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Author Topic: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justice center  (Read 21587 times)
AquaMan
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« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2011, 01:42:08 pm »

Impossible to argue these points. Sharp wasn't serious about Brady? Williams center compared to a Juvy center? No concerns with putting minors in close proximity to hardened criminals because its convenient? Bad planning is okay because it is just a continuation of previous oversight? Just hold your breath, shut your eyes and the uproar will settle and we'll all wonder what the furor was about?

Honestly.

No way around this. Its continuation of poor planning. Do like other cities, or even an infill developer...sometimes its just a better idea to scrape the land and do it right. Lots of public schools being vacated for lack of demand and poor planning and we're going to spend tax dollars to de-gentrify downtown? Hmmm....
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Conan71
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« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2011, 02:03:55 pm »

Impossible to argue these points. Sharp wasn't serious about Brady? Williams center compared to a Juvy center? No concerns with putting minors in close proximity to hardened criminals because its convenient? Bad planning is okay because it is just a continuation of previous oversight? Just hold your breath, shut your eyes and the uproar will settle and we'll all wonder what the furor was about?

Honestly.

No way around this. Its continuation of poor planning. Do like other cities, or even an infill developer...sometimes its just a better idea to scrape the land and do it right. Lots of public schools being vacated for lack of demand and poor planning and we're going to spend tax dollars to de-gentrify downtown? Hmmm....

I don't know where you harvested that Sharp wasn't serious about the Brady from my comments.  Sharp was a land owner in the Brady shepherding a bunch of vacant and low rent buildings he hoped would morph into a great entertainment and retail district at some point, there was no critical mass of commerce in the mid to late 1990's.  There was Spaghetti Warehouse, Caz's, and some other transient galleries and clubs which would come and go. IN SPITE of a jail and homeless shelters being constructed a few blocks to the west, it obviously has not stifled development one iota in the Brady District.  Rather, it's accelerated in recent years.  The jail and shelters certainly hasn't kept you from visiting the district either, why should it keep others from visiting?

Putting minors in proximity to hardened criminals?  Are you are aware there's an adult detention facility practically next door to the current facility and has been for years?  It's hyperbole and fear-mongering like this which feeds the ignorance of those who think of downtown as some sort of scary place to avoid.

What sort of business do you suppose would go well directly south of the current jail?  How about a transient park so transients can congregate there and further the image you seem to think predominates downtown?

Honestly.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 02:05:27 pm by Conan71 » Logged

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rdj
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« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2011, 02:12:43 pm »

The bottom line for me is, there are 570 sq miles or 364,000 acres within Tulsa County and they chose those 7.5 acres to put this center?  C'mon, there has to be a better place.  

I want these kids to have every opportunity to be successful.  Their success, or lack thereof, has a great impact on the crime and health of our community.  On the other hand, I just don't think this location is what is best for our community as a whole.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 02:14:41 pm by rdj » Logged

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Conan71
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« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2011, 02:26:58 pm »

The bottom line for me is, there are 570 sq miles or 364,000 acres within Tulsa County and they chose those 7.5 acres to put this center?  C'mon, there has to be a better place.  

I want these kids to have every opportunity to be successful.  Their success, or lack thereof, has a great impact on the crime and health of our community.  On the other hand, I just don't think this location is what is best for our community as a whole.

Considering the primary purpose of the center is not simply a detention center but also Juvie and family courts, as well as counseling services, it necessarily needs to be somewhat convenient to families, judges, attorneys, and visitors.

Anyone know what the current redevelopment status is of Rader or Hissom?  A bucolic setting out in the Osage Hills...oops, that's Osage County.  I can picture several spots to the NW of Tulsa which might be ideal, but again, I'm pretty sure wrong county.
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Vision 2025
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« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2011, 02:31:42 pm »

Well, it looks like there is a need for some more information so here goes:

The proposal for that site has been reviewed and endorsed by many involved in the redevelopment area and a justice complex at that location was part of the downtown redevelopment plan prepared for the City by Jack Crowley, PHD, Faicp\Fasla.  

At this point the location is not 100% set, but I would say that is the primary site is as shown in the article however there are issues with it that I will not go into while negoiations are underway…

When you understand that a Juvenile justice center is so much more than detention (which is the smallest part of such a facility by the way) you will see that first and foremost it is a Court House (where all things Juvenile are handled like adoptions, abuse and neglect cases in addition to offenders which is the perception) and offices where a direct benefit to the location will be hundreds of employees and visitors to the facility the vast majority of which are there on daily business that should provide a boost in the base to the Brady, just as the City Hall relocation did to the Blue Dome eateries.

The location relationship with DLM is a distinct advantage and may allow for shared (hidden) institutional resources which are expected to save on both direct construction and long term operational costs.  Understand there will be no-cross connection of Juvenile Detainees (who are in the facility on a limited temporary basis while awaiting adjudication and the Jail population and any state Juvenile inmates that might be housed there (new stature).  

Plus the new facility will provide a (now) needed architectural transition between the institutional style of DLM and the BOK and Brady District.  No the County won’t do a monument, that’s not their style, but I fully expect a quality design of economic value that is respectful of the mission, location and neighbors to be developed by Selser Schaefer (who is responsible for much of the work in the Brady) and their specialty consultants who were selected for the design work and participated in and endorsed the primary site evaluation.   There were renderings developed and released previously however they are out-of-date with the current direction and should not be considered as currently accurate.  

As for being across the street from the BOK Center; Parking for the proposed facility will be across the street, then across the tracks from the loading dock at the BOK Center but ultimately, and with creativity, this new parking facility will be able to contribute to event parking (initially planned as surface parking that can be convertible to structured parking if and when the demand develops) as other more prime parking locations redevelop.

For the question about the existing site; Expansion has been studied as has the potential for saving what is serviceable and replacing what is bad on adjacent lands since tearing down and rebuilding on the same site is logistically impossible.  The real issue is that the existing site and everything within reason around it is located within the 100 year flood regulatory flood plain which is curable however protection from the 500 year flood (a River risk) is not as that overtops the levee (which is facing issues related to the upcoming re-certification) and that locating "critical facilities" within that level of flood hazard violates both the City's and the County's FEMA approved "All Hazard Mitigation Plans" which is required for those entities to receive disaster relief assistance.

And to future comments that the County should take over the Rader Center, we actually looked at it, (likely could have had it for a song of our choosing) but the facility is of a totally inappropriate (unsafe) design for the use which is what has driven the State to close it.  Oh and it too resides within the 500 year flood elevation for the River so expansion/new construction would face the same constraits.

If you wonder why the County needs a new facility go visit what it there...  The existing facility is 55 beds the new facility is proposed at a minimum of 60 with room for significant growth, the actual count for the new facility still being evaluated and I expect that it will grow.  

The funds approved for acquiring a new site were originally approved for expansion of the existing facility which was proven unfeasible and has been proofed by many sources including a special task/request of the Vision 2025 Sales Tax Overview Committee.    

Hope that helps, I’ll check back for more questions.

« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 04:42:56 pm by Vision 2025 » Logged

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dbacks fan
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« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2011, 02:37:08 pm »

Considering the primary purpose of the center is not simply a detention center but also Juvie and family courts, as well as counseling services, it necessarily needs to be somewhat convenient to families, judges, attorneys, and visitors.

Anyone know what the current redevelopment status is of Rader or Hissom?  A bucolic setting out in the Osage Hills...oops, that's Osage County.  I can picture several spots to the NW of Tulsa which might be ideal, but again, I'm pretty sure wrong county.

There's a nice empty spot at 201st and Memorial on the south east corner, very few houses around, no major business.
Then just listen to all the people complain about having to drive out there.

(sarcasm)
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 02:38:41 pm by dbacks fan » Logged
SXSW
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« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2011, 02:52:41 pm »

The rendering looks decent, certainly better than rusting warehouses:



Denver has all of its judicial/social services downtown, including a new multi-million dollar Justice Center aka County Jail.  It hasn't affected development there.  
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erfalf
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« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2011, 03:09:36 pm »

Fort Worth as well. Does not seem to matter one iota.
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rdj
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« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2011, 03:31:59 pm »

Vision 2025:  Thank you for the information.  You make a lot of good points and if executed perfectly then it appears to not be a scourge on downtown.  I'm not in the make downtown like Disneyland where everything is perfectly laid out camp, but I do want to be very thoughtful about what we do and where put things.

Tulsa has a lot of hodge-podge and we are paying for those development sins.

As easy as it is to say, "let those southie's stay out of downtown" it isn't that easy.  Downtown is like any destination, if you keep putting the same type of things the same type of people will come.  Tulsa has a finite number of "those kind of people" and we need to understand that a thriving downtown has attractions to bring all people from the surrounding region.  Continuing to add social services to downtown does not help in attracting new visitors.

To use the overused, but convenient, example of downtown OKC.  Bricktown is not for everyone, in fact, I don't enjoy Bricktown, too contrived for me.  I prefer the area around Automobile Alley & the Film Exchange.  But, I realize that Bricktown brings in a lot of suburban visitors because it has developed a reputation as accessible, lit and secure.
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AquaMan
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« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2011, 04:17:52 pm »

Any contention that DLM, Salvation Army, Daycenter have not affected downtown development or growth in surrounding neighborhoods is indefensible unless you know how those areas would have grown without their presence. You just don't know, but suppositions can be made. Brady floundered till the last decade even with Sharp's investment. In fact all of downtown floundered coincidental with the repurposing of that area. I remember a much more interesting little area where DLM is now that had gas stations, restaurants, a grocery store etc. Services for the surrounding hoods. Replaced by Bail Bondsmen, loan sharks and little else.

I don't think there will be more assaults, panhandling or other undesirable behavior. Never did. I just think the land could have and still can be put to better use. We'll never know because we don't look at all the possible outcomes. Just the ones the city, the county and their planning buddies find convenient and cheap. That's our model. What did V call the DLM style, "intuitive"?! Right. I could have designed those tilt up slabs and called it Stevoni. Wink

Anyway, at least I now know why they can't expand in the current location. Now, if someone could explain how using some of the shuttered, recently improved schools, sitting in proximity to midtown/downtown that were designed for juveniles and office workers is NOT a good idea I'll consider it a productive day. Those buildings, like Wilson Jr. High or Cleveland could be picked up cheap and require little redesign. Franklin was changed successfully. The homeless shelter I saw in Norman was a former grade school seamlessly changed.

Did Crowley and the county consider that option?
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Vision 2025
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« Reply #40 on: June 01, 2011, 04:53:12 pm »

Sorry "Steveoni", intuitive was a typeo thanks for pointing it out, now corrected...
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AquaMan
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« Reply #41 on: June 01, 2011, 06:17:52 pm »

Sorry "Steveoni", intuitive was a typeo thanks for pointing it out, now corrected...
[/quote


Sort of has a ring to it doesn't it? Stevoni! Stevone' for the more sophisticated feel.
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carltonplace
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« Reply #42 on: June 02, 2011, 06:44:50 am »

I just think the land could have and still can be put to better use.

This really is the crux of the argument. But as Conan points out the DLM clink is already built and it's not going anywhere. Other types of development are unlikely at this point other than additional social services or the businesses that thrive on the jail (bail bondsmen, auto impounds). To me the juvy is actually a step up as long as it is an attractive building with some green space.

There is momentum now in Owen Park, Brady Heights and Brady District; this proposal will not dampen that. In fact it might actually bring in some of those downtown haters when their delinquents get in trouble and then they can have lunch in the Brady and see that DT is not scary.  Wink
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AquaMan
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« Reply #43 on: June 02, 2011, 07:24:26 am »

Your remarks are always thoughtful and well spoken Carlton. Perhaps because we spent some time talking at the Greek fest one time I can put your patient reasoning and pragmatism to a face.

Sometimes I think we're just lazy in Tulsa.

We want walkable neighborhoods, forms based zoning, mass transit and escape from GOB insider development. Then we just keep making the same mistakes because doing such things is really hard and requires expending political capital as well as taxpayer money. So, we let 13 buildings designed to do what the Juvy center needs (I know because one of my young boys went through that system successfully) go up for sale in a slow market while we endeavor to buy undesirable property from a long time associate, construct a new building using long time associates, in an area that should be slowly dismantled and repurposed. I'm sure Avalon admires our loyalty to their profit making purpose. It will indeed be a dreary compound in that area that our children will shake their heads in dismay as they reach middle age. Why did they put a cactus plant in the middle of a vegetable garden?!

Some of you travel a lot to OKC. Surely you've noticed the constant re-designing of that city. Its highways, its slums, its downtown and its entertainment venues. Our taxes pay for that. Yes, they have the seat of government, yes they have Tinker etc. etc. But so does St. Paul, yet Minneapolis is the strong sister. Why? Because cities like OKC and Minnie are more like a business that keeps tuning its product, investing in different futures and responding to needs. They don't seem to let their right wing or left wing politics get in the way of doing business. Business is amoral. If we want government run like business we need to understand that. Minnie totally redesigned their waterfront area even though it was not broken, but could be better. OKC does the same thing.  They have a culture of giant hypocrisy that allows them to rail at federal spending and activist government all the while making the most of each.

We are their moral cousin who actually believes the stuff we learned in church and school without question and attempt to live a life of smug, self righteous, condescension. Above all else, successful business is about planning, revising those plans and sometimes completely junking them, cutting your losses and moving on.

Don't worry. My vacation is almost over and I'll no longer have time for these rants. Wink
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Conan71
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« Reply #44 on: June 02, 2011, 07:38:41 am »

Quote
We want walkable neighborhoods, forms based zoning, mass transit and escape from GOB insider development.

And we always want social services in someone else's neighborhood.

Good Lord AquaMan, don't waste your vacation here, go enjoy the river  Wink
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