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SXSW
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« Reply #645 on: May 13, 2015, 01:20:38 pm » |
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The plan for the Zink Dam rebuild that is part of this estimate includes a separate whitewater area on the east side of the dam. It's part of the PDF that Vision 2025 posted. It potentially could be used more adjacent to the park as opposed to right by PSO where you have to dodge the rebar from the old dam still in the river. It also appears that the estimate is not just for dams/maintenance but also shoreline improvements behind the dams. |
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Conan71
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« Reply #646 on: May 13, 2015, 01:50:06 pm » |
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The plan for the Zink Dam rebuild that is part of this estimate includes a separate whitewater area on the east side of the dam. It's part of the PDF that Vision 2025 posted. It potentially could be used more adjacent to the park as opposed to right by PSO where you have to dodge the rebar from the old dam still in the river.
It also appears that the estimate is not just for dams/maintenance but also shoreline improvements behind the dams.
The whitewater feature on the east side of the river shouldn’t require down-stream impoundment for it to function though. |
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"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first” -Ronald Reagan
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swake
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« Reply #647 on: May 13, 2015, 01:51:08 pm » |
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The Zink dam has been on its last legs for years and it’s never been safe for people to be around. This plan fixes that. The new Zink dam/lake and the improvements that will be made to it will be an important part of the new park.
It also adds additional lake areas within the riverbed, especially in the area from 104th to 71st which is actually a major tourist draw for Tulsa. The casino, like it or not, adds thousands of jobs to the area. Maybe people will travel to Tulsa for the Gathering Place, maybe not. But they do come to the casinos. And will many more come more with the new Margaritville construction. Even more so with the Golf venue at The Riverwalk and REI at 71st.
The river being constantly completely empty isn’t normal, and it’s not just the drought. It’s that water is held back at Keystone for power generation decreasing the flow during most of the daylight hours. This plan fixes that for the four miles of the river in midtown Tulsa that would not have a dam.
The rest of what 2025 will be isn’t out yet. I would add $60 million to buy out the concrete plant and offer that to Simon in trade for the Turkey Mountain land for an Outlet Mall as part of 2025 v2. Turkey Mountain recreation area grows, we get rid of an eyesore on the West Bank and keep commercial development in Tulsa and near downtown where existing infrastructure can handle the traffic. And the mall can complement The Gathering Place as a draw to people from out of town.
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Conan71
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« Reply #648 on: May 13, 2015, 02:08:14 pm » |
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Sorry swake, can’t resist with the housing project across the street. I’d actually made this regarding the Bales Park Land Swap Clay Bird was proposing for Simon:  Big problem for an outlet mall along that site is access issues. You’d have trouble moving an extra 750 or so (Simon’s numbers, not mine) cars per hour through 23rd & Jackson, especially with the dysfunctional entrance and exit system off SW Boulevard. Word around the campfire has them eyeing the River District property in Jenks. Regardless what curmudgeons like Mike Sanditen keep claiming, the Horizon project in east Tulsa is quite viable and would generate more sales tax and ad valorem revenue than Simon’s project due to the restaurants, hotels, and office space proposed. Not to mention new housing it would likely help spur, according to the developers. |
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"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first” -Ronald Reagan
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Gaspar
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« Reply #649 on: May 13, 2015, 02:43:06 pm » |
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Big problem for an outlet mall along that site is access issues. You’d have trouble moving an extra 750 or so (Simon’s numbers, not mine) cars per hour through 23rd & Jackson, especially with the dysfunctional entrance and exit system off SW Boulevard. Word around the campfire has them eyeing the River District property in Jenks. Regardless what curmudgeons like Mike Sanditen keep claiming, the Horizon project in east Tulsa is quite viable and would generate more sales tax and ad valorem revenue than Simon’s project due to the restaurants, hotels, and office space proposed. Not to mention new housing it would likely help spur, according to the developers.
DING! DING! DING! DING!  Please choose a prize from the top row. |
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When attacked by a mob of clowns, always go for the juggler.
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Conan71
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« Reply #650 on: May 13, 2015, 02:55:57 pm » |
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DING! DING! DING! DING! Please choose a prize from the top row. Top row?? But I want a froggy! |
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"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first” -Ronald Reagan
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rebound
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« Reply #651 on: May 13, 2015, 03:23:02 pm » |
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...It also has more water in a longer stretch of the river.... for part of the time. Google earth shows the sand river bed in Wichita in its latest views. I was there about 3 weeks ago, and the river was full for miles. Their "hundreds of millions" (no idea how much they really spent) left them with a part time river, but water for a slightly longer percentage of the year. As will ours. It is NOT going to be a full time river like the Missouri or Mississippi...no matter what we do. If we put infrastructure in to make it that way, we would have Keystone II. And would likely lose a lot of the 'shoreline' we are supposedly trying to "enhance"...
Somebody (Conan?) help me here. But as I remember it, back in the late 80's and early 90's (when the dam was working properly) Zink lake was always full. The Tulsa rowing club crewed on it, etc. "The river" we are talking about is almost completely dependent upon (generally regular) releases from Keystone dam for water. So obviously, if they turn that off then the flowing water disappears. But that's the purpose of the dams. To hold impounded water so that even with the flow cut off temporarily there is still "water in the river. The River might not flow full time, but there would be water in the lakes all the time. |
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swake
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« Reply #652 on: May 13, 2015, 03:53:24 pm » |
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Somebody (Conan?) help me here. But as I remember it, back in the late 80's and early 90's (when the dam was working properly) Zink lake was always full. The Tulsa rowing club crewed on it, etc.
"The river" we are talking about is almost completely dependent upon (generally regular) releases from Keystone dam for water. So obviously, if they turn that off then the flowing water disappears. But that's the purpose of the dams. To hold impounded water so that even with the flow cut off temporarily there is still "water in the river. The River might not flow full time, but there would be water in the lakes all the time.
The Sand Springs dam is designed to even out the water flow through the day back to a more normal river flow. |
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Vision 2025
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« Reply #653 on: May 13, 2015, 04:40:53 pm » |
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The Sand Springs dam is designed to even out the water flow through the day back to a more normal river flow.
and the proposed dam would do it properly... |
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #654 on: May 13, 2015, 07:43:36 pm » |
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The Sand Springs dam is designed to even out the water flow through the day back to a more normal river flow.
Except that it is, by definition NOT a more normal river flow...for the Arkansas. It is the opposite of normal river flow. |
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"So he brandished a gun, never shot anyone or anything right?" --TeeDub, 17 Feb 2018.
I don’t share my thoughts because I think it will change the minds of people who think differently. I share my thoughts to show the people who already think like me that they are not alone.
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swake
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« Reply #655 on: May 13, 2015, 08:55:01 pm » |
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Except that it is, by definition NOT a more normal river flow...for the Arkansas. It is the opposite of normal river flow.
How so? |
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swake
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« Reply #656 on: May 13, 2015, 08:58:33 pm » |
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Sorry swake, can’t resist with the housing project across the street. I’d actually made this regarding the Bales Park Land Swap Clay Bird was proposing for Simon: Big problem for an outlet mall along that site is access issues. You’d have trouble moving an extra 750 or so (Simon’s numbers, not mine) cars per hour through 23rd & Jackson, especially with the dysfunctional entrance and exit system off SW Boulevard. Word around the campfire has them eyeing the River District property in Jenks. Regardless what curmudgeons like Mike Sanditen keep claiming, the Horizon project in east Tulsa is quite viable and would generate more sales tax and ad valorem revenue than Simon’s project due to the restaurants, hotels, and office space proposed. Not to mention new housing it would likely help spur, according to the developers. Buy out the Section 8 complex too then. With the medical school right there and being right next to downtown and the new park the west bank area has incredible potential. Eventually the area should also have a rail stops coming out of downtown on our new river bridge, one at the medical school and one at the outlet mall site. |
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TheArtist
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« Reply #657 on: May 14, 2015, 06:13:48 am » |
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How so?
The river would "normally" go mostly dry. You hear old stories of the ferries that would take people across the river before the bridge was built and they would often operate only part of the year for the rest of the time you could get or your horse and buggy across without the ferry. Seen pictures of cattle drives going across the riverbed without a bridge or ferry. Hence my earlier comment of how dramatically the river could change with the seasons. |
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"When you only have two pennies left in the world, buy a loaf of bread with one, and a lily with the other."-Chinese proverb. "Arts a staple. Like bread or wine or a warm coat in winter. Those who think it is a luxury have only a fragment of a mind. Mans spirit grows hungry for art in the same way h
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carltonplace
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« Reply #658 on: May 14, 2015, 07:04:08 am » |
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Buy out the Section 8 complex too then. With the medical school right there and being right next to downtown and the new park the west bank area has incredible potential. Eventually the area should also have a rail stops coming out of downtown on our new river bridge, one at the medical school and one at the outlet mall site.
I thought the city already owns this land? |
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swake
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« Reply #659 on: May 14, 2015, 07:46:35 am » |
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I thought the city already owns this land?
Does the city own that complex? |
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