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Author Topic: Another stab at liquor law reform  (Read 201188 times)
swake
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« Reply #495 on: May 27, 2016, 08:58:45 am »

What all does this contain?

I saw an earlier version included liquor stores to be able to sell non-alcohol items so long as they don't exceed 20% of sales and that liquor stores could open on Sundays and Holidays and be open until 2:00 AM? Was all of that kept in the bill?

Just exactly what all is in the final passed versions of these bills?
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« Reply #496 on: May 27, 2016, 09:16:24 am »

What all does this contain?

I saw an earlier version included liquor stores to be able to sell non-alcohol items so long as they don't exceed 20% of sales and that liquor stores could open on Sundays and Holidays and be open until 2:00 AM? Was all of that kept in the bill?

Just exactly what all is in the final passed versions of these bills?

I understand that portion (allowing liquor stores to sell non-alcoholic items) was left in so it's part of it.

I'm sure you can find the bills on the Oklahoma gubmint website.

OK, I went ahead and found them.

http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf_pdf/2015-16%20COMMITTEE%20SUBS/SCCS/SB383%20CCS.PDF

http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf_pdf/2015-16%20ENR/SB/SB424%20ENR.PDF

http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf_pdf/2015-16%20SUPPORT%20DOCUMENTS/BILLSUM/House/SJR68%20FA2%20BILLSUM.PDF
« Last Edit: May 27, 2016, 09:23:41 am by Hoss » Logged

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swake
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« Reply #497 on: May 27, 2016, 10:38:09 am »

I understand that portion (allowing liquor stores to sell non-alcoholic items) was left in so it's part of it.

I'm sure you can find the bills on the Oklahoma gubmint website.

OK, I went ahead and found them.

http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf_pdf/2015-16%20COMMITTEE%20SUBS/SCCS/SB383%20CCS.PDF

http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf_pdf/2015-16%20ENR/SB/SB424%20ENR.PDF

http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf_pdf/2015-16%20SUPPORT%20DOCUMENTS/BILLSUM/House/SJR68%20FA2%20BILLSUM.PDF

So I skimmed these, and good lord, the title of SB383  is seven pages long.  There’s a good 100 pages defining what Smoot and Company can and can’t do and how they do it.  There are dozens of pages on beer distribution, I’m sure written with the kind assistance of AB InBev. Dozens more on liquor distribution and taxes, taxes, taxes. I did not read all of these pages.

Here’s what I found skimming the other more relevant pages:

•   Package Stores are now allowed to have refrigerated items starting 10/1/2018
•   Brewpubs, Brewers and Winemakers can sell beer for both onsite and offsite consumption and can offer samples, they can also self-distribute their beer and wine up to a certain amount of sales. distilleries can offer samples
•   Out of state brewers can also self-distribute if they can’t find a distributor willing to do so for them
•   No liquor stores or bars within 300 feet of school or churches buildings except for universities inside of improvement districts when the university agrees.
•   Liquor store chains are now allowed, but are limited to TWO stores and only individuals can own stores. I would now expect Parkhill’s to grow to four stores with two owned by the husband and two by the wife.
•   Liquor stores can sell anything a convenience or grocery store can, but those items are capped at 20% of sales
•   Wine makers can directly sell wine to out of state customers by mail, I couldn’t find if the reverse was true where Oklahomans could order wine and have it delivered from out of state.
•   Selling liquor by the drink in counties where it is allowed will be allowed on election days, holidays and Sundays may be restricted by county option
•   It Establishes a Viticulture and Enology Center on the campus of Redlands Community College (what?)
•   You have to be 18 to sell beer and wine, 21 for liquor
•   You can’t win free drinks
•   You can’t sell someone more than two drinks at one time
•   No selling alcohol for less than 6% below cost, so no penny beer nights
•   Happy Hours are back (I think, the wording is odd and I’m no lawyer)
•   No drinking games in bars
•   Liquor stores will be open from 10:00am to Midnight but will be closed on Sundays, Thanksgiving and Christmas
•   You still have to be 21 to enter a liquor store or bar or designated bar area

Now the really fun stuff:
•   You cannot sell liquor and allow “The performance by any person of acts, or simulated acts, of sexual intercourse, masturbation, sodomy, bestiality, oral copulation, flagellation or any sexual acts which are otherwise prohibited by law” nor can you “The actual intentional touching or caressing or fondling by any person of the breasts, anus or genitals” nor “expose to view any portion of the areola of the female breast or any portion of the pubic hair, buttocks or genitals” (nipples are the devil!)
•   Lastly, can’t sell liquor and have “Any person to perform acts of, or acts which simulate, sexual acts which are prohibited by law, or permit any person to use artificial devices or inanimate objects to depict any prohibited activities or permit the showing of films, still pictures, electronic reproductions or other visual reproductions depicting any of the prohibited activities described in this paragraph” (So, movie theaters like Warren that sell liquor can’t show movies with nudity?)
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Hoss
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« Reply #498 on: May 27, 2016, 11:09:33 am »

So I skimmed these, and good lord, the title of SB383  is seven pages long.  There’s a good 100 pages defining what Smoot and Company can and can’t do and how they do it.  There are dozens of pages on beer distribution, I’m sure written with the kind assistance of AB InBev. Dozens more on liquor distribution and taxes, taxes, taxes. I did not read all of these pages.

Here’s what I found skimming the other more relevant pages:

•   Package Stores are now allowed to have refrigerated items starting 10/1/2018
•   Brewpubs, Brewers and Winemakers can sell beer for both onsite and offsite consumption and can offer samples, they can also self-distribute their beer and wine up to a certain amount of sales. distilleries can offer samples
•   Out of state brewers can also self-distribute if they can’t find a distributor willing to do so for them
•   No liquor stores or bars within 300 feet of school or churches buildings except for universities inside of improvement districts when the university agrees.
•   Liquor store chains are now allowed, but are limited to TWO stores and only individuals can own stores. I would now expect Parkhill’s to grow to four stores with two owned by the husband and two by the wife.
•   Liquor stores can sell anything a convenience or grocery store can, but those items are capped at 20% of sales
•   Wine makers can directly sell wine to out of state customers by mail, I couldn’t find if the reverse was true where Oklahomans could order wine and have it delivered from out of state.
•   Selling liquor by the drink in counties where it is allowed will be allowed on election days, holidays and Sundays may be restricted by county option
•   It Establishes a Viticulture and Enology Center on the campus of Redlands Community College (what?)
•   You have to be 18 to sell beer and wine, 21 for liquor
•   You can’t win free drinks
•   You can’t sell someone more than two drinks at one time
•   No selling alcohol for less than 6% below cost, so no penny beer nights
•   Happy Hours are back (I think, the wording is odd and I’m no lawyer)
•   No drinking games in bars
•   Liquor stores will be open from 10:00am to Midnight but will be closed on Sundays, Thanksgiving and Christmas
•   You still have to be 21 to enter a liquor store or bar or designated bar area

Now the really fun stuff:
•   You cannot sell liquor and allow “The performance by any person of acts, or simulated acts, of sexual intercourse, masturbation, sodomy, bestiality, oral copulation, flagellation or any sexual acts which are otherwise prohibited by law” nor can you “The actual intentional touching or caressing or fondling by any person of the breasts, anus or genitals” nor “expose to view any portion of the areola of the female breast or any portion of the pubic hair, buttocks or genitals” (nipples are the devil!)
•   Lastly, can’t sell liquor and have “Any person to perform acts of, or acts which simulate, sexual acts which are prohibited by law, or permit any person to use artificial devices or inanimate objects to depict any prohibited activities or permit the showing of films, still pictures, electronic reproductions or other visual reproductions depicting any of the prohibited activities described in this paragraph” (So, movie theaters like Warren that sell liquor can’t show movies with nudity?)


I think the link I provided you may just be slight older than the bill passed.  I remember hearing that the restriction for liquor stores to cap their non-alcoholic sales to 20% was removed.
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Libertarianism is a system of beliefs for people who think adolescence is the epitome of human achievement.

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Somebody find Guido an ambulance to chase...
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« Reply #499 on: May 27, 2016, 11:19:00 am »


•   You cannot sell liquor and allow “The performance by any person of acts, or simulated acts, of sexual intercourse, masturbation, sodomy, bestiality, oral copulation, flagellation or any sexual acts which are otherwise prohibited by law” nor can you “The actual intentional touching or caressing or fondling by any person of the breasts, anus or genitals” nor “expose to view any portion of the areola of the female breast or any portion of the pubic hair, buttocks or genitals” (nipples are the devil!)


Well F...there goes Sally Kern Tuesdays at Reasors.
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swake
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« Reply #500 on: May 27, 2016, 11:34:49 am »

I think the link I provided you may just be slight older than the bill passed.  I remember hearing that the restriction for liquor stores to cap their non-alcoholic sales to 20% was removed.

well hell, I'm not reading that crap again.....
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dbacksfan 2.0
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« Reply #501 on: May 27, 2016, 12:05:55 pm »

Well F...there goes Sally Kern Tuesdays at Reasors.

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Conan71
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« Reply #502 on: May 27, 2016, 06:30:16 pm »

So I skimmed these, and good lord, the title of SB383  is seven pages long.  There’s a good 100 pages defining what Smoot and Company can and can’t do and how they do it.  There are dozens of pages on beer distribution, I’m sure written with the kind assistance of AB InBev. Dozens more on liquor distribution and taxes, taxes, taxes. I did not read all of these pages.

Here’s what I found skimming the other more relevant pages:

•   Package Stores are now allowed to have refrigerated items starting 10/1/2018
•   Brewpubs, Brewers and Winemakers can sell beer for both onsite and offsite consumption and can offer samples, they can also self-distribute their beer and wine up to a certain amount of sales. distilleries can offer samples
•   Out of state brewers can also self-distribute if they can’t find a distributor willing to do so for them
•   No liquor stores or bars within 300 feet of school or churches buildings except for universities inside of improvement districts when the university agrees.
•   Liquor store chains are now allowed, but are limited to TWO stores and only individuals can own stores. I would now expect Parkhill’s to grow to four stores with two owned by the husband and two by the wife.
•   Liquor stores can sell anything a convenience or grocery store can, but those items are capped at 20% of sales
•   Wine makers can directly sell wine to out of state customers by mail, I couldn’t find if the reverse was true where Oklahomans could order wine and have it delivered from out of state.
•   Selling liquor by the drink in counties where it is allowed will be allowed on election days, holidays and Sundays may be restricted by county option
•   It Establishes a Viticulture and Enology Center on the campus of Redlands Community College (what?)
•   You have to be 18 to sell beer and wine, 21 for liquor
•   You can’t win free drinks
•   You can’t sell someone more than two drinks at one time
•   No selling alcohol for less than 6% below cost, so no penny beer nights
•   Happy Hours are back (I think, the wording is odd and I’m no lawyer)
•   No drinking games in bars
•   Liquor stores will be open from 10:00am to Midnight but will be closed on Sundays, Thanksgiving and Christmas
•   You still have to be 21 to enter a liquor store or bar or designated bar area

Now the really fun stuff:
•   You cannot sell liquor and allow “The performance by any person of acts, or simulated acts, of sexual intercourse, masturbation, sodomy, bestiality, oral copulation, flagellation or any sexual acts which are otherwise prohibited by law” nor can you “The actual intentional touching or caressing or fondling by any person of the breasts, anus or genitals” nor “expose to view any portion of the areola of the female breast or any portion of the pubic hair, buttocks or genitals” (nipples are the devil!)
•   Lastly, can’t sell liquor and have “Any person to perform acts of, or acts which simulate, sexual acts which are prohibited by law, or permit any person to use artificial devices or inanimate objects to depict any prohibited activities or permit the showing of films, still pictures, electronic reproductions or other visual reproductions depicting any of the prohibited activities described in this paragraph” (So, movie theaters like Warren that sell liquor can’t show movies with nudity?)


So...accidental anal touching is okay then?
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Townsend
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« Reply #503 on: May 31, 2016, 11:57:03 am »

So...accidental anal touching is okay then?

That is when the dolphin sounds begin
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Hoss
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« Reply #504 on: May 31, 2016, 01:50:40 pm »

So...accidental anal touching is okay then?

UFIA?
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Libertarianism is a system of beliefs for people who think adolescence is the epitome of human achievement.

Global warming isn't real because it was cold today.  Also great news: world famine is over because I just ate - Stephen Colbert.

Somebody find Guido an ambulance to chase...
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« Reply #505 on: August 01, 2016, 12:20:25 pm »

Judge Denies Plea to Block Oklahoma Alcohol Ballot Measure

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/judge-denies-plea-block-oklahoma-alcohol-ballot-measure

Quote
An Oklahoma County judge has denied a retail liquor group's request to block a November ballot measure on whether strong beer and wine can be sold in grocery stores.

District Judge Aletia Haynes Timmons denied an injunction Monday that was sought by the Retail Liquor Association of Oklahoma. However, Timmons says she has questions about the constitutionality of the proposal and will schedule a hearing later to decide that issue.

The retail liquor group claims in a lawsuit that the ballot measure's proposed changes are unconstitutional because they would treat liquor-license holders less favorably than supermarkets and convenience stores.

The ballot measure authorizes changes to Oklahoma's alcohol laws beginning in 2018, including allowing the sale of strong beer in grocery stores. Strong beer currently must be sold in liquor stores.
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Hoss
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« Reply #506 on: August 01, 2016, 01:00:47 pm »


Good.  Wondered how that turned out when I saw it in my news feeds.

However reading the article left me with the impression that after the judge reviews, there is still a possibility of injunctive relief.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2016, 01:02:23 pm by Hoss » Logged

Libertarianism is a system of beliefs for people who think adolescence is the epitome of human achievement.

Global warming isn't real because it was cold today.  Also great news: world famine is over because I just ate - Stephen Colbert.

Somebody find Guido an ambulance to chase...
cannon_fodder
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« Reply #507 on: August 01, 2016, 04:26:13 pm »

For those interested, the case is here.  The brief for the injunction (anti-liquor law change) is here. The response (pro-liquor law change) is here.

First, an temporary injunction is only granted if 1) the requesting party has a reasonable probability of success, 2) the risk of injury/damage for not granting the injunction is greater than the risk of granting it, AND 3) it is in public interest.

The Retail Liquor Association of Oklahoma, or ReaL donkey Oo (tortured acronyms are fun), argued Equal Protection and Unconstitutionally Vague. Everyone always argues too vague, no fun there. The Equal Protection argument is more interesting.

Under equal protection the government cannot arbitrarily treat similarly situation groups differently for no good reason. Or, more technically, without a compelling governmental interest for protected classes, or, in this circumstance, at least a rational basis for doing so. Rational basis is a fairly easy standard for the government to reach...so they were fighting an uphill battle to start.

ReaL donkey Oo argued it violated Equal Protection by:

1) Limits the number of Retail Spirits Licenses (liquor stores) to 2, does not limited number of licenses for beer and wine vendors.  I.e., QT can have 500 stores but Ranch Acres Liquor and spirits can only have 2.  2) Sales of non-liquor items limited to 20% of total sales for liquor stores, no limited for retail beer or wine stores. 3) Residency and entity type restrictions for liquor stores, none for beer and wine. and 4) Out of State Wholesaler contracts (not real clear on this one).

Unfortunately, all the Court had to find was find that they weren't entitled to an injunction under the three part test, or that the State had a rational basis for treating liquor sales different than beer or wine sales. Given our state's history of legislating morality, and of alcohol being such a vice, that isn't a stretch for the Court to find. In fact, we've been treating liquor stores differently for decades and I suspect they'd be even more upset if it was truly equal (fine, everyone sell whatever you want).

Not a frivolous argument, there are significant differences between groups that are both selling alcohol. But, if you classify the groups as liquor sellers, beer sellers, and wine sellers... no dice. Or if you say the government has a rational basis for treating liquor stores differently, no dice.

Predictably, Oklahoma Attorney General Scott Pruitt, or OK Attorney GraSP, argued the Court lacks jurisdiction (ballot challenges must be filed in OK Supreme Court), the challenge is not ripe (can't challenge unless approved by the People), and they should otherwise fail because 1) the Court has repeatedly upheld the right to treat persons in the alcohol industry different among classes, 2) they don't know what they are talking about, and 3) it isn't vague.

OK Attorney GraSP won the day (I think he's 3 for 42*). No injunction. Ballots print at the end of August. They have to be mailed to service members overseas sometime in September. And Alcohol progress marches on.


The actual ballot question will read:

PRELIMINARY BALLOT TITLE FOR STATE QUESTION No. 792
This measure repeals Article 28 Qf the Oklahoma Constitution and restructures the laws
governing alcoholic beverages through a new Article 28A and other laws the Legislature will
create if the measure passes.
The new Article 28A provides that with exceptions, a person or company can have an ownership
interest in only one area of the alcoholic beverage business-manufacturing, wholesaling, or
retailing. Some restrictions apply to the sales of manufacturers, brewers, winemakers, and
wholesalers. Subject to limitations, the Legislature may authorize direct shipments to consumers
of wine.
Retail locations like grocery stores may sell wine and beer. Liquor stores may sell products other
than alcoholic beverages in limited amounts.
The Legislature must create licenses for retail locations, liquor stores, and places serving
alcoholic beverages and may create other licenses. Certain licensees must meet residency
requirements. Felons cannot be licensees.
The Legislature must designate days and hours when alcoholic beverages may be sold and may
impose taxes on sales. Municipalities may levy an occupation tax. If authorized, a state lodge
may sell individual alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption but no other state
involvement in the alcoholic beverage business is allowed.
With one exception, the measure will take effect October 1,2018.


*not an official tally, a totally made up number actually.
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Hoss
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« Reply #508 on: August 01, 2016, 04:46:04 pm »

For those interested, the case is here.  The brief for the injunction (anti-liquor law change) is here. The response (pro-liquor law change) is here.

First, an temporary injunction is only granted if 1) the requesting party has a reasonable probability of success, 2) the risk of injury/damage for not granting the injunction is greater than the risk of granting it, AND 3) it is in public interest.

The Retail Liquor Association of Oklahoma, or ReaL donkey Oo (tortured acronyms are fun), argued Equal Protection and Unconstitutionally Vague. Everyone always argues too vague, no fun there. The Equal Protection argument is more interesting.

Under equal protection the government cannot arbitrarily treat similarly situation groups differently for no good reason. Or, more technically, without a compelling governmental interest for protected classes, or, in this circumstance, at least a rational basis for doing so. Rational basis is a fairly easy standard for the government to reach...so they were fighting an uphill battle to start.

ReaL donkey Oo argued it violated Equal Protection by:

1) Limits the number of Retail Spirits Licenses (liquor stores) to 2, does not limited number of licenses for beer and wine vendors.  I.e., QT can have 500 stores but Ranch Acres Liquor and spirits can only have 2.  2) Sales of non-liquor items limited to 20% of total sales for liquor stores, no limited for retail beer or wine stores. 3) Residency and entity type restrictions for liquor stores, none for beer and wine. and 4) Out of State Wholesaler contracts (not real clear on this one).

Unfortunately, all the Court had to find was find that they weren't entitled to an injunction under the three part test, or that the State had a rational basis for treating liquor sales different than beer or wine sales. Given our state's history of legislating morality, and of alcohol being such a vice, that isn't a stretch for the Court to find. In fact, we've been treating liquor stores differently for decades and I suspect they'd be even more upset if it was truly equal (fine, everyone sell whatever you want).

Not a frivolous argument, there are significant differences between groups that are both selling alcohol. But, if you classify the groups as liquor sellers, beer sellers, and wine sellers... no dice. Or if you say the government has a rational basis for treating liquor stores differently, no dice.

Predictably, Oklahoma Attorney General Scott Pruitt, or OK Attorney GraSP, argued the Court lacks jurisdiction (ballot challenges must be filed in OK Supreme Court), the challenge is not ripe (can't challenge unless approved by the People), and they should otherwise fail because 1) the Court has repeatedly upheld the right to treat persons in the alcohol industry different among classes, 2) they don't know what they are talking about, and 3) it isn't vague.

OK Attorney GraSP won the day (I think he's 3 for 42*). No injunction. Ballots print at the end of August. They have to be mailed to service members overseas sometime in September. And Alcohol progress marches on.


The actual ballot question will read:

PRELIMINARY BALLOT TITLE FOR STATE QUESTION No. 792
This measure repeals Article 28 Qf the Oklahoma Constitution and restructures the laws
governing alcoholic beverages through a new Article 28A and other laws the Legislature will
create if the measure passes.
The new Article 28A provides that with exceptions, a person or company can have an ownership
interest in only one area of the alcoholic beverage business-manufacturing, wholesaling, or
retailing. Some restrictions apply to the sales of manufacturers, brewers, winemakers, and
wholesalers. Subject to limitations, the Legislature may authorize direct shipments to consumers
of wine.
Retail locations like grocery stores may sell wine and beer. Liquor stores may sell products other
than alcoholic beverages in limited amounts.
The Legislature must create licenses for retail locations, liquor stores, and places serving
alcoholic beverages and may create other licenses. Certain licensees must meet residency
requirements. Felons cannot be licensees.
The Legislature must designate days and hours when alcoholic beverages may be sold and may
impose taxes on sales. Municipalities may levy an occupation tax. If authorized, a state lodge
may sell individual alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption but no other state
involvement in the alcoholic beverage business is allowed.
With one exception, the measure will take effect October 1,2018.


*not an official tally, a totally made up number actually.

Wow, two years to implement?  I know many people think Oklahomans are slow, but this slow?  Wow.
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Libertarianism is a system of beliefs for people who think adolescence is the epitome of human achievement.

Global warming isn't real because it was cold today.  Also great news: world famine is over because I just ate - Stephen Colbert.

Somebody find Guido an ambulance to chase...
Townsend
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« Reply #509 on: August 02, 2016, 11:54:11 am »

Wow, two years to implement?  I know many people think Oklahomans are slow, but this slow?  Wow.

Time for lawsuits
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