The Message Machine in Action

[guido911]

So what Nate? If companies are not hiring, or they are shipping jobs overseas, who's fault is it? Wall streets? Or is it our problem, created by onerous taxation (in the company's opinion-not yours), union/employee demands, litigation, environmental controls, etc...In any case, the jobs which do exist in this country belong to employers/corporations. If the under/unemployed/pee partiers want better jobs--create them.  

[nathanm]

Still in denial I see.

No, I still believe that pollsters aren't consistently off by more than 20% in their polling. As I said, when you describe liberal ideas and programs in neutral terms, people still love them. When you use words that Republicans have turned into four letter words, they don't. Clearly, nobody likes "death panels," to pick one example. They do like experts helping to keep health care costs under control by only covering procedures proven to work. They don't like "soaking the rich," but they do like a progressive tax system. They don't like big banks and large corporations, but they sure love "job creators."

The Republicans have turned themselves into the party of Orwell, and many Democrats are stupidly wanting to follow in their footsteps.

[nathanm]

So what Nate?

You're the one that told them to occupy a hard hat and a job, not me.

Besides, if the problem is taxes, why is the energy industry doing so well? Why is Germany doing so well despite their higher tax burden? Why have the billions of dollars in tax breaks since 2008 not made a difference? Why is the downturn affecting the entire world and not just high tax countries? How about some evidence for your claim?

The fundamental problem is a lack of demand, pure and simple. Why invest in anything but cash when we're staring down the barrel of deflation?

Oh, and where was that big tax increase in late 2007 that took the job gap up by over 10 million?

[guido911]

You're the one that told them to occupy a hard hat and a job, not me.

Besides, if the problem is taxes, why is the energy industry doing so well? Why is Germany doing so well despite their higher tax burden? Why have the billions of dollars in tax breaks since 2008 not made a difference? Why is the downturn affecting the entire world and not just high tax countries? How about some evidence for your claim?

The fundamental problem is a lack of demand, pure and simple. Why invest in anything but cash when we're staring down the barrel of deflation?

I told them to occupy a name tag, vest, and hair net. And if demand is the problem, then I guess the pee party has wasted its collective time. It ain't Wall Streets fault, it's the main streeters that don't want anything. Time to occupy my house I guess.

[nathanm]

I told them to occupy a name tag, vest, and hair net. And if demand is the problem, then I guess the pee party has wasted its collective time. It ain't Wall Streets fault, it's the main streeters that don't want anything.

Why would the main streeters want anything, since it'll be cheaper next month?

Who is behind the deflationary environment? Wall Street. Hoarding money and refusing to lend it, even to creditworthy borrowers, reduces the effective amount of money in circulation, which in turn reduces prices. Package that up with the uncertainty surrounding the Euro and the even greater uncertainty surrounding the essentially-secret derivatives market and it's no wonder most of us are eating smile sandwiches.

[guido911]

Why would the main streeters want anything, since it'll be cheaper next month?

Who is behind the deflationary environment? Wall Street. Hoarding money and refusing to lend it, even to creditworthy borrowers, reduces the effective amount of money in circulation, which in turn reduces prices. Package that up with the uncertainty surrounding the Euro and the even greater uncertainty surrounding the essentially-secret derivatives market and it's no wonder most of us are eating smile sandwiches.

It's everybody in the world's fault there are no jobs. As for lending money, since when are they required to do so? And why should they? We saw what happened last time money was handed out like Halloween candy.

Now, you'll excuse me. I was given a huge loan recently for a new house I haven't picked out yet and I have to plan my next cruise. Loving life right now.

[Conan71]

Why would the main streeters want anything, since it'll be cheaper next month?

Who is behind the deflationary environment? Wall Street. Hoarding money and refusing to lend it, even to creditworthy borrowers, reduces the effective amount of money in circulation, which in turn reduces prices. Package that up with the uncertainty surrounding the Euro and the even greater uncertainty surrounding the essentially-secret derivatives market and it's no wonder most of us are eating smile sandwiches.

Sure, it's the shadow government on Wall Street, Nate.  Always blame the unseen bogeyman or the previous administration.  Certainly this would have nothing to do with sustained high fuel prices the last three years, nor Americans refusal to protect jobs in the U.S. by paying more for better goods which could still be produced in the U.S. 

Probably the biggest failing of the Obama administration is understanding that high fuel prices have robbed every other segment of the consumer economy this entire time.  Rather than cracking down on traders doing nothing but swapping paper which falsely inflates the price of gas, or giving oil companies the green light to go for much easier energy to harness, they have pandered to the darlings of the left like solar, ethanol, or bio-diesel.

[Red Arrow]

No, I still believe that pollsters aren't consistently off by more than 20% in their polling. As I said, when you describe liberal ideas and programs in neutral terms, people still love them.

It's not really the ideals and goals that are rejected. Even Republicans don't really want to stave poor people and so forth.   It's the methods to get there that are usually rejected. You (liberals) won in 2008.  Not so much in 2010.  We will see in 2012.

[nathanm]

You seem to think I believe there's a conspiracy afoot. I don't. I believe rational actors are each doing what appears to individually be the correct course of action. (at least in most cases, the ECB may be an exception) It just so happens that the combination of these individually rational actions are leading us to a bad end. That's what happened in the Great Depression and it's what has been happening in Japan for much of the last two decades.

I agree that energy costs are being driven up by useless speculation, but I don't think that's having so much an effect on the broader economy. I'll investigate further, but at first glance there doesn't appear to be a (recent) significant correlation between energy costs and broad economic measures. Maybe there will be something in the more specific data.

Well, I should note that there are in fact conspiracies afoot, but the money hoarding thing isn't one of them. There is a conspiracy in several large banks to illegally foreclose on homes. There appears to be a conspiracy in both the banks and much of government to let the banks get off lightly for this bad behavior.

RA, 2012 will probably be bad for all incumbents, regardless of party.

[Red Arrow]

RA, 2012 will probably be bad for all incumbents, regardless of party.

For the most part, I hope so.

[Townsend]

I saw that Perry's message is that Obama has a war against religion.  Some commercial for his campaign this morning.

What a stupid dumbass.

[nathanm]

I saw that Perry's message is that Obama has a war against religion.  Some commercial for his campaign this morning.

I believed he also accused Obama of having cut defense spending. It must be nice to be so insulated from reality that you can't even tell when one number is bigger or smaller than another number.

[Hoss]

I saw that Perry's message is that Obama has a war against religion.  Some commercial for his campaign this morning.

What a stupid dumbass.

What do you expect for a guy who can't remember three things at once?

[dbacks fan]

He alienated a large voting block in the first ten seconds with the comment about gays in the military. "BANG" What was that? Perry shot himself in both feet with one shot.

[Conan71]

Is Perry even still running?  I thought he and Cain were banging hanging around together or chasing skirts.