Urbanizing Utica Sq.

[OurTulsa]

So I'm looking at the Vision map and I see what seems like an indication of a major future node where the 21st and Peoria transit corridors intersect and I'm think 'No Way' that intersection densifies.  I get to talking about it and the thought now is that maybe that exchange should be shifted to 21st and Utica Av.

If that happens Utica Sq. becomes the center of our transit universe - kinda.

Can Utica Sq. urbanize to meet the challenge.  Does it have to?

I can certainly see bits of the St. John's campus growing denser - I'm thinking 'good bye Wendy's' and there's lots of room around the NW/c of 21st and Utica. 

However, I'm most excited about the potential 'IN' Utica Sq.  There's already some dense apartment buildings on the periphery but what about placing some within, say the SE/c south of the post office and the NE/c east of the Olive Garden and the NW/c in place of the jewelry store or at least in place of the F&M drive-thru.  I can also see the parking lot in front of PF Changs turning into a 'common' with a signature mid-rise anchoring the south side of it.  Certainly, many of the one story buildings can be built up or raized and replaced with two/three story structures.
Am I dreaming of ruining Utica Sq.?  Will the surrounding neighborhoods crap on about traffic and crime coming of this densification?

[TheArtist]

 I would say most of your density could come on the periphery of Utica Square itself, like Utica Place. A nice midrise or highrise, or two where the old HP headquarters once was, something next to Utica Place, a few things on the same property as that highrise apartment tower to the east of Utica, 3 story buildings lining the south side of 21st opposite Utica and those highrise apartments, then more stuff going north on Utica itself on into Cherry Street and the Pearl... etc. But thats about it. I dont think anyone wants the older neighborhoods messed with, and I dont see much happening with Utica Square itself other than some occasional upgrading and minor infill. Kind of like what you see with the Plaza in KC with midrise and highrise buildings surrounding the Plaza itself, then the old neighborhoods behind those. 

[SXSW]

I've thought about this before.  The thing I would want to see first is the old H&P lot developed into a midrise hotel with condos above.  The main entrance and possibly a restaurant could open up onto the fountain plaza at the NW corner of 21st & Utica with parking in the garage to the north.  Views of downtown from there would be some of the best in the city, and you would be walking distance from shopping at Utica Square (and not far from Cherry Street and Brookside).  You would also be next to St. Johns and close to Hillcrest.

[DwnTwnTul]

What about building condos on top of the existing structures?

[jtcrissup]

I have not seen the map you refer to that puts a "transit node" at 21st/Peoria, where can I find it?

I live very near this area and have often walked around/through the property on the NW corner of 21st/Utica.  My understanding is Helmrich (sp?) owns this (as well as all of Utica Sq).  Not sure how true it is, but I have heard he had plans to develop this years ago (a mid-rise luxury "retirement" community, but not really sure if that is what was proposed) and many of the Swan Lake residents "fought" him about putting in more hi rise so close to residential, and that didn't sit well with him, so he has opted to let is "sit fallow" and refuses to do anything with it (all neighborhood gossip and hearsay...so probably about 50% or less true).  

Personally, I would love to see some really nice/upscale TRUE mixed use development with condos, retail, restaurants, offices, etc (like Utica Place but not so upscale to the point it is unattainable by 99% of the population like Utica Place is).  There is a HUGE parking garage there that services the existing building, but I doubt it is used to its full extent, so I think it could be folded into the development.  Additional parking could be done below grade, as possible.  Sidewalks all around the block could be restored/widened (walking down 21st is scary between St Louis and Utica as the traffic is ON TOP of the sidewalk) and sidewalk cafes/stores could be on the 1st floor.  

The other thing I have heard is there are a few remaining houses on "the block" that have held out from selling (referring to St Louis/Utica and 19th/21st as the block).  If those ever sell, they would make the block more complete and would allow a developer more flexibility with how it is developed.  It is not a matter on if, more a matter of when this happens.  Maybe 20 years from now, but hopefully whenever it is done it improves the area by bringing nice things in.

If a transit node were introduced, it would be cool for a route to follow the old streetcar route up St. Louis to a "node" in the Pearl district and then over to downtown (I think Swan Lake was the original turn around for a streetcar that went all the way downtown...19th/St Louis intersection is really weird/wide as a result).  There are SEVERAL old apartment buildings along St Louis (and nearby streets) from 19th all the way to 6th (maybe even further north?) that were built to use that route (original proof of TOD)...these old buildings would become very "trendy" (some already are trendy in Swan Lake 'hood) if this route was re-established and connected to downtown/other nodes with GOOD transportation options/connections.

[jtcrissup]

Lame attempt to show potential urban development layout of the NW corner of 21st/Utica...surround block with wide sidewalks/green belts, keep existing structures (except the few remaining houses, which would be torn down...sorry, I would love to keep them, but they stick out as it is) and build up leaving no surface parking behind.  Keep a few "green/park" areas as public areas.

Disclaimer:  I did this for fun in about 10 minutes based on spending lots of time in/around this property...not to be confused with a "real" development plan/strategy.  I just think the block is SO underutilized and has a TON of potential.  Would love to hear what others think.

[jtcrissup]

Also...would be AWESOME to see the original Swan Lake fountain restored when/if they spend a bunch of money on this property.  Would probably go a long way with "easing" the tensions of those living in the neighborhood.

[TheArtist]

  One way you could "ease tensions" with the neighbors would be to stagger the building heights.  Highest near the intersection, lowest near the neighborhood.  8 stories or more where the old midrise was, then say a 5 or 6 story next to that, then about 3 stories closest to the neighborhood. Plus thats a long expanse of property facing 21st, so having at least 3 different looking buildings (or facades) would break it up and make it more interesting.


   If I were to play "king developer for the day" lol.  I would put a loggia over a wide sidewalk (or 3 different ones to go with the different buildings) all along 21st to enhance the pedestrian nature of the area. Then right at the corner facing the intersection have a grand archway that opened into an enclosed galleria that ran diagonally to the opposite corner.  Shops, restaruants, etc. along the bottom floor,,, hotel, office, condo above.


So Loggias along 21st for a more pleasing and comfortable, outdoor, walking/shopping/dining experience.







Then an enclosed "street"/galleria running the length of the property from the SE Utica Square facing corner to the NW Swan Lake facing corner.

Nice but needed to be a wider street/sidewalk between the buildings.


Perhaps a bit too nice for Tulsa, even if I were KING developer for the day, but you get the general concept lol.



Either that or put something along these lines across from Holy Family or that empty lot across from Joe Mommas.  We need some interconnected, partially sheltered and completely sheltered, pedestrian friendly areas downtown for when the weather is too cold, rainy, too hot, etc. to keep life downtown.  Not an enclosed and isolated mall like the old William Center Forums, but something that melds right into the rest of a pedestrian friendly streetscape.  A seamless transition from exterior sidewalks to protected and interior sidewalks.  They have these types of things in cities all over the world for thousands of years, for a reason. They work.  They especially can help downtown retail compete with the cozy suburban malls, during the bad weather days.   Would be an inviting place to go after a game, or concert, for people who lived downtown, etc. no matter what the time of year or weather.  

[SXSW]

Lame attempt to show potential urban development layout of the NW corner of 21st/Utica...surround block with wide sidewalks/green belts, keep existing structures (except the few remaining houses, which would be torn down...sorry, I would love to keep them, but they stick out as it is) and build up leaving no surface parking behind.  Keep a few "green/park" areas as public areas.

Disclaimer:  I did this for fun in about 10 minutes based on spending lots of time in/around this property...not to be confused with a "real" development plan/strategy.  I just think the block is SO underutilized and has a TON of potential.  Would love to hear what others think.

Interesting concept.  My idea for that site is similar though I would put a midrise or highrise hotel with condos above opposite the fountain with the main entry off of 21st in front of the fountain (facing east).  Parking would be in an expansion of the existing parking garage next to F&M Bank.  And then like you have proposed build urban apartments or townhomes on St. Louis and 19th St.  I don't think retail would work well here though and would take away from the concentration already in Utica Square, JMO.

[OurTulsa]

Helmerich owns all but the four on the corner.  You're right -when they sell.  

Interesting concept - putting a streetcar down St. Louis where it once existed.  I could really see St. Louis becoming a bike boulevard but I think you'll get more bang for your buck inserting a fixed route on Utica/21st.  

That consolidated block has some serious potential.  I think the fountain/green space at the hard corner of 21st/Utica goes away.  Something that mirrors the southwest corner in articulation would seem very appropriate, even if it were somewhat taller.  

A very narrow street should be cut into that big block connecting 21st and 19th midway through.  Make it a living street with no delineation between vehicle/pedestrian space, a little fountain in the center (plaza like) allow the buildings to front it and violla you have the coolest little urban street in Tulsa.  I think you definitely scale whatever goes in back toward the neighborhood.  I think it urreasonable to suggest that detached homes should stay or be built back at the corner of 19th/St. Louis but maybe townhomes with a small corner commercial space at the hard corner.  Set the buildings back a few ft. behind a generous sidewalk with trees lining the space between the walking a street parking path.

Call me crazy but I also think that some sort of modification of the intersection of 21st and Utica is in order.  Get rid of the light and make it a big traffic circle around a good sized fountain.  We can put a big statue of Walt in the center.  Make 21st St. going west a three lane street (people at 8:00am will hate it for a short while and then they will adapt but it will have a permanently positive impact on both adjoining neighborhoods particularly if there are generous sidewalks and tree plantings).  The road diet will help the walkability of that node.  It shouldn't have any affect on emergency vehicles at St. Johns.

I still like the idea of filling in Utica Sq. itself.  Give that place another dimension.  Throw some residential in the mix above some of the shops or along the backside of the south side.  Could be very cool.

[OpenYourEyesTulsa]

Get rid of the light and make it a big traffic circle around a good sized fountain. 

I like the traffic circle idea.  It makes it more classy and the vehicle, pedestrian, and bike traffic co-mingle without traffic lights.  The only bad thing is training Okies not to go the wrong way or drive straight into the fountain in the middle.   

[OurTulsa]

I like the traffic circle idea.  It makes it more classy and the vehicle, pedestrian, and bike traffic co-mingle without traffic lights.  The only bad thing is training Okies not to go the wrong way or drive straight into the fountain in the middle.   

That's why the circle has to be generous in size so that it's unambiguous.  It has to be large enough so a driver couldn't see across it and be tempted to cut left or even question as to whether a left turn is allowed.  Bartlett intersection at 5th/Main while clear to me allows easy ability to turn left.

[TheArtist]

Hmmm, had never considered the Traffic Circle idea for that intersection.  I like the sound of it though. 

[Red Arrow]

Hmmm, had never considered the Traffic Circle idea for that intersection.  I like the sound of it though. 

That's because you never lived in New Jersey in the 40s and 50s.

[jtcrissup]

I like all the ideas, especially the loggia sidewalk.  I imagined the "scale" of the highrises to naturally get smaller as they "blend" into the neighborhood.  I also like the traffic circle idea, but one idea I think I like better (and would be easier to implement in Tulsa) would be to have (if the pedestrian button is pushed) the entire intersection get red lights so peds can cross in all directions(even diagonal) at once (ie you don't have to cross two streets to get from Utica Sq to this property).  They had this in downtown Aberdeen and I thought is was awesome for pedestrians and motorists alike, plus it is safer as you don't risk getting plowed by someone trying to turn that is not used to seeing/looking for a pedestrian (ie turning left when you have a green light but no green arrow happens the same time a the ped get a "walk" signal).

I think this simple change to the traffic flow of the intersection would "connect" this property to Utica Square to expand the shopping options and encourage people to "walk about" vs get in their car to drive to the "next shop".  I think this also makes retail more viable on this property as it would be seen as an extention of Utica Sq, not a competiton.  

I like the idea of a really nice hotel, but I would like to see it as a boutique hotel with a mixture of high end condos/apartments in the same building.

I am opposed to a "throughfare" for automobiles on this block.  I think they need access to the parking garage(s) in the center of the development and then everything else should be "pedestrian only".  The loggia covered sidewalks would go a long way to make this more enjoyable during inclement weather.  

I also think they should have some sort of canoe rental available on Swan Lake.  I have been out on it in a John boat to treat the lake for algae (with the City's approval of course...I would not recommend anyone go out there and get on the lake without permission!), and it is a REALLY cool experience I think all should be able to do this.  I am sure lawyers/fear of litigation/liability on the city's behalf would make this unbearable to a private entity, but maybe if an outfitter store was located on this property they could make a deal with the city to "test ride" their canoes/kayaks on Swan Lake and MAYBE even have 1 or 2 rentals set aside for hourly rental.

All pipe dreams, but maybe someone with experience/stroke woud read this and make things happen...I am always available to pitch ideas for free...I just don't have the time (or money) to make things happen...