Your Federal Government Shutdown Thread

[we vs us]

The debt ceiling discussion is going to be entirely different from the one we just had, IMO.  The t-bill is one of the most crucial investment instruments in the world, and global markets won't take that kind of threatened instability lightly.  If we get closer to maxing out the ceiling and the Tea Party starts flexing its muscle again -- and seriously starts to threaten our ability to repay our debts --  I think Wall Street is going to come down with both feet and force a settlement.  I also think there's a chance that this will spark the first recognizable global flight from Treasuries in the modern era. All that rigamarole that Boehner and Co. were spouting last year about making a stable environment for business is horse pucky when you look at what's really being threatened here, and the extent of the damage to the world economy it could cause.

[guido911]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gXGRCI4tBY[/youtube]

[nathanm]

[..cut flippant youtube video..]

You really don't get it do you? The stability of Treasuries is what keeps our borrowing costs low. It's what makes all the models investors use to value other things go. Screwing with that is inviting disaster. Even threatening to screw with it is inviting disaster.

Do you really want to see interest rates on our debt jump from almost zero to even 5%? Do you really think it's a wise idea to end the massive subsidies we get from the rest of the world through their demand for dollars in the form of Treasuries? As it stands, we get what is effectively free smile from the rest of the world precisely because nearly every serious investor in the world thinks that Treasuries are as good as gold, as far as getting their money back.

You and I pay for stuff, but we don't actually give anything up as a country to get stuff from China, Japan, Korea, Germany, and elsewhere. We send them IOUs instead of real value. IOUs that will likely never actually be paid back.

Worst of all, we are so frakking close to seeing the Euro in the toilet, thus removing the dollar's only serious competitor, that we would have to be monumentally stupid to love that up now.

[Hoss]

You really don't get it do you? The stability of Treasuries is what keeps our borrowing costs low. It's what makes all the models investors use to value other things go. Screwing with that is inviting disaster. Even threatening to screw with it is inviting disaster.

Do you really want to see interest rates on our debt jump from almost zero to even 5%? Do you really think it's a wise idea to end the massive subsidies we get from the rest of the world through their demand for dollars in the form of Treasuries? As it stands, we get what is effectively free smile from the rest of the world precisely because nearly every serious investor in the world thinks that Treasuries are as good as gold, as far as getting their money back.

You and I pay for stuff, but we don't actually give anything up as a country to get stuff from China, Japan, Korea, Germany, and elsewhere. We send them IOUs instead of real value. IOUs that will likely never actually be paid back.

Worst of all, we are so frakking close to seeing the Euro in the toilet, thus removing the dollar's only serious competitor, that we would have to be monumentally stupid to love that up now.

Don't worry Nate, I'm guessing he minored in AWing while in school.  Funny, it really should have been his major.

[guido911]

You really don't get it do you? The stability of Treasuries is what keeps our borrowing costs low. It's what makes all the models investors use to value other things go. Screwing with that is inviting disaster. Even threatening to screw with it is inviting disaster.

Do you really want to see interest rates on our debt jump from almost zero to even 5%? Do you really think it's a wise idea to end the massive subsidies we get from the rest of the world through their demand for dollars in the form of Treasuries? As it stands, we get what is effectively free smile from the rest of the world precisely because nearly every serious investor in the world thinks that Treasuries are as good as gold, as far as getting their money back.

You and I pay for stuff, but we don't actually give anything up as a country to get stuff from China, Japan, Korea, Germany, and elsewhere. We send them IOUs instead of real value. IOUs that will likely never actually be paid back.

Worst of all, we are so frakking close to seeing the Euro in the toilet, thus removing the dollar's only serious competitor, that we would have to be monumentally stupid to love that up now.

Oh I get it. I am just not into the apocalyptic hyberbole. Here's a thought, why not just spend within our means? 

[nathanm]

Oh I get it. I am just not into the apocalyptic hyberbole. Here's a thought, why not just spend within our means? 

It isn't hyperbole. If we fail to raise the debt ceiling and end up defaulting on treasuries, there will be chaos that makes Lehman look like a spring day. Even without that risk, it's still stupid to give up the flow of free stuff from China and elsewhere.

As far as not spending within our means, ask Paul Ryan. Or the American Enterprise Institute. Even that bastion of right-wing economics believes in countercyclical deficit spending. If your "team" hadn't decided to cut taxes in a boom, thus leaving us with a boom-time deficit, we wouldn't be in the financial situation we're in now. Of course, some people just don't get that you raise taxes into growth to head off inflation.

[guido911]

It isn't hyperbole. If we fail to raise the debt ceiling and end up defaulting on treasuries, there will be chaos that makes Lehman look like a spring day. Even without that risk, it's still stupid to give up the flow of free stuff from China and elsewhere.

As far as not spending within our means, ask Paul Ryan. Or the American Enterprise Institute. Even that bastion of right-wing economics believes in countercyclical deficit spending. If your "team" hadn't decided to cut taxes in a boom, thus leaving us with a boom-time deficit, we wouldn't be in the financial situation we're in now. Of course, some people just don't get that you raise taxes into growth to head off inflation.

I ran across this quote from four years ago during that debate of raising the debt ceiling, which is eerily similar to my position:

“The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign
that the U.S. Government can't pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial  assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government's reckless fiscal policies. … Increasing America's debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that ‘the buck stops here. Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.”

http://rpc.senate.gov/public/_files/alternativestothedebtlimitincreasev20.pdf

Go ahead and fear-monger to OBAMA who made those statements while in the Senate.

And to your quote which started this, perhaps it can be modified to read, "Wow..just..wow. It's as if the Republicans OBAMA really [did] want to destroy the world's economy..."

[nathanm]

I ran across this quote from four years ago during that debate of raising the debt ceiling, which is eerily similar to my position:
http://rpc.senate.gov/public/_files/alternativestothedebtlimitincreasev20.pdf

Go ahead and fear-monger to OBAMA who made those statements while in the Senate.

And to your quote which started this, perhaps it can be modified to read, "Wow..just..wow. It's as if the Republicans OBAMA really [did] want to destroy the world's economy..."

Obama ain't the idiot threatening to not raise the debt ceiling today. Boehner is.

It's funny how you're utterly dismissive of the past when it suits you, but if it doesn't, you ignore the present and focus on things that happened years ago. Either it matters or it doesn't.

[guido911]

Obama ain't the idiot threatening to not raise the debt ceiling today. Boehner is.

Translation: I am embarrassed because my double standard has been exposed.

[Gaspar]

He is all their's now. 

[nathanm]

Translation: I am embarrassed because my double standard has been exposed.

That would be a translation fail. I meant what I wrote, not what you wish I meant.

Do you have some evidence that Obama thinks that the debt ceiling should not be raised at this time?

[guido911]

That would be a translation fail. I meant what I wrote, not what you wish I meant.

Do you have some evidence that Obama thinks that the debt ceiling should not be raised at this time?

Nope, other than his history of having no problem of voting against it in the past. Thinking the other way would be sorta hypocritical, right? Oh wait...

[Cats Cats Cats]

So, no increase in debt ceiling leads to default on our loans?  I guess unless we stopped spending and put all our money in servicing our debt we might manage a little bit.  Obama obviously played politics in the past with the debt ceiling.  I hold him to what he said.  Obviously the correct decision with facing defaulting on the US Debt is to extend the debt ceiling.  Anything else would be tragic for the U.S.  It appears to be another case of the Senate knowing they needed to do it.  They knew they had the votes to do it.  So they drew straws to let the ones running for office point to the fact they didn't raise the debt ceiling.  Which as we have now pointed out.  Complete BS.

Gaspar and Guido, I am sure you hope that the debt ceiling doesn't need raised.  Being that Obama has flip flopped on the issue.  Do you think the deb ceiling should have been raised this time?  Or the last time it was when the republicans did it?

[Gaspar]

Yes, it needs to stop.  Needed to stop the last time, and the time before that.

We keep charging up our credit cards, then asking for more credit, then asking our parents and neighbors for money, finally just stealing it from our kids.  We need a Dave Ramsey intervention.  We've been owned!


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYKAbRK_wKA[/youtube]

The Romans were warned about this centuries before their collapse.  Apathy and fiscal irresponsibility consumed them.  We are on the fast track.  We cannot stop it, but we can slow the process.

The national budget must be balanced. The public debt must be reduced; the arrogance of the authorities must be moderated and controlled. Payments to foreign governments must be reduced. If the nation doesn't want to go bankrupt, people must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance. – Marcus Tullius Cicero

[Cats Cats Cats]

Yes, it needs to stop.  Needed to stop the last time, and the time before that.

We keep charging up our credit cards, then asking for more credit, then asking our parents and neighbors for money, finally just stealing it from our kids.  We need a Dave Ramsey intervention.  We've been owned!


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYKAbRK_wKA[/youtube]

The Romans were warned about this centuries before their collapse.  Apathy and fiscal irresponsibility consumed them.  We are on the fast track.  We cannot stop it, but we can slow the process.

The national budget must be balanced. The public debt must be reduced; the arrogance of the authorities must be moderated and controlled. Payments to foreign governments must be reduced. If the nation doesn't want to go bankrupt, people must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance. – Marcus Tullius Cicero

So a tax hike and spending cut it is.  Lets get it going.