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November 19, 2017, 01:49:12 pm
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Author Topic: Fregonese Threaten Legal Action against Dissenter  (Read 7412 times)
Double A
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« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2008, 01:03:31 pm »

I do plan on participating, btw. It is not my intent to discourage people getting involved, either. I just want people to go into this process with their eyes wide open, prepared to guard against the pitfalls that have plagued other planning processes that Frego has undertaken.
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MDepr2007
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« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2008, 02:21:46 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by swake

quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
Just who are the Tulsa planners you speak of and why haven't they listened to every citizen before and why would they start now?
 


Logistically how exactly would a person who is a planner go about making sure that they EVERY citizen? Seeing as there are some 384,037 people that live in Tulsa that could prove challenging.  What happens if all those 384,037 people don’t agree on everything? What should the planner do in that case?




Thats too easy, first they would weed out those living outside a certain area of the city a keep it in the middle idea sorta.
Then they would get the paper to only print certain items over and over and spin the other ideas as ridiculous.
Then we can come on here and read the 4 or 5 multi-named posters add their spin ...
ok the last was just to make those thin skinned on here from feeling left out and maybe realizing they are not that big of deal  [}:)]
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Double A
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« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2008, 04:43:44 pm »

One more thing in the interest of full public disclosure and citing sources, who are the sources of private donors providing funding to PlaniTulsa? Where are these donations coming from?

C'mon committee members, practice what you preach.
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RecycleMichael
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« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2008, 04:51:55 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Double A
Really? Why don't you show me where PanderInc has disclosed this fact previously? Show and prove, Spincycle. You folks really hate it when your own B.S., biases, and conflicts of interests are used to call you on your hypocrisy. The public has a right to know that in similar planning processes undertaken by Frego that their voices clearly were not heard, so much so that it resulted in a Mayor and City Couyncil being recalled. You have been proven time and time again to be a lying sack of s#*t, so you're words are meaningless completely meaningless to me. BTW, I'll say whatever the hell I want.



How about this statement by ponderInc back in July?

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10583&SearchTerms=planner,advisor

By the way, I was asked to be an advisor to the project. I'm certainly not part of some "monied elite." I was asked b/c I show up to public meetings. I speak out. Through TulsaNow, I work to get people involved in the civic process. I'm passionate about helping Tulsa. And I guess someone took notice.

Gee doubleA. If only your anger could be used for intelligence...

Are you going to apologize? Show and prove (as you say)?
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MDepr2007
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« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2008, 05:36:24 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael

quote:
Originally posted by Double A
Really? Why don't you show me where PanderInc has disclosed this fact previously? Show and prove, Spincycle. You folks really hate it when your own B.S., biases, and conflicts of interests are used to call you on your hypocrisy. The public has a right to know that in similar planning processes undertaken by Frego that their voices clearly were not heard, so much so that it resulted in a Mayor and City Couyncil being recalled. You have been proven time and time again to be a lying sack of s#*t, so you're words are meaningless completely meaningless to me. BTW, I'll say whatever the hell I want.



How about this statement by ponderInc back in July?

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10583&SearchTerms=planner,advisor

By the way, I was asked to be an advisor to the project. I'm certainly not part of some "monied elite." I was asked b/c I show up to public meetings. I speak out. Through TulsaNow, I work to get people involved in the civic process. I'm passionate about helping Tulsa. And I guess someone took notice.

Gee doubleA. If only your anger could be used for intelligence...

Are you going to apologize? Show and prove (as you say)?



Not likely the last TulsaNow person to be rewarded for helping get KT elected and asked to continue pushing for the same downtown/midtown gig ....
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MDepr2007
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« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2008, 05:40:27 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Conan71

I'm a skeptic, but instead of making wild assumptions about our planning, I took the invitation to sign up and participate in the process.

I'm guessing the usual suspects will continue to piss and moan about it instead of having their voice heard.





people sure assume alot around here.

Speaking here gives you better numbers then to a group that can easily dismiss you even existed ,like they do in our "Quality of life" that someone ran on.
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RecycleMichael
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« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2008, 07:01:10 pm »

I can't believe that doubleA and markdpre2007 are against the PlaniTulsa process.

They are hung up on the fact that some people have already been working on the process before them. Everything must be either inside or outside to them.

This ain't some small group having cigars at the country club. This is a hundred people getting ready to listen to a thousand more people and make a plan. This is exactly how city planning is supposed to be. There had to be a limit to the size of the original volunteer corps and somebody got their feelings hurt. But whether you were on the list of planners and advisors or not, the meetings this week give you an equal chance to communicate. That is what this is all about.

If there is one thing I know about government (and I have worked for fifteen of them) is that communication is limited.

People don't know how to talk to city hall and city hall don't know how to talk to people.

Well, this is it. Everybody gets to participate, everybody's comments are recorded, everybody gets a chance to civic pride and suggest what they think will make a better Tulsa. If not, there will still be opportunities to communicate and now 30 years later we can share it electronically. Maybe technology can save us.

This is the first time in 30 years the city has gone through this exercise. Hundreds of people are excited about the opportunity. Everybody who can get off work should go. Everybody who isn't afraid to weigh in on their vision of Tulsa has to go. There are hundreds signed up and there should be hundreds more. More opinions matter just like more books make a better library.

I hope they both doubleA and mdpre2007 attend. The city of Tulsa planners need to hear from them, too. This is a sincere offer to listen.

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Conan71
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« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2008, 10:17:16 am »

quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007

quote:
Originally posted by Conan71

I'm a skeptic, but instead of making wild assumptions about our planning, I took the invitation to sign up and participate in the process.

I'm guessing the usual suspects will continue to piss and moan about it instead of having their voice heard.





people sure assume alot around here.

Speaking here gives you better numbers then to a group that can easily dismiss you even existed ,like they do in our "Quality of life" that someone ran on.



Dis-jointed post, but I *think* you just made my point.

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MDepr2007
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« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2008, 10:48:10 am »

So what was this about originaly???

See ya Monday or Tuesday or both .

Lets hope we are actually heard unlike the $40,000 group that listened to us about the next police chief.That meeting was also recorded and notes taken to help choose the next chief.... What happened to those voices??
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Double A
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« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2008, 12:04:27 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael

quote:
Originally posted by Double A
Really? Why don't you show me where PanderInc has disclosed this fact previously? Show and prove, Spincycle. You folks really hate it when your own B.S., biases, and conflicts of interests are used to call you on your hypocrisy. The public has a right to know that in similar planning processes undertaken by Frego that their voices clearly were not heard, so much so that it resulted in a Mayor and City Couyncil being recalled. You have been proven time and time again to be a lying sack of s#*t, so you're words are meaningless completely meaningless to me. BTW, I'll say whatever the hell I want.



How about this statement by ponderInc back in July?

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10583&SearchTerms=planner,advisor

By the way, I was asked to be an advisor to the project. I'm certainly not part of some "monied elite." I was asked b/c I show up to public meetings. I speak out. Through TulsaNow, I work to get people involved in the civic process. I'm passionate about helping Tulsa. And I guess someone took notice.

Gee doubleA. If only your anger could be used for intelligence...

Are you going to apologize? Show and prove (as you say)?



My mistake, I'll admit it. I don't owe you an apology, I've never gotten an apology from you when I've exposed your lies.

Exhibit A

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

quote:Originally posted by Double A
This is being rushed to be done half that time so Da Mare can claim it as an accomplishment before her term is over.


    You really should try to have the facts when you make up innuendo.

    The handout last night said the process has a timeline that runs through December 2009. That means the plan won't be finished till after the November 2009 election.

   
Uh, Spincycle, the fact is this timeline was announced before that election date was changed.

Just for the record, to quote the Whirled:

Mayor sets deadline for city plan update


By KEVIN CANFIELD World Staff Writer
11/16/2006
Last Modified: 3/30/2008 4:41 AM

Mayor Kathy Taylor is shooting to have the city's comprehensive plan update completed before her first term in office ends in 2009, the Tulsa Metropolitan Area Planning Commission learned Wednesday.


BTW, that's just one example of PanderInc's  disclosure of being an Advisor. If you are going to claim Pander has disclosed this fact more than once, one example doesn't back up that claim either. Just saying.

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RecycleMichael
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« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2008, 01:01:14 pm »

I guess I was wrong by saying a handout said the process is tentavely scheduled to last till December 2009.

Your proof is a Tulsa world reporter saying that someone unnamed person speaking for TMAPC said the Mayor is shooting for completion in November 2009?

Wow. That is some stretching of the truth by me. I am so ashamed.

Stop trying to sabatoge the public input opportunity next week. Too many people are excited about it and are committing volunteer time to make it work.

There's no future being against everything.

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Chicken Little
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« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2008, 03:45:15 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Double A

I do plan on participating, btw.
Of course you will [/sarcasm]; I think you may be conflicted.

quote:
It is not my intent to discourage people getting involved, either.
I'm gonna have to call bullsh*t on that statement.  I'm not sure you want this to happen at all.  Oh sure, you pretend to be some kinda "man of the people", but when the people actually get the power (via planitulsa) you start to worry about what they might do with it. One could easily question your sincerity, AA.  

quote:
I just want people to go into this process with their eyes wide open, prepared to guard against the pitfalls that have plagued other planning processes that Frego has undertaken.
You pulled that "article" off of some wackadoodle anti-planning website because it suited your aim, which I'm starting to suspect is to deny Tulsans a voice in their future.  I suspect that enlightenment has nothing to do with it.  Why?  Because you ain't no libertarian, anti-planning, anti-zoning, anarchist; you regularly rail against developers who do their "free market" thing over in your 'hood, Cherry Street.  And you advocate for more property restrictions.

Here's a thought.  Figure out where you stand and stand there.  Stop milling about...either you want this to work or you want it to go away.  This thing is either going to fail or succeed, but you can't play both sides of the net.

« Last Edit: September 20, 2008, 03:50:09 pm by Chicken Little » Logged
Double A
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« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2008, 12:08:15 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little

quote:
Originally posted by Double A

I do plan on participating, btw.
Of course you will [/sarcasm]; I think you may be conflicted.

quote:
It is not my intent to discourage people getting involved, either.
I'm gonna have to call bullsh*t on that statement.  I'm not sure you want this to happen at all.  Oh sure, you pretend to be some kinda "man of the people", but when the people actually get the power (via planitulsa) you start to worry about what they might do with it. One could easily question your sincerity, AA.  

quote:
I just want people to go into this process with their eyes wide open, prepared to guard against the pitfalls that have plagued other planning processes that Frego has undertaken.
You pulled that "article" off of some wackadoodle anti-planning website because it suited your aim, which I'm starting to suspect is to deny Tulsans a voice in their future.  I suspect that enlightenment has nothing to do with it.  Why?  Because you ain't no libertarian, anti-planning, anti-zoning, anarchist; you regularly rail against developers who do their "free market" thing over in your 'hood, Cherry Street.  And you advocate for more property restrictions.

Here's a thought.  Figure out where you stand and stand there.  Stop milling about...either you want this to work or you want it to go away.  This thing is either going to fail or succeed, but you can't play both sides of the net.





Typical. It still doesn't change the fact that Frego is known for his reputation for pushing higher densities where they are not wanted or supported. Perhaps that's why he was chosen.  

I want this to work for the people, not against them. To say that those who have critisms about this process only want it to fail is like saying those that criticized that fascism disguised philanthropy Ballpark Trust only wanted it to fail.

I can do whatever the hell I want, btw.

There is a very simple solution to quell the concerns those who have doubts about this, require a public vote to approve the final approval, adoption and implementation of this plan. It's clear that the public overwhelming does not trust our local government to act in the public's best interest according to PlaniTulsa's own polling data. Those who are reluctant to allow this are the ones with truly questionable motives.


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Chicken Little
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« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2008, 05:01:43 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Double A

quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little

quote:
Originally posted by Double A

I do plan on participating, btw.
Of course you will [/sarcasm]; I think you may be conflicted.

quote:
It is not my intent to discourage people getting involved, either.
I'm gonna have to call bullsh*t on that statement.  I'm not sure you want this to happen at all.  Oh sure, you pretend to be some kinda "man of the people", but when the people actually get the power (via planitulsa) you start to worry about what they might do with it. One could easily question your sincerity, AA.  

quote:
I just want people to go into this process with their eyes wide open, prepared to guard against the pitfalls that have plagued other planning processes that Frego has undertaken.
You pulled that "article" off of some wackadoodle anti-planning website because it suited your aim, which I'm starting to suspect is to deny Tulsans a voice in their future.  I suspect that enlightenment has nothing to do with it.  Why?  Because you ain't no libertarian, anti-planning, anti-zoning, anarchist; you regularly rail against developers who do their "free market" thing over in your 'hood, Cherry Street.  And you advocate for more property restrictions.

Here's a thought.  Figure out where you stand and stand there.  Stop milling about...either you want this to work or you want it to go away.  This thing is either going to fail or succeed, but you can't play both sides of the net.





Typical. It still doesn't change the fact that Frego is known for his reputation for pushing higher densities where they are not wanted or supported. Perhaps that's why he was chosen.  

I want this to work for the people, not against them. To say that those who have critisms about this process only want it to fail is like saying those that criticized that fascism disguised philanthropy Ballpark Trust only wanted it to fail.

I can do whatever the hell I want, btw.

There is a very simple solution to quell the concerns those who have doubts about this, require a public vote to approve the final approval, adoption and implementation of this plan. It's clear that the public overwhelming does not trust our local government to act in the public's best interest according to PlaniTulsa's own polling data. Those who are reluctant to allow this are the ones with truly questionable motives.




You make no sense.  I don't think you've proved anything at all, except maybe how conflicted you really are.  What if the people at those workshops were the ones that showed denser neighborhoods?  What if the Tulsans show more density in your neighborhood at our workshops.  Does that make them wrong?

What's wrong with density anyway?  Doesn't that make for a more efficient city?  Lower taxes, etc?  You say you want this to work for the people, but what if the people choose something that doesn't tickle your fancy?  Who you gonna blame then?
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PonderInc
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« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2008, 10:51:34 am »

Wow, this is productive. I can't remember what the original thread was about...

Sorry I wasn't here to jump in sooner.  You know us PLANiTULSA citizen advisors/partners... always hiding down in our special PLANiTULSA bunker creating secret, elitist plans for the city's future in which we become rich landowners who will be hand-fed grapes and fanned with palm fronds by you common folk...after all this pesky "citizen input" stuff is over. [:O]  

Or, you might find us speaking to groups about how they can get involved in PLANiTULSA, or walking around handing out fliers, or organizing public forums to discuss PLANiTULSA, or encouraging TulsaNow to create an online space dedicated to this topic, or writing emails encouraging citizens to participate, etc, etc, etc.

Which is why there are currently over 750 Tulsans signed up to participate in PLANiTULSA's first workshops.  So many people signed up that there will be an overflow session of the "city-wide" workshop in addition to the 9 (or more) additional neighborhood workshops that will be coming soon.

All this, despite a handful of "disgrunts" best efforts to cast doubt on the process and the thousands of people who will be involved.
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