Corp,
Tulsa Metro Chamber,
Oklahoma Department of Commerce, are scheduled to have their finger in the development. 
Do you think we should call the broker and see if there is a public offering available for this development? 

       

you do realize that the flooding in the mingo creek flood basin was corrected after the 1984 Memorial Day flood, right?  I lived through that (all the dredging of Mingo Creek).  I still live in the basin.  That was completely corrected almost 25 years ago!  Remember, the Flood Mitigation Plan?

Good heavens.

[Red Arrow]

you do realize that the flooding in the mingo creek flood basin was corrected after the 1984 Memorial Day flood, right?  I lived through that (all the dredging of Mingo Creek).  I still live in the basin.  That was completely corrected almost 25 years ago!  Remember, the Flood Mitigation Plan?

Good heavens.

Remember 21" of rain NW of here?  I'm just waiting for a lot of new development along the river and somewhat inland between Jenks and Bixby to get a whole new meaning of waterfront development.  We've taken care of the typical summer gully washer but the big flood will occur again.

[ZYX]

Remember 21" of rain NW of here?  I'm just waiting for a lot of new development along the river and somewhat inland between Jenks and Bixby to get a whole new meaning of waterfront development.  We've taken care of the typical summer gully washer but the big flood will occur again.

Not nearly as bad as downtown and midtown.

[shadows]

you do realize that the flooding in the mingo creek flood basin was corrected after the 1984 Memorial Day flood, right?  I lived through that (all the dredging of Mingo Creek).  I still live in the basin.  That was completely corrected almost 25 years ago!  Remember, the Flood Mitigation Plan?

Good heavens.

...
Hoss: you must have not renewed your flood insurance requiring full coverage insurance.
The flood of 86’ washed the gravel out beneath the RR tracks that cross Mingo at ½ mile North of Pine.
Public Works Director will tell you that the same flood of 86’ cannot be contained. (1% chance of happening any given year)
Having seen the floods and taking pictures of same if you are in the basin from Pine to highway 20 and they blow the flood whistle just run like hell.     

[Hoss]

...
Hoss: you must have not renewed your flood insurance requiring full coverage insurance.
The flood of 86’ washed the gravel out beneath the RR tracks that cross Mingo at ½ mile North of Pine.
Public Works Director will tell you that the same flood of 86’ cannot be contained. (1% chance of happening any given year)
Having seen the floods and taking pictures of same if you are in the basin from Pine to highway 20 and they blow the flood whistle just run like hell.     

doesn't require it anymore after the modifications.  That rider was removed.  the only undeveloped section of Mingo Creek is north of Pine.  There are several detention ponds south of it.  Use Google Maps...wait a minute...

[Red Arrow]

Not nearly as bad as downtown and midtown.

I think downtown and midtown Tulsa were mostly OK in 1988 when the Arkansas flooded big time.  Brookside had problems.  Most of Memorial south of 121st had problems.  There were a few islands that were OK.  We had some space in a ministorage in Bixby south of the river just off Memorial that stayed dry but you couldn't get into it without getting wet.  This was the flood that took out the RR between Bixby and Haskell.

[shadows]

I think downtown and midtown Tulsa were mostly OK in 1988 when the Arkansas flooded big time.  Brookside had problems.  Most of Memorial south of 121st had problems.  There were a few islands that were OK.  We had some space in a ministorage in Bixby south of the river just off Memorial that stayed dry but you couldn't get into it without getting wet.  This was the flood that took out the RR between Bixby and Haskell.

...

The 62 sq miles of the Mingo drainage basin is in constant change.  By the elevations flood waters flow into the Mingo about ten times faster than it flows down the creek.  The detention ponds were engineered for the terrain as it existed 25 years ago.  Every square foot of concrete that is poured becomes an impervious surface creating a 100% runoff. Thus the threats still exist.
All additions of buildings in the basin, drives, streets, sidewalks laid in the 25 years change the calculations of detention.  We will have floods greater than the previous flood in the basin.

Brookside is built on the sand left as the Arkansas River meandered to the south.  The flood on the Arkansas was caused when the weather bureau warned the Corps to open the gates because of the amount of water coming into Keystone.  Was in the office of the weather bureau as they watched the storm move to the NW up the Arkansas River on radar.   That flood could have breached the Keystone Dam.
The flood on the Arkansas took out the SS Line RR also.         

[Hoss]

...

The 62 sq miles of the Mingo drainage basin is in constant change.  By the elevations flood waters flow into the Mingo about ten times faster than it flows down the creek.  The detention ponds were engineered for the terrain as it existed 25 years ago.  Every square foot of concrete that is poured becomes an impervious surface creating a 100% runoff. Thus the threats still exist.
All additions of buildings in the basin, drives, streets, sidewalks laid in the 25 years change the calculations of detention.  We will have floods greater than the previous flood in the basin.

Brookside is built on the sand left as the Arkansas River meandered to the south.  The flood on the Arkansas was caused when the weather bureau warned the Corps to open the gates because of the amount of water coming into Keystone.  Was in the office of the weather bureau as they watched the storm move to the NW up the Arkansas River on radar.   That flood could have breached the Keystone Dam.
The flood on the Arkansas took out the SS Line RR also.         

Wrong.

You are so wrong I don't even know where to begin.

I've LIVED in this basin all my life.  I know how it was before the project, I know what it did after it.  Detention areas were built to mitigate any runoff.  Just because you have concrete poured doesn't mean there werent' other things done to improve it.  You know how wide Mingo Creek was from Admiral to 11th when I was growing up?  About 10 feet.  Now in that stretch it's probably close to 120 feet wide at the bank and maybe 200 feet wide at the top.  There are drains in that section.  You do know the park at 11th and Mingo (both on the north and south sides) and the big soccer field off 169 between 31st and 41st are detention ponds, right?

We had several floods in the basin before the project.  We have not had one since.  Not one.  And there have been gully washers of rains that, had the project not been done, would have more of us flooded out.  I'm certain of that.

For someone who is as old as you are, you sure don't know a lot.  Wow.

[Hoss]

Read some of this:

http://www.swt.usace.army.mil/library/tdr/2001/2001-02.pdf

It talks about the completion of the project.

Last paragraph states:

In 1992, the Federal Emergency Management Agency ranked Tulsa first in the nation in floodplain management -- giving us the nation’s lowest flood insurance rates.

And this page:

http://www.swt.usace.army.mil/PROJECTS/civil/civil_projects.cfm?number=81

Has a few words about the project as well.

EDIT:

oh, one more for good measure:

http://ou.academia.edu/MarkMeo/Papers/698407/Tulsa_turnaround_from_disaster_to_sustainability

[shadows]

Bravo there I am sure you can remember the wagon bridge at Admiral and Mingo where it closed the highway every time it rained, then the airport on the NE corner would be flooded.  I have the original drawing of the fish ponds at the bottom of the detention ponds which the city pays thousands of dollars royalty each time the dig one in the retention ponds.  Yes we are number one in flood controls. Colorado Springs was first but I understand they have abandoned it now.
I have the book the Corps published for the Senators.  The design of the detention ponds in their Tulsa’s designing lacked the key features needed to make the ponds workable.  A 4” rainstorm over 3 hours will fill the detention ponds and create flooding.  In 86’ the flood waters ran over the Pork Chop pond at 11 and Mingo. Go look at it and be informed.     
 

[RecycleMichael]

That last reference you listed was co-authored by my mother. The Corps book shadows refers to was also written by my mother. I have the same references. Shadows has some pictures, but not the engineering design pictures.

Shadows lives in the past and has been bitter about stormwater management efforts for 25 years. The city bought up the land from his neighbors, but his land was outside the city limits. That anger has clouded his memory.

[Hoss]

Bravo there I am sure you can remember the wagon bridge at Admiral and Mingo where it closed the highway every time it rained, then the airport on the NE corner would be flooded.  I have the original drawing of the fish ponds at the bottom of the detention ponds which the city pays thousands of dollars royalty each time the dig one in the retention ponds.  Yes we are number one in flood controls. Colorado Springs was first but I understand they have abandoned it now.
I have the book the Corps published for the Senators.  The design of the detention ponds in their Tulsa’s designing lacked the key features needed to make the ponds workable.  A 4” rainstorm over 3 hours will fill the detention ponds and create flooding.  In 86’ the flood waters ran over the Pork Chop pond at 11 and Mingo. Go look at it and be informed.     
 

Yeah, and in 1986 they barely started on the project.  One design was proposed initially and then rejected.  The May 6 2000 rain event proved that the mitigation worked, and they technically didn't finish the project until the following September.

And if there was a wagon bridge there it was well before the time that the CoT annexed this portion of Tulsa County.

Living through two floods in this house makes me proud of how so many people came together and hashed out difference to create something for the common good of the community.  Good thing Shadows wasn't involved...

[shadows]

That last reference you listed was co-authored by my mother. The Corps book shadows refers to was also written by my mother. I have the same references. Shadows has some pictures, but not the engineering design pictures.

Shadows lives in the past and has been bitter about stormwater management efforts for 25 years. The city bought up the land from his neighbors, but his land was outside the city limits. That anger has clouded his memory.

...

It was not my intention to rehash the flooding but the book mentioned was edited by the US printing office and given to the Senator by The Sectary of the Army (Civil Works) in the communications process covering Mingo Creek, Tulsa, Oklahoma interim on the Verdigris River Basin, Kansas and Oklahoma. Dated April 30, 1984 ordered printed under act of 1976 (Public Law 94-587) containing pictures, drawings and letters in its 533 pages.
The 65 acres of soil removed from Pork Chop (11th and Mingo) was moved to the floodway South of Pine blocking the flow.  It contains pictures of the results of no gain on storage and restricted flows.
It shows the proposed 3rd runway on the East side of Mingo Road that the Fed bureaucracies refused to finance.
 Not wanting to enter into personalities but sometimes some get too much of the pink gas in the city hall and they see everything as a bouquet of pink roses where they can double dip.

There is no need to sell the property on Mingo Road but have gotten letters from agencies advising they have foreign investors that are interested in buying property.

My intent of the post was to get opinions from citizens, as those surveys which cost the working poor thousands of dollars, are collecting dust,  pointing out the city is top heavy in the standing bureaucracies already, where personal developers, using their own money don’t want to compete on master planning with the bureaucracies.

If one enters into personalities, it is very offensive and show poor genes.  The operation of city by the silent city government, if one would resort to personalities, they could cause much grief, to where it could desecrate even some graves.     

 

[Hoss]

Something else to be proud of:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/site/printerfriendlystory.aspx?articleid=20111212_61_A11_CUTLIN257757