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November 21, 2017, 06:13:13 am
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Author Topic: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justice center  (Read 21519 times)
Townsend
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« Reply #135 on: June 13, 2016, 02:21:47 pm »

yes.

read earlier comments

Okay.  Maybe I will.
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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #136 on: June 13, 2016, 04:52:50 pm »

What's the location?  When the Tulsa World say's "north of downtown," I think Brady Heights.  I think they think north of the RR tracks. 

Can someone explain what corner /street we're talking about?  Is this that lot between Guthrie and Elwood, just north of the tracks?

Directly across the street to the south of the Day Center for the Homeless and the Salvation Army on Archer. Looking at Google Maps, it is marked "Story Wrecker," on the Satellite view you will see a ton of cars mixed in with old tin industrial buildings. It will demolish all existing structures between Archer and the tracks, and between Elwood and Guthrie.

I'm with you on that stretch of Guthrie being potentially cool. Clearly Story Wrecker wasn't helping the area, but this likely seals off new development unless related services go in. Hopefully  it can help and I'm being ignorant of a greater impact. Then again - as I mentioned above, this area is handicapped for development anyway due to the other items that area already there. And this new Center is badly needed.

While they do not have renderings available (that I have found online) they released a basic site plan.


This is the original rendering from Selser Schaefer when the tax was proposed, but it appears to have a complete redesign specifically for this site. And the firm no longer lists the project on its website.




The building has to go somewhere. While it would be awesome if this little niche of downtown developed quirky and cool - it has things working against it. Seems like as good of a place as any I suppose. To try and think positive, maybe the increased traffic and police presence will enable those little store fronts to do something synergistic to the Center.
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rdj
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« Reply #137 on: June 14, 2016, 10:51:34 am »

I actually like this site.  Because of the issues stated it was going to be a tough spot to develop.  The railroad track creates a natural barrier for development anyway.  The biggest issue IMO is that is makes the entrance into Crosby Heights/Owen Park a bit tougher to transform into any kind of a pedestrian friendly area.  That was going to be difficult anyway because of the other social services along Archer.
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« Reply #138 on: June 14, 2016, 01:40:20 pm »

Um.... how many kids will drive to the detention center?  Or do they want to sell parking for BOK events?  

A couple problems: 1) ridiculous amount of parking... can someone tell them that there are no parking requirements downtown and that kids in detention centers probably get "dropped off?" 2) wish that they could line the parking lots on Archer and Guthrie with actual buildings. 3) appears to demolish several cool old buildings that could be neat if they were fixed up and incorporated into the design.

Obviously, some architecture firms specialize in schools/prisons, so they probably don't also specialize in adaptive reuse. (But maybe I'm wrong. It's hard to tell from the drawings, how much of that might re-use some of the existing brick buildings. Who knows.)
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 01:44:49 pm by PonderInc » Logged
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« Reply #139 on: June 14, 2016, 09:41:28 pm »

This project involves much more than juvenile detention. Tulsa County is authorized under state law to operate a juvenile bureau, which is a kind of one-stop shopping mall for all things juvenile. So the center would house intake workers and treatment workers for both "delinquent" and "deprived" cases, along with courtrooms, judges' chambers, a court clerk satellite office, and offices for the assistant district attorneys and public defenders who work in that court system. Some juvenile cases are complicated and involve many witnesses, lawyers for the state, the children, and the parents (often one for each parent), and jurors. The current center has several courtrooms. Juvenile dockets in each courtroom can involve many cases simultaneously, so you multiply the participants by the number of cases and by the number of courtrooms, though the same lawyers are often involved in multiple cases if they work regularly. The current Juvenile Bureau facility on Charles Page Blvd and 25th W. Ave. was seriously inadequate for the number of cases it handled, and parking was an absolute nightmare. This looks about right to me.

Um.... how many kids will drive to the detention center?  Or do they want to sell parking for BOK events?  

A couple problems: 1) ridiculous amount of parking... can someone tell them that there are no parking requirements downtown and that kids in detention centers probably get "dropped off?" 2) wish that they could line the parking lots on Archer and Guthrie with actual buildings. 3) appears to demolish several cool old buildings that could be neat if they were fixed up and incorporated into the design.

Obviously, some architecture firms specialize in schools/prisons, so they probably don't also specialize in adaptive reuse. (But maybe I'm wrong. It's hard to tell from the drawings, how much of that might re-use some of the existing brick buildings. Who knows.)
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« Reply #140 on: June 15, 2016, 08:44:53 am »

Having been to the old juvenile facility, I can attest that it was grossly inadequate. Social services and juvenile together had may 150 parking places. BUT - the new facility looks to have in excess of 500 parking spaces. If you can get by with 150 with some headache, it seems reasonable to question if 500 is overkill.
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« Reply #141 on: June 15, 2016, 08:54:56 am »

You all missed this part of the article in the World:
Quote
County officials said they considered the site two years ago at a cheaper price but were told it would require significant environmental remediation. Officials said further investigation showed any environmental issues with the site can be covered up by the foundation of the structure and a parking lot.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/tulsa-county-commission-votes-to-buy-downtown-site-for-new/article_dbd8d5e3-768a-588f-9419-068fe7c4afca.html

It's all a parking lot so they don't have to do remidiation on the land.

The better question is how on earth is this dirty lot needing millions in remediation worth five million dollars?

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DowntownDan
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« Reply #142 on: June 15, 2016, 10:58:38 am »

I guess that corner of the IDL has been officially designated as a throwaway for development, so I guess the parking doesn't really matter.  It was gonna be a tough sell anyway for retail/service/housing to go in across from a jail and next to the Day Center.  What I don't like is that it kind of sends the wrong message to these kids who need help more than anything.  Kind of gives the impression that it's a one stop shop for wayward youth--next stop jail or the homeless shelter--instead of a place to help them get their lives on track.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2016, 11:00:15 am by DowntownDan » Logged
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« Reply #143 on: June 15, 2016, 11:37:25 am »

Um.... how many kids will drive to the detention center?  Or do they want to sell parking for BOK events? 

A couple problems: 1) ridiculous amount of parking... can someone tell them that there are no parking requirements downtown and that kids in detention centers probably get "dropped off?" 2) wish that they could line the parking lots on Archer and Guthrie with actual buildings. 3) appears to demolish several cool old buildings that could be neat if they were fixed up and incorporated into the design.

Obviously, some architecture firms specialize in schools/prisons, so they probably don't also specialize in adaptive reuse. (But maybe I'm wrong. It's hard to tell from the drawings, how much of that might re-use some of the existing brick buildings. Who knows.)

Ironic that it is across from the historic Hanging Tree.

The rendering doesnt show lighting.  Prisons tend to be lit like, um, prisons, designed by people whose only understanding of lighting is "all we can get."

Oh, you need to SEE?  Try eliminating glare. That means something better than floodlights, unshielded wallpacks, etc.
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« Reply #144 on: June 15, 2016, 11:45:54 am »

I guess that corner of the IDL has been officially designated as a throwaway for development, so I guess the parking doesn't really matter.  It was gonna be a tough sell anyway for retail/service/housing to go in across from a jail and next to the Day Center.  What I don't like is that it kind of sends the wrong message to these kids who need help more than anything.  Kind of gives the impression that it's a one stop shop for wayward youth--next stop jail or the homeless shelter--instead of a place to help them get their lives on track.

I transported kids to the TPS alternative school at Roosevelt in Owen Park and passed through this area daily last spring. Real troubled kids whose future I harbor great concern. I used to stop at the corner next to the Storey wrecker building and point out the new construction around Moss Correctional and wryly remark that it should be ready for them in a few years. That is my concern. It appears we are visually and in fact, setting up an alternative path for these kids. Conveniently located near each other will be a juvenile center, a day center and a correctional facility. Three steps in their evolution to prison. Every day the mental cases, substance abusers and those who prey on them are driving through or sitting on the curbs waiting. Waiting to sober up, or get help or just hang out in the shade. Some are getting needed help too. I know the Salvation Army does good service. But, the kids can see a progression. They can see their friends and family too. Its very disturbing to me. Maybe its a version of "scared straight".

However, I have experience both serving on a jury in the old juvenile justice center and with my child who earned some time there. They need a better facility and proximity to the courthouse. Too bad we couldn't just move the whole system, including the city jail and courthouse, out to the edges of the city and open this land up.
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« Reply #145 on: June 15, 2016, 12:19:54 pm »

I actually like this site.  Because of the issues stated it was going to be a tough spot to develop.  The railroad track creates a natural barrier for development anyway.  The biggest issue IMO is that is makes the entrance into Crosby Heights/Owen Park a bit tougher to transform into any kind of a pedestrian friendly area.  That was going to be difficult anyway because of the other social services along Archer.

I agree.
It doesn't really make those few blocks on Archer any worse than they already are.
I'm just happy nobody took that talk radio jerk's advice to put it at Roosevelt School/Owen Park -- TSAS is moving there for the fall.
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« Reply #146 on: June 15, 2016, 12:39:06 pm »

You all missed this part of the article in the World:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/tulsa-county-commission-votes-to-buy-downtown-site-for-new/article_dbd8d5e3-768a-588f-9419-068fe7c4afca.html

It's all a parking lot so they don't have to do remidiation on the land.

The better question is how on earth is this dirty lot needing millions in remediation worth five million dollars?


I'm not part of the transaction but others I have been pretty much work like this:

If I decide to move my business, it's my cost.

or

If you want me to move my business, it's your cost and so is the place I'll be moving it to.
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« Reply #147 on: June 15, 2016, 12:42:57 pm »

Having been to the old juvenile facility, I can attest that it was grossly inadequate. Social services and juvenile together had may 150 parking places. BUT - the new facility looks to have in excess of 500 parking spaces. If you can get by with 150 with some headache, it seems reasonable to question if 500 is overkill.
My take is that's a 'will it fit rendering' not a design and yes early studies for this site included multipurpose parking but that was in another configuration that would have worked well and included a pedestrian bridge over the tracks.

The facility will likely require significant parking in multiple locations so that the staff and Judicial parking is secured.
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RecycleMichael
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« Reply #148 on: June 15, 2016, 01:31:13 pm »

My father was a Tulsa Police officer for 20 year most of which were in the juvenile department. He committed his career to helping straighten out kids.

A well-designed and run Juvenile Justice Facility can change so many lives for the better.

Good for Tulsa County and kudos to Karen Keith.
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« Reply #149 on: August 06, 2017, 02:30:57 pm »

They just tore down all of the old warehouses on this site.  It looks really bare now, hopefully that means construction is starting soon?  Not a huge fan of this project but the renderings look decent.  Selser Schaefer is the architect and they do good work.
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