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Author Topic: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justice center  (Read 21458 times)
AquaMan
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« Reply #45 on: June 02, 2011, 07:52:22 am »

I intend to hit the river as soon as they put some water in it. Southwest Power is hogging it all.

Social services like the JV center are not at all objectionable. These are the same kids that live in the neighborhoods around Tulsa and go to school with our kids. The JV system attempts to give them a break, try to let them work off their sentences, expunge their records, monitor their behavior and provide access to counseling. The housing part is pretty temporary and serves to give them separation from the environments that put them there. It seems to work pretty well.

I wouldn't hesitate to support a facility in a defunct public school. Franklin grade school was put to use as a "street school" and hasn't really caused any problems serving a similar population. I am quite surprised that no one from TPS has tried to market the surplus schools in this way.
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Conan71
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« Reply #46 on: June 02, 2011, 08:02:40 am »

I intend to hit the river as soon as they put some water in it. Southwest Power is hogging it all.

Social services like the JV center are not at all objectionable. These are the same kids that live in the neighborhoods around Tulsa and go to school with our kids. The JV system attempts to give them a break, try to let them work off their sentences, expunge their records, monitor their behavior and provide access to counseling. The housing part is pretty temporary and serves to give them separation from the environments that put them there. It seems to work pretty well.

I wouldn't hesitate to support a facility in a defunct public school. Franklin grade school was put to use as a "street school" and hasn't really caused any problems serving a similar population. I am quite surprised that no one from TPS has tried to market the surplus schools in this way.

Technically, they aren't surplus yet.  School lets out today for the summer.

One issue seems to be the existing Juvenile facilities are dated, and then what do you do about the NIMBY's near Wilson, Barnard or one of the other schools?  Lots of deferred maintenance on many of the TPS buildings to be reckoned with. 

I think once this is said and done, if the Storey site is chosen, people can look at it and say it was a good redevelopment project.
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AquaMan
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« Reply #47 on: June 02, 2011, 09:00:18 am »

They've known for quite awhile they would be closing. TPS should have been marketing them for at least a few weeks. Institutionally that amounts to a few seconds, I know.

Wilson and several of the other schools are in great shape. Some of them have had major upgrades to systems. Wilson had an expansion in the last few years. As far as NIMBY's go, well, as noted before they will always be around and always intransigent. Truth is knowledge. Once neighborhood leaders are introduced to the current JV, which is more cramped than it is outdated, they can see it poses no threat whatsoever and in fact will probably replace the commerce that will disappear because of the school closings.

Given the choice of a neighborhood school closing and remaining empty for an extended period of time, (an obvious sign of a dying neighborhood and an attractive nuisance to boot which lowers property values) vs an active, well maintained legal institution that would spur economic activity, most will choose the latter.

Its all in the presentation, doncha' know. Wink Anyway, the ship has plotted its course.

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rdj
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« Reply #48 on: June 02, 2011, 09:31:21 am »

Vision 2025, I went back and read your post and thought on it as I was mowing the yard last night.

To say that this center will provide economic boost to the area in a way similar to OTC is comical.  I can't imagine a restaurateur coming to me asking me to invest in his project and his business plan states his primary customer will be the visitors to the juvy hall.  I would laugh him out of my office.  This is the argument a mayor in Podunk, Oklahoma tells the towns folk when they are worried about a private prison taking over Farmer Brown's pastures.  Is the "economic development" and "job creation" the Tulsa Metro Chamber is dreaming up with their Tulsa's Future II program?

As I've said, we need to look at property and try and find the highest & best use for the existing buildings and/or land.  I've driven this area and did again this morning, the building in question is nothing special.  Personally, I could see the Dick Slankard building developed into great commercial space.  I still contend over time (I'm talking on a 10-20 year time horizon) this could be used for much more than a juvenile center.

Maybe, it will be developed into offices for attorneys and counselors specializing in juvenile services...
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Vision 2025
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« Reply #49 on: June 02, 2011, 09:38:25 am »

Aquaman, (actually I like Steveoni or the “Great Steveoni” better) I can tell you that from significant experience with TPS I don’t believe there is any facility in the inventory of closing schools or anywhere else for that matter that is of the appropriate construction and condition to be of any more use than a site that would have to be cleared to the ground in order to be or any use (and I'm an adaptive reuse fan) for the proposed facility but if you happen to know of any with the proper zoning please identify them and I'll personally take a look.

Oh and it's not SWPA that's hording water, Keystone has been below the power pool level all spring so no power releases and there have been only limited cooling water (PSO) and navigation releases.  That said there should be river flow for awhile now that the Turns are here and the CORPS makes releases to force nesting onto the higher  bars, so go have some fun!
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 09:52:47 am by Vision 2025 » Logged

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rdj
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« Reply #50 on: June 02, 2011, 09:42:29 am »

They've known for quite awhile they would be closing. TPS should have been marketing them for at least a few weeks. Institutionally that amounts to a few seconds, I know.

From what I know I wouldn't say that TPS is marketing them, however, there are definitely interested properties in some of the schools you mentioned.  I wouldn't  be surprised if one day we find that the selection process wasn't shaded by the "marketability" of the site.  Personally, I don't have a problem that (assuming the property goes to a good use and sold at market value), but I know others might.
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Conan71
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« Reply #51 on: June 02, 2011, 09:45:11 am »

Aquaman, (actually I like Steveoni or the “Great Steveoni” better) I can tell you that from significant experience with TPS I don’t believe there is any facility in the inventory of closing schools or anywhere else for that matter that is of the appropriate construction and condition to be of any more use than a site that would have to be cleared to the ground in order to be or any use (and I'm an adaptive reuse fan) for the proposed facility but if you happen to know of any with the proper zoning please identify them and I'll personally take a look.

From experience with TPS I can't think of a facility in the TPS inventory of closing schools or anywhere else that is of the appropriate construction and condition to be of any more use than a site that would have to be cleared to the ground to be of any use (and I'm a big adaptive re-use fan) as useful for the proposed facility but if you happen to know of any with the proper zoning room for expansion and a bunch of parking and please identify them and I'll personally take a look.



Kirby, your reverb is on.
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Vision 2025
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« Reply #52 on: June 02, 2011, 09:48:57 am »

RDJ no data to support it and I'm not touting economic development as justification because those folks were already eating somewhere and to me economic development is new dollars coming to town but I think the potential added base to the Brady is valid developed from my personal observations and anticipation as a downtown office dweller. When City Hall moved the lunch lines at the Main Street eats' reduced and those in the BD increased...
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 09:53:31 am by Vision 2025 » Logged

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dbacks fan
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« Reply #53 on: June 02, 2011, 09:50:55 am »

 I still contend over time (I'm talking on a 10-20 year time horizon) this could be used for much more than a juvenile center.

And 30 years ago it was the impound lot for Al Storey. I still say people want to try and undo 30+ years of neglect, to which I applaud but it's not going to happen overnight.

I go to events in downtown Phoenix frequently and the Maricopa County Jail, is no more than four to five blocks from Chase Field, US Airways Arena, Alice Coopers Town, The Hard Rock, Comerica Theater, and a lot of other places and it doesn't bother me in the least that I'm that close to the jail. An interview with  a gypsy cab driver said it the best about being around the jail waiting for fares, "Nobody coming out of the building has anything they can rob me with, and all they want, is to get home."
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 09:54:29 am by dbacks fan » Logged
Vision 2025
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« Reply #54 on: June 02, 2011, 09:51:36 am »

Kirby, your reverb is on.
now that was strange... after my typo I hauled it out to word and back in you see the results LOL
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AquaMan
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« Reply #55 on: June 02, 2011, 10:59:48 am »

Aquaman, (actually I like Steveoni or the “Great Steveoni” better) I can tell you that from significant experience with TPS I don’t believe there is any facility in the inventory of closing schools or anywhere else for that matter that is of the appropriate construction and condition to be of any more use than a site that would have to be cleared to the ground in order to be or any use (and I'm an adaptive reuse fan) for the proposed facility but if you happen to know of any with the proper zoning please identify them and I'll personally take a look.

Oh and it's not SWPA that's hording water, Keystone has been below the power pool level all spring so no power releases and there have been only limited cooling water (PSO) and navigation releases.  That said there should be river flow for awhile now that the Turns are here and the CORPS makes releases to force nesting onto the higher  bars, so go have some fun!


Then, the (Great)Steveoni' it is. Roll Eyes.

I value your experience but I'm curious as to your conclusion. Some of these schools seem to be good candidates for adaptive re-use. Here's what I remember about the Juvy-

Parking Lot- most middle schools have parking areas

Intake Area- analagous to the lobby and administrative offices of Wilson middle school with some updated security

Lobby and consultation area- this was where the miscreants conferred with their counsel and waited for their court appearance. Could be an auditorium or lunch room of a middle school.

Court Rooms- easily could be converted class rooms.

Administrative Out take- The juveniles are counseled as to their obligations, referred to other organizations and generally documented. Pay fines or make arrangements. Middle school library or other rooms could suffice.

Quarters- I didn't visit these personally but the description was similar to a light security dormitory. Lots of rooms at a middle school and a gymnasium with shower facilities.

So, it seems to me that a typical middle school in good repair, like Wilson, would offer not only more space but two gymnasiums, a cafeteria, better access to area businesses, several acres of land and a nearby University. All at a lesser cost. Zoning would be more of a process than the current site selected as it always is in Tulsa but not insurmountable when the neighborhood is shown the alternatives.

Tern soup for dinner!

ps.- When I attended Wilson, it was a 7th, 8th, 9th school. It easily accommodated about 300 of us. It since has been expanded. It may still be using radiators and window a/c but if they could retrofit Central High downtown for heating/air I'm sure Wilson could be as well. This facility may be the most marketable they have considering its location near TU downtown and midtown.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 11:46:54 am by AquaMan » Logged

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rdj
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« Reply #56 on: June 02, 2011, 12:53:14 pm »

This reminds of a conversation I had with a city planner concerning a proposal to build a low income senior housing center on TDA owned lots at Main & Latimer. 

I fully appreciate the idea of TDA selling off land (which are they largest land owner in Tulsa or is just my imagination) and new construction north of downtown.  However, a low income senior housing center?  Why wouldn't we build something there that will fit with the existing apartment buildings that have become home to a growing group of young downtown loving hipsters and OSU students?  Aren't they what the Chamber & TYPROS tells us we are supposed to be attracting?  The answer?  Well, this is better than crack houses and vacant land.  Well sure it is better, but what does adding more low income housing to the area begat?  More low income housing and the lack of economic vitality that goes with them!

Have we become so enticed by the idea of reuse and infill that we are willing to accept anyone and anything that is willing to build on a piece of property?  I'm not a native Tulsan.  Part of the reason I chose to move here was because I sensed a desire to have a higher standard when it came to arts, architecture, public spaces, etc.  I guess that standard dissipated with the oil barons and I sensed the last breaths when I settled here nearly ten years ago.
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Conan71
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« Reply #57 on: June 02, 2011, 01:09:46 pm »

This reminds of a conversation I had with a city planner concerning a proposal to build a low income senior housing center on TDA owned lots at Main & Latimer. 

I fully appreciate the idea of TDA selling off land (which are they largest land owner in Tulsa or is just my imagination) and new construction north of downtown.  However, a low income senior housing center?  Why wouldn't we build something there that will fit with the existing apartment buildings that have become home to a growing group of young downtown loving hipsters and OSU students?  Aren't they what the Chamber & TYPROS tells us we are supposed to be attracting?  The answer?  Well, this is better than crack houses and vacant land.  Well sure it is better, but what does adding more low income housing to the area begat?  More low income housing and the lack of economic vitality that goes with them!

Have we become so enticed by the idea of reuse and infill that we are willing to accept anyone and anything that is willing to build on a piece of property?  I'm not a native Tulsan.  Part of the reason I chose to move here was because I sensed a desire to have a higher standard when it came to arts, architecture, public spaces, etc.  I guess that standard dissipated with the oil barons and I sensed the last breaths when I settled here nearly ten years ago.

There is a certain mind-set which has been discussed on here that lower income housing should be dispersed throughout a city to discourage large-scale ghettos.  I suspect there are severe restrictions on who can live or stay with a resident in a low income senior housing complex which would pretty much rule out gang-bangers hanging out in the parking lot at 2am.

Aside from that, college students aren't really much more affluent than seniors on a fixed income, so it's really not that incongruous.  A senior housing complex would at least be a quiet neighbor Wink

How do we decide where we should house the low income, mentally deficient, former criminals, homeless, etc. without pissing someone off?  It's not possible.  The downside to dispersing low income housing throughout a community can be seen if you drive by 61st between Riverside & Peoria or out east in the 21st & Garnett to 31st & Mingo area.  25 years ago, those were somewhat attractive and desirable areas to live.  However, if you contain all the low income housing to one geographic area you are met with: "that's not fair and that's discriminatory".  Aaarrgh!

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« Reply #58 on: June 02, 2011, 01:11:42 pm »

  I suspect there are severe restrictions on who can live or stay with a resident in a low income senior housing complex


I'd take that bet.
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« Reply #59 on: June 02, 2011, 01:22:40 pm »

There is a certain mind-set which has been discussed on here that lower income housing should be dispersed throughout a city to discourage large-scale ghettos.  I suspect there are severe restrictions on who can live or stay with a resident in a low income senior housing complex which would pretty much rule out gang-bangers hanging out in the parking lot at 2am.

Aside from that, college students aren't really much more affluent than seniors on a fixed income, so it's really not that incongruous.  A senior housing complex would at least be a quiet neighbor Wink

How do we decide where we should house the low income, mentally deficient, former criminals, homeless, etc. without pissing someone off?  It's not possible.  The downside to dispersing low income housing throughout a community can be seen if you drive by 61st between Riverside & Peoria or out east in the 21st & Garnett to 31st & Mingo area.  25 years ago, those were somewhat attractive and desirable areas to live.  However, if you contain all the low income housing to one geographic area you are met with: "that's not fair and that's discriminatory".  Aaarrgh!

There is no perfect solution.  Congregate all the "undesirable" areas and you get a full-blown ghetto.  Disperse them and you get mini-ghettos spread throughout the city.  One can argue Tulsa already has both of these scenarios with large sections of the city, from many people's perspective, off limits due to these factors.  Tulsa isn't alone and it's something many cities have to deal with.  How you deal with it is our current struggle.  In 20 years it will shift to entirely new areas...
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