State Sen. Rice Proposing High Point Beer & Wine Sales In Grocery Stores

[swake]

I hear this and read this, yet I've seen quite a few (wink) non-happy hours and (wink) non-drink discounts.

Oh, I understand the rule vs the practice. Your price and the quality of your drink has a direct relationship to the quality of your tip to the bartender.

But there's no penny beer night in Oklahoma, no $1 well drinks, and there is in Kansas, I should know, my grades in college would probably have been a lot better if there were no drink specials in Kansas.

[cynical]

I don't disagree with cannon_fodder as a matter of consumer policy and know almost nothing about how liquor prices are regulated in Oklahoma.  The problem is that liquor price fixing under state regulations, if properly designed and implemented, is exempt from the Sherman Act under the "State Action Doctrine."  The State Action Doctrine is one of those unsung aspects of federalism that, in spite of the protestations of the current Republican Party, and over the objections of the historic Republican Party, remain in place.  The federal government does not regulate state governments in the area of competition law. 

However, a Supreme Court case finding a California pricing arrangement to be a violation of the Act is California Liquor Dealers v. MidCal Aluminum, 445 U.S. 97 (1980).  In this case the Court held that a pricing scheme that allows private parties to set prices by agreement did not have sufficient direct state involvement to bring the scheme within the Act, even though it was clear that official state policy supported the arrangement.  The problem was a lack of active state government supervision or approval of the result.

Under this holding, which appears to be good law 30 years later, prices set simply by a meeting between two Oklahoma liquor distributors and not supervised or submitted to the ABC for approval would probably be illegal.  If the ABC has final approval of the prices, it is probably legal.  As I said earlier, I've had no involvement with the ABC or liquor wholesalers, so I can only speculate about the facts.

It is called collusion, and it is illegal.  I belieeve under the sherman act.

Anyway, oklahomas alcohol laws are annoying at best, bad for consumers in reality, and probably bad for business (marshalls brew pub anyone?).  They are cemented in place for existing business interfests and no other reason.  Selling alcohol on Sunday, wine at grocery stores, or a winery shipping wine have no honest effect on alcohol abuse... but they do shuffle money around.

For matter, 3 tier distribution is just a jobs program that passes costs to the consumer.

[Conan71]

I don't disagree with cannon_fodder as a matter of consumer policy and know almost nothing about how liquor prices are regulated in Oklahoma.  The problem is that liquor price fixing under state regulations, if properly designed and implemented, is exempt from the Sherman Act under the "State Action Doctrine."  The State Action Doctrine is one of those unsung aspects of federalism that, in spite of the protestations of the current Republican Party, and over the objections of the historic Republican Party, remain in place.  The federal government does not regulate state governments in the area of competition law. 

However, a Supreme Court case finding a California pricing arrangement to be a violation of the Act is California Liquor Dealers v. MidCal Aluminum, 445 U.S. 97 (1980).  In this case the Court held that a pricing scheme that allows private parties to set prices by agreement did not have sufficient direct state involvement to bring the scheme within the Act, even though it was clear that official state policy supported the arrangement.  The problem was a lack of active state government supervision or approval of the result.

Under this holding, which appears to be good law 30 years later, prices set simply by a meeting between two Oklahoma liquor distributors and not supervised or submitted to the ABC for approval would probably be illegal.  If the ABC has final approval of the prices, it is probably legal.  As I said earlier, I've had no involvement with the ABC or liquor wholesalers, so I can only speculate about the facts.

The difference in illegality and punishment hinges upon the ability to detect an infraction and to actually enforce it.  The ability to detect the infraction seems to hinge on if everyone who cares has been properly paid off.

[DolfanBob]

My biggest gripe with Oklahoma Beer is the inability to get strong Bud or Coors even in the liquor store.

I would be happy if they just would get rid of the 3.2 beers that you can get at the liquor stores and just stock the strong beers at the grocery stores that you cant get at the liquor stores.

i.e. Modelo, Land Shark, Heineken, Corona etc.etc.
i.e. Budweiser, Busch, Coors, Miller, Keystone etc.etc.

[patric]

It took almost 30 years to get liquor by the drink on a ballot, let alone pass, and it's been alomst 30 years since it passed, maybe, just maybe, you might get it on a ballot.

Maybe if it were county option... but then again, I dont hear much outrage from Tulsa or OKC on the statewide plan this weekend for police to raid bars and arrest anyone they decide is public drunk (a charge that requires only an officer's desire to make an arrest), or the old vice squad (street crimes) tactic of undercovers swamping bartenders with drink orders then slipping in an older-looking minor with a marked bill.

That sort of publicity might make some gated-community types feel safer, but also keeps a lot of upscale business from setting up shop in Draconian Oklahoma.

[dbacks fan]

Maybe if it were county option... but then again, I dont hear much outrage from Tulsa or OKC on the statewide plan this weekend for police to raid bars and arrest anyone they decide is public drunk (a charge that requires only an officer's desire to make an arrest), or the old vice squad (street crimes) tactic of undercovers swamping bartenders with drink orders then slipping in an older-looking minor with a marked bill.

Patric, can you provide a link to what you are referencing? I know every municipality is stepping up like every year, but I would like to read more about what you are bringing up in this post.

[TheTed]

All of this garbage is why I have and will continue to purchase the majority of my beer out of state. Missouri is one of the few states where Republicans actually practice what they preach when it comes to small government and alcohol laws.

I saw this article recently and thought of Oklahoma. I'm sure we have some crazy laws on the books pertaining to transporting alcohol or bringing it in from out of state.

Alabama Criminal Codes state transporting more than five gallons of alcohol is a felony offense punishable by no less than one year but no more than five years in prison.
Drivers are allowed to possess three quarts of liquor or three quarts of wine along with one case of brewed or malt beverages

http://www.sandmountainreporter.com/news/local/article_d5b7acb8-1219-11e0-b7aa-001cc4c03286.html

Oklahoma's already turned activities done by the majority of the population into sex offenses (peeing outdoors).

[patric]

I know every municipality is stepping up like every year, but I would like to read more about what you are bringing up in this post.

OK Officers Going To Bars On New Year's Eve
Last Update: 12/28 6:13 pm
New Year's Eve Police Patrols in Green Country will not be the same. Oklahoma Highway Patrol, TPD and Broken Arrow officers will be out at the bars with everyone else.
They won't be partying; they'll be patrolling inside area bars as well as the streets.

If anyone inside the bars looks like they clearly should have been cut off, too drunk to stand up, they can arrest that person inside the bar, for public intoxication and possibly arrest whoever served them too.

Hundreds of Oklahoma officers are crashing New Year's Eve bars in Tulsa, in addition to street DUI patrols.
"Not only you the driver," Tulsa police Officer, Craig Murray said. "We'll go after the social host that gave you too many drinks and allowed you to leave...the server, the bartenders," he added. "We're going to pull bar tabs; we're going to pull receipts."

Dont get me wrong, there's always some people that act irresponsibly and drive drunk, and deserve to be locked up, but killing tourism and the night life that attracts young professionals hasn't been an effective strategy to deal with that.  So, where's the outrage?  If we sheepishy accept high-profile schemes to amass alcohol-related arrests, how can we expect voters to reform our archaic alcohol laws?

[Red Arrow]

"Not only you the driver," Tulsa police Officer, Craig Murray said. "We'll go after the social host that gave you too many drinks and allowed you to leave...the server, the bartenders," he added. "We're going to pull bar tabs; we're going to pull receipts."

Pay in cash and don't run a tab.

[DolfanBob]

"Meh" I know where I will be at Midnight Friday.
Covers up to the neck and dreaming about 2011.
That plan has worked fantastic for several years now.

[dbacks fan]

OK Officers Going To Bars On New Year's Eve
Last Update: 12/28 6:13 pm
New Year's Eve Police Patrols in Green Country will not be the same. Oklahoma Highway Patrol, TPD and Broken Arrow officers will be out at the bars with everyone else.
They won't be partying; they'll be patrolling inside area bars as well as the streets.

If anyone inside the bars looks like they clearly should have been cut off, too drunk to stand up, they can arrest that person inside the bar, for public intoxication and possibly arrest whoever served them too.

Hundreds of Oklahoma officers are crashing New Year's Eve bars in Tulsa, in addition to street DUI patrols.
"Not only you the driver," Tulsa police Officer, Craig Murray said. "We'll go after the social host that gave you too many drinks and allowed you to leave...the server, the bartenders," he added. "We're going to pull bar tabs; we're going to pull receipts."

I'm not an attorney, and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Select last night, but I have a real problem with the police walking into a bar that they have not been called to by anyone, and the police asking for the bar tabs just seem way out of bounds. So I'm sitting there by myself my friends that came with me have left, I've only had four drinks in three hours, but I'm picking up the tab for the group and it comes out to $175.00. They are going to attempt to arrest me for that??? Even though I'm waiting for a cab??? I don't think so.

[custosnox]

I'm not an attorney, and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Select last night, but I have a real problem with the police walking into a bar that they have not been called to by anyone, and the police asking for the bar tabs just seem way out of bounds. So I'm sitting there by myself my friends that came with me have left, I've only had four drinks in three hours, but I'm picking up the tab for the group and it comes out to $175.00. They are going to attempt to arrest me for that??? Even though I'm waiting for a cab??? I don't think so.

Yeah, the servers are NOT happy about this one up at work.  Personally, I think that seizing financial records from a business would violate one of those amendment thingies.  I don't think I would just had em over no matter how much the cop huffed and puffed.  I mentioned this at work and someone responded that they would close down the bar then stand at the doors and wait for the a warrant. 

[patric]

Yeah, the servers are NOT happy about this one up at work.  Personally, I think that seizing financial records from a business would violate one of those amendment thingies.  I don't think I would just had em over no matter how much the cop huffed and puffed.  I mentioned this at work and someone responded that they would close down the bar then stand at the doors and wait for the a warrant. 

When you research it further, even police demanding patron's drivers licenses inside bars or restaurants is legally questionable.  By law, showing your DL on such a request is voluntary, but the way Street Crimes worked around it was to threatened anyone who didnt "volunteer" with a Public Drunk arrest.

This was explained to me many years ago by a Tulsa Police officer;
"If you are in a bar, and you are drinking, I can arrest you for public drunk."

But getting back on topic, The DPS' "special emphasis" on New Years was orchestrated as a media photo-op, with embedding reporter ride-alongs planned from the start.  Now, if this sort of theatrics is what we seem to want from alcohol enforcement, how could the efforts to correct antiquated and corrupt alcohol laws stand a chance?

[custosnox]

what gets me is I had a buddy of mine get arrested for Public Drunk when we were hanging out in another friends garage.  That is a really bad law that allows Police way too much leeway in enforment.

[Conan71]

what gets me is I had a buddy of mine get arrested for Public Drunk when we were hanging out in another friends garage.  That is a really bad law that allows Police way too much leeway in enforment.

Lemme guess:

You guys were getting a bit loud or fired off a spud gun or golf ball launcher, someone called the cops about the noise, when they showed up your buddy smarted off and got arrested.  How's my aim? 

Cops generally don't show up out of the blue and start arresting people drinking in their garage with friends.