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November 24, 2017, 11:51:17 pm
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Author Topic: Stop building new prisons in Oklahoma  (Read 23048 times)
Conan71
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« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2010, 11:48:35 am »


Sometimes you guys on the left need a smack upside the head with a 2x4.



Yet another typical crap Republican response  Wink
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RecycleMichael
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« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2010, 11:50:53 am »

Of course it is.  At least you clarified your position.
Sometimes you guys on the left need a smack upside the head with a 2x4.

Don't go there. This isn't about left or right. Try and follow the conversation.
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patric
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« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2010, 11:53:34 am »

So, nearly 28% of the prison population is there for a drug offense, 10% of the population is essentially users.  I'm curious how many on distribution charges were more or less "trumped-up" based on having a large quantity for personal use?

(Tulsa Police Officer Eric) Hill told Department of Justice officials that on more than one occasion he "replaced" narcotics that had either been destroyed or disposed of by a suspect with narcotics that either he or another officer brought to the scene.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=14&articleid=20100910_11_A1_Reside602553

So planting drugs on citizens was (is?) essentially determined by what drugs an officer expects a citizen to be in possession of.    That's how you keep prisons full.
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Townsend
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« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2010, 12:50:15 pm »

You just thought they were women...

FINALLY!!  Someone's reading my blog.
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Red Arrow
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« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2010, 12:51:23 pm »

Don't go there. This isn't about left or right. Try and follow the conversation.

You should pay attention too.  I made an obviously rediculous suggestion to see where Swake stood.  Swake introduced the derogatory remarks about party affiliation, not me.

swake
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       Re: Stop building new prisons in Oklahoma
« Reply #9 on: Today at 10:56:02 am » Quote 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote from: Red Arrow on Today at 10:32:43 am
We could reduce crime by making all the non-violent crimes no longer crimes.

By the way, where do you keep your spare house key?  I'd really hate to have someone break down your door to get in and non-violently steal all your stuff when they could just open the door.

(End of my post, RedArrow. Begin Swakes response.)

That’s a crap response. I’m not advocating anything like releasing all non violent or even all drug offenders. Typical Republican inane sound bite red herring response.
 
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nathanm
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« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2010, 01:11:39 pm »

Conan, I actually largely agree with you on this. I might go a little farther, but on the basics, we've got essentially the same position. People who repeatedly commit crimes that harm others should be put in jail, violent or nonviolent. People who commit most violent crimes should be locked up for a spell the first time around (unless it's something like a stupid bar fight, in which case probation with an alcohol restriction is probably appropriate). People who aren't hurting other people should either have their offense redefined as "not a crime" or given probation.

There is no sense in locking up people whose crime doesn't involve harm to others. It's a waste of money. Most people should be given the chance to reform their behavior before being thrown in prison where they get the full on rape experience and learn how to be an even stupider criminal.

I think a large part of the issue is felony creep, though. So many crimes that used to be misdemeanors have been redefined as felonies as part of our various pushes to be "touch on crime" that it's much harder for the offender to re-integrate into society. It's nearly impossible to get a job as a felon.
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« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2010, 01:23:54 pm »

Conan, I actually largely agree with you on this. I might go a little farther, but on the basics, we've got essentially the same position. People who repeatedly commit crimes that harm others should be put in jail, violent or nonviolent. People who commit most violent crimes should be locked up for a spell the first time around (unless it's something like a stupid bar fight, in which case probation with an alcohol restriction is probably appropriate). People who aren't hurting other people should either have their offense redefined as "not a crime" or given probation.

There is no sense in locking up people whose crime doesn't involve harm to others. It's a waste of money. Most people should be given the chance to reform their behavior before being thrown in prison where they get the full on rape experience and learn how to be an even stupider criminal.

I think a large part of the issue is felony creep, though. So many crimes that used to be misdemeanors have been redefined as felonies as part of our various pushes to be "touch on crime" that it's much harder for the offender to re-integrate into society. It's nearly impossible to get a job as a felon.

I'll have to agree with you on this Nathan.  Hope it doesn't make you change yor mind.
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nathanm
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« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2010, 01:55:22 pm »

I like it when we agree. It gives me hope that maybe I'm not quite as much of a commie as I sometimes seem. Wink
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"Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration" --Abraham Lincoln
Conan71
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« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2010, 02:04:35 pm »

I'm also not much on the concept of "punishment".  Either you warehouse the incorrigible so they can't harm others or find a way to rehab those who simply foobared up and got caught and have them make restitution to those they harmed.  A prison term doesn't do much to help with the restitution part.

The concept of "rehabilitation" is likely best carried out outside prison walls not inside where there's a whole different society and negative influences. I'm not saying people have not been rehabilitated in prison, certainly many have since recidivism rates for Oklahoma are about 23%, that means 77% got the message or simply haven't been caught again.  I'd like to understand the criteria used on DOC pre-sentincing reports judges rely on to make sentencing decisions.
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2010, 11:07:51 pm »

Saw a show the other day (PBS maybe?) about Australia.  Seems like the Aboriginal population is 3% and their prison population is over 40%.  Our black population is about 12-14% of the country and over 40% of the prison population.

And the average drop out rate is about 25 to 3%.

We are doing something wrong.


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Conan71
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« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2010, 09:48:06 am »

Saw a show the other day (PBS maybe?) about Australia.  Seems like the Aboriginal population is 3% and their prison population is over 40%.  Our black population is about 12-14% of the country and over 40% of the prison population.

And the average drop out rate is about 25 to 3%.

We are doing something wrong.




Who is "we"?  You mean the rest of us who keep sentencing black people to prison? 
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2010, 12:52:01 pm »

"We" as in society-as-a-whole in Australia and the United States.  There may be others, but those specifically.

Another comment made was the observation that there were proportionally more Aboriginals in Australia at any given than South Africa had in prison at the height of apartheid.






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“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.

What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say.
Conan71
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« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2010, 03:16:15 pm »

I don't know what to tell you Heir, if a large percent of black people are committing violent crimes, then we are going to incarcerate a large percentage of them.  I have serious doubts in today's civil rights-oriented and PC world that more blacks being incarcerated on a per capita basis is remotely rooted in racism.
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custosnox
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« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2010, 03:59:33 pm »

I don't know what to tell you Heir, if a large percent of black people are committing violent crimes, then we are going to incarcerate a large percentage of them.  I have serious doubts in today's civil rights-oriented and PC world that more blacks being incarcerated on a per capita basis is remotely rooted in racism.
In a round about sort of way it is.  When you start out at the bottom, it is really hard to crawl out.  The majority of those being incarcerated come from this situation.  The blacks were put into this lower class decades ago, due to the racism of the time and for them it was a step up given the situation.  Some make it out, most aren't so lucky.

Now don't get me wrong, this is not an excuse in any way for people to commit crimes, or not take it on themselves to make a better life for themselves legally.  Just saying that the high number of black inmates stems from the high number of blacks in proverty, which stems from blacks as a whole starting in proverty generations ago because of racism. 

Just please tell me that makes more sense then stuff shadows posts
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RecycleMichael
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« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2010, 04:06:52 pm »

Yes custonox. Your posts actually make sense and I usually agree with your logic. Shadows...not so often.
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