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May 29, 2020, 01:51:49 am
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Author Topic: Camera records unexpected violence  (Read 10351 times)
nathanm
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« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2009, 12:09:02 am »

Have you ever had a loaded weapon pointed at you at point blank range or, more importantly, have you ever been under fire? If not, you unfortnately have no real experience in the sort of fear that results from that. I also stick by my original point, mainly because I have never been tased.
It depends on the definition of "point blank." If it includes a scenario where a police officer is standing next to their Crown Vic pointing a gun at me while I stand on the sidewalk less than ten feet away, then yes, I indeed have had a loaded weapon pointed at me at point blank range. I was 16 at the time, so perhaps it had less effect than it might have during my more "sane" years.

I did not like it, but I would prefer it to a possibly lethal electric shock, if that shock were to be administered in combination with handguns being pointed at me. (Note that the handgun thing is a constant in either scenario, so the only real question is whether you'd rather be tased or given the opportunity to surrender)

Never have had a firearm discharged at me, though.
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Wilbur
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« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2009, 05:10:22 am »

I would much prefer to have a gun pointed at me and not fired than be tased. People die from tasers.

I believe if you will check with the courts and the Taser industry, no Taser use has ever been proven to cause death.  Much to the dismay of the media who likes to put in headlines like "Man Dies After Being Tased." 
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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2009, 07:58:08 am »

On a some what related note,  I haven't been shot at in 2 years.  I haven't been shot at in Tulsa or even had a loaded weapon pointed at me (that I know of) for 3 years.  That's some kind of record. 

Since I moved to Tulsa in 2003:

2003: Secret Service mistakes me for a terrorist when I drive around a parked firetruck looking for the I-244 ramp downtown (I went around it by turning into the near lane, hardly a barricade!).  Dick Cheney was apparently staying at the Adams Mark and the "kid" gawking around like an idiot in a Buick who "snuck" past the barricade was not welcome.  I was politely asked to get out of the car by men in black suits with firearms, I said I lived in Tulsa but had an Iowa drivers license.  I also had ammunition in the trunk with a book on Constitutional law, this was not comforting to them.  I was not allowed downtown the rest of the weekend and I didn't get to McDonalds in time for a McGriddle.

2005:  Went hunting on public land.  I was looking through my binoculars and saw some jackass with a 30-06 in a tree stand aiming STRAIGHT me.  He shot a rabbit that was between us (deer season, everyone out there surely appreciate that shot) and in line with where I was sitting, about 20 yards short of where I was.  I nearly shot back at this stupid SOB, but instead stood up, took the rabbit and left, never to return to public hunting land in Oklahoma.

2006: On my way home from work heading South on Harvard at the BA.  A hatchback pulls up next to me and slows down short of the light but close enough to be strange.  He rolls down the window so I figure he needs directions or to tell me I have a flat, so I roll down my window.  He then brandishes a 9mm+ automatic handgun (silver) and starts shooting into my car.  His passenger liens forward to watch (driver: white guy, "Starter" jacket style coat on, backward hat, ~20.  Passenger: I think he was a black guy, don't really recall.  Car:  hatchback with a stupid extra load tailpipe.  Gun:  Silver, automatic, 9mm+ as I distinctly remember seeing the barrel.).  I think I ducked, not really sure.  He sped off immediately onto the BA on-ramp heading towards downtown.  For a split second I was going to chase him, then realized this was not a wise decision and called 911, ears ringing.  I had powder burns on my passenger seat, but all the shots (3?  Really not sure at all) went in one window and out the other.  A back window of a car going the other way was shot out.  They shut down the BA towards downtown but it was clearly not going to have any effect.  Cops said it was 1) road rage (did you cut anyone off?  Ummm, it was midtown at 5:15, probably.  2) Mistaken identity or 3) some jackass gang wanna be.  Someone matching the description was arrested a few weeks later after the same basic stunt on 169 left a bullet hole in an empty car seat.

2007:  Route 666 (between Cortez and Farmington, or thereabout anyway) in the Navajo reservation, NW New Mexico, 3am, pulling a sailboat, transmission was dead so going 10mph with the flashers on.  Been up for 40 hours with a few naps.  Not happy.  In mesa territory (out of the mountains of Colorado).  Out of the corner of my eye I see fireworks and comment to my friend, who suggests I'm crazy.  The fireworks are followed by sparks on the road at which point I see a camp fire on the side of one of the mesas and a distinctive muzzle flash.  Some idiot(s) are out camping/drinking/tripping and see a sailboat, in the middle of the damn desert, drive by at 10mph with flashers going and start taking pot shots at the boat.  I floor it, we get to the red line and 15 mph for our getaway.  The drive back to Albuquerque takes forever and a half.

Good times, good times.
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RecycleMichael
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« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2009, 08:12:11 am »

Remind me not to ride with cannon fodder.
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patric
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« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2009, 09:40:18 am »

I believe if you will check with the courts and the Taser industry, no Taser use has ever been proven to cause death.  Much to the dismay of the media who likes to put in headlines like "Man Dies After Being Tased." 

Then tobacco industry fell back on that logic for a long, long time.
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nathanm
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« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2009, 12:56:35 pm »

I believe if you will check with the courts and the Taser industry, no Taser use has ever been proven to cause death.  Much to the dismay of the media who likes to put in headlines like "Man Dies After Being Tased." 
So if you tase someone, and someone goes into cardiac arrest and dies, that's due to...misfortune? Not the taser?

I take it you've never heard that people's hearts are sometimes stopped by electric shock?

A taser is probably less likely to kill than a gunshot, but so is a bean bag shotgun shell, yet those also manage to stop people's hearts sometimes when they get shot in the sternum.

The problem with "less than lethal" weapons is that the bar to their use is low as compared to the use of "deadly force."
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guido911
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« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2009, 10:46:44 am »

I came across this video and story of some white guy having the audacity to place orange cones out on the street while watering apparently public property, What does he get for his trouble? You guessed it. Harassed and beat to death by African Americans. Where's the cry for a hate crime?  crickets.

http://www.kirotv.com/news/19476229/detail.html

Oh, and the murderer that pled guilty and apologized for his crime? 11 years.
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MH2010
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« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2009, 12:09:12 pm »

A nationwide study examining the safety of Tasers« used by law enforcement agencies suggests the devices are safe, causing a low occurrence of serious injuries.

"This study is the first large, independent study of injuries associated with Tasers. It is the first injury epidemiology study to review every Taser deployment and to reliably assess the overall risk and severity of injuries in real world conditions," said William Bozeman, M.D., the lead investigator and an emergency medicine specialist at Wake Forest University School of Medicine. "The injury rate is low and most injuries appear to be minor. These results support the safety of the devices."

Bozeman will present the study results at the American College of Emergency Physicians' Research Forum in Seattle, Wash., Oct. 8. In a review of nearly 1,000 cases, 99.7 per cent of those subjected to a Taser had mild injuries, such as scrapes and bruises, or none at all. Only three subjects (0.3%) suffered injuries severe enough to need hospital admission. Two had head injuries suffered in falls after Taser use. A third subject was admitted to a hospital two days after arrest with a medical condition of unclear relationship to the Taser. Two subjects died, but autopsy reports indicate that neither death was related to the Taser. Earlier partial results involving 597 cases were published in the September issue of Annals of Emergency Medicine.

The independent prospective study was funded by the National Institute of Justice and included six law enforcement agencies across the United States. A tactical physician at each participating agency reviewed police and medical records after each successful application of a Taser. Injuries were identified and classified as mild, moderate, or severe and their relationship to the Taser was classified as direct, indirect, or uncertain.

Tasers are used by many police departments in the United States and are credited with decreasing police officer and suspect injuries and deaths due to police use of force. However, the devices have been surrounded with controversy.

"This is the largest independent study to date, and the first to detail the medical effects of Tasers under real-world conditions," said Bozeman. "With physician review of 100 percent of Taser uses, this study promises to give us the best information yet on the medical risks of these weapons."

Bozeman said results from previous studies were limited by the use of animal models and of healthy police volunteers in training settings, not criminal suspects in real-world conditions.

"The Taser is a weapon and it can clearly cause injuries and even deaths in some cases," Bozeman said. "The question is 'how likely is it to cause a significant injury" and whether that risk of injury outweighs the benefits it brings."

Co-researchers were J. Tripp Winslow, M.D., M.P.H.; Derrel Graham, M.D.; Brian Martin, M.D.; Joseph J. Heck, D.O.; all of the Department of Emergency Medicine at Wake Forest University; Louisiana State University, Inova Fairfax Hospital (Va.), and University Medical Center (Nev.).
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guido911
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« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2009, 12:10:48 pm »

A nationwide study examining the safety of Tasers« used by law enforcement agencies suggests the devices are safe, causing a low occurrence of serious injuries.

"This study is the first large, independent study of injuries associated with Tasers. It is the first injury epidemiology study to review every Taser deployment and to reliably assess the overall risk and severity of injuries in real world conditions," said William Bozeman, M.D., the lead investigator and an emergency medicine specialist at Wake Forest University School of Medicine. "The injury rate is low and most injuries appear to be minor. These results support the safety of the devices."

Bozeman will present the study results at the American College of Emergency Physicians' Research Forum in Seattle, Wash., Oct. 8. In a review of nearly 1,000 cases, 99.7 per cent of those subjected to a Taser had mild injuries, such as scrapes and bruises, or none at all. Only three subjects (0.3%) suffered injuries severe enough to need hospital admission. Two had head injuries suffered in falls after Taser use. A third subject was admitted to a hospital two days after arrest with a medical condition of unclear relationship to the Taser. Two subjects died, but autopsy reports indicate that neither death was related to the Taser. Earlier partial results involving 597 cases were published in the September issue of Annals of Emergency Medicine.

The independent prospective study was funded by the National Institute of Justice and included six law enforcement agencies across the United States. A tactical physician at each participating agency reviewed police and medical records after each successful application of a Taser. Injuries were identified and classified as mild, moderate, or severe and their relationship to the Taser was classified as direct, indirect, or uncertain.

Tasers are used by many police departments in the United States and are credited with decreasing police officer and suspect injuries and deaths due to police use of force. However, the devices have been surrounded with controversy.

"This is the largest independent study to date, and the first to detail the medical effects of Tasers under real-world conditions," said Bozeman. "With physician review of 100 percent of Taser uses, this study promises to give us the best information yet on the medical risks of these weapons."

Bozeman said results from previous studies were limited by the use of animal models and of healthy police volunteers in training settings, not criminal suspects in real-world conditions.

"The Taser is a weapon and it can clearly cause injuries and even deaths in some cases," Bozeman said. "The question is 'how likely is it to cause a significant injury" and whether that risk of injury outweighs the benefits it brings."

Co-researchers were J. Tripp Winslow, M.D., M.P.H.; Derrel Graham, M.D.; Brian Martin, M.D.; Joseph J. Heck, D.O.; all of the Department of Emergency Medicine at Wake Forest University; Louisiana State University, Inova Fairfax Hospital (Va.), and University Medical Center (Nev.).


Let's just go back to the good ol' days and bust out the billy clubs and blackjacks.
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MH2010
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« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2009, 01:17:02 pm »

The blackjacks were no joke.
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guido911
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« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2009, 01:26:44 pm »

The blackjacks were no joke.

You know I was kidding, right?
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DolfanBob
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« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2009, 12:00:34 pm »

You know I was kidding, right?

Didnt they go from Blackjacks to the Mag Flashlights ?
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MH2010
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« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2009, 12:25:19 pm »

No. Officers started using mag lights instead of their billy clubs.  It's not a good practice. 


http://user.cavenet.com/grakat/blackjack.htm
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sauerkraut
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« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2009, 12:40:29 pm »

Bad things can happen anywhere. Indianapolis can be very ruff. Smiley
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DolfanBob
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« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2009, 03:38:21 pm »

No. Officers started using mag lights instead of their billy clubs.  It's not a good practice. 


http://user.cavenet.com/grakat/blackjack.htm

My Dad had one of those back in the good ol day's of the TPD.
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