Tell us why Romney will be a great president.

[heironymouspasparagus]

If the guy was trading them in, he could push back any tax liability he may have incurred. But the day he sells one (does not trade it in) he will have to pay the piper. Course he may never sell one so...

Few business owners actually make any money on used cars.  They just minimize their loses with income offsets - deductions.

[Red Arrow]

Ironically, I started out as an engineering student, and then switched to finance/accounting. Why are business degrees so scary? 

Mostly because they are received by students that started out in engineering.   

[erfalf]

Mostly because they are received by students that started out in engineering.   

Alright, that may have been a tad below the belt.  jk

It was funny that when I went into the business office to do the paper work to transfer, they mentioned how many engineering students ended up there.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Ironically, I started out as an engineering student, and then switched to finance/accounting. Why are business degrees so scary?
 

Biggest problem with "MBA" types is that the schools teach the students that their carp doesn't stink... grave disservice to both the student AND society.  My daughter just got her MBA a while back and I had to vigorously remind her of that little fact.

And then they carry that carp into the workplace with them.  Case studies and present/future/past value of money evaluations are handy tools in business, but an extremely stupid way to determine policy, or derive product direction/development.  Refer to the entire career of Steve Jobs.  


As for all the business people dropping out of Engineering - well, I think many kids did pretty good in high school in math, were told that if they were good at math, engineering was the place to be.  What was left out completely from that discussion - since so few teachers are engineers - is that fact that it takes a particular inclination to self-abuse to go through engineering.  That's why there are so few of us.  Combine all the engineers and technician types in the country, plus the half million or so who have been driven out due to economic considerations by the MBA's - the engineers got too old - you only have about 3 million people.  Less than 1% of the population.  So, Red, Ed, and I and probably a few others are 1%er's of a different type.

And are you left handed??  A disproportionate amount of technical types (as well as artistic types) are left handed.  In the population of engineers I have worked with and known, it is about 35-40% rather than the 10% in the general population.

[Red Arrow]

As for all the business people dropping out of Engineering - well, I think many kids did pretty good in high school in math, were told that if they were good at math, engineering was the place to be.  What was left out completely from that discussion - since so few teachers are engineers - is that fact that it takes a particular inclination to self-abuse to go through engineering.  

I was fortunate to have reasonable expectations of what engineering school would be like.  My dad was a EE and was only about 12 credits from also being a ME. (His school didn't offer double degrees, at least at that time.)  One of dad's brothers was a EE and only about 10 years older than me so I saw some of his going through school. Another uncle (married my mom's sister) is a retired Chem E. He is pushing age 90 now.

Being good at math is a help but math is only a tool, like a wrench for a mechanic and (I believe) a brush for an artist.  I can move a paint brush with paint but the only thing I can paint is a wall and maybe a paint by the numbers if I try really hard.

And are you left handed??  A disproportionate amount of technical types (as well as artistic types) are left handed.  In the population of engineers I have worked with and known, it is about 35-40% rather than the 10% in the general population.

I'm left handed but my brother (also ME) and relatives above are/were all right handed.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I was fortunate to have reasonable expectations of what engineering school would be like.  My dad was a EE and was only about 12 credits from also being a ME. (His school didn't offer double degrees, at least at that time.)  One of dad's brothers was a EE and only about 10 years older than me so I saw some of his going through school. Another uncle (married my mom's sister) is a retired Chem E. He is pushing age 90 now.

Being good at math is a help but math is only a tool, like a wrench for a mechanic and (I believe) a brush for an artist.  I can move a paint brush with paint but the only thing I can paint is a wall and maybe a paint by the numbers if I try really hard.


I'm left handed but my brother (also ME) and relatives above are/were all right handed.

I got a count of 5.  1 out of 5 --- 20%.  Just in your family, double the national average.  We have two out of 4 siblings left handed in the family.

Pretty interesting little statistic, ain't it? 

Feels pretty good knowing we are the only ones in our right minds....

[erfalf]

Biggest problem with "MBA" types is that the schools teach the students that their carp doesn't stink... grave disservice to both the student AND society.  My daughter just got her MBA a while back and I had to vigorously remind her of that little fact.

And then they carry that carp into the workplace with them.  Case studies and present/future/past value of money evaluations are handy tools in business, but an extremely stupid way to determine policy, or derive product direction/development.  Refer to the entire career of Steve Jobs.  


As for all the business people dropping out of Engineering - well, I think many kids did pretty good in high school in math, were told that if they were good at math, engineering was the place to be.  What was left out completely from that discussion - since so few teachers are engineers - is that fact that it takes a particular inclination to self-abuse to go through engineering.  That's why there are so few of us.  Combine all the engineers and technician types in the country, plus the half million or so who have been driven out due to economic considerations by the MBA's - the engineers got too old - you only have about 3 million people.  Less than 1% of the population.  So, Red, Ed, and I and probably a few others are 1%er's of a different type.

And are you left handed??  A disproportionate amount of technical types (as well as artistic types) are left handed.  In the population of engineers I have worked with and known, it is about 35-40% rather than the 10% in the general population.

Was good in math & physics in high school. Seemed logical. But it just wasn't me. I did struggle with the Chemistry type courses, did alright in the math/physics courses. Just couldn't see myself doing it for a living. Finance was "flashier".

[heironymouspasparagus]

Was good in math & physics in high school. Seemed logical. But it just wasn't me. I did struggle with the Chemistry type courses, did alright in the math/physics courses. Just couldn't see myself doing it for a living. Finance was "flashier".

Pays better too.  Shared a facility with finance type who got laid off same time from local bank back in the 90's.  He found a job in just a few months, but said all along he wouldn't consider anything less than 250k (1994 dollars).  Got on at Arvest as some kind of VP.  I was always suspicious that engineering was the wrong direction..... 

[Red Arrow]

Pays better too.  Shared a facility with finance type who got laid off same time from local bank back in the 90's.  He found a job in just a few months, but said all along he wouldn't consider anything less than 250k (1994 dollars).  Got on at Arvest as some kind of VP.  I was always suspicious that engineering was the wrong direction..... 

I never expected to get really rich as an engineer working for someone else.  It has paid me a reasonable salary and I am not living from paycheck to paycheck.  It is unfortunate that you have had such bad luck financially as an engineer as you seem to claim on this forum.  I doubt I would have been happy as anything other than an engineer.  I thought in high school that I wanted to be an airline pilot but at the time they required 20/20 uncorrected vision.  I have always had a lazy right eye.  I still managed to pass the eye test without glasses for a Class III physical until my late 40s though.

[erfalf]

Pays better too.  Shared a facility with finance type who got laid off same time from local bank back in the 90's.  He found a job in just a few months, but said all along he wouldn't consider anything less than 250k (1994 dollars).  Got on at Arvest as some kind of VP.  I was always suspicious that engineering was the wrong direction..... 

Now I don't know this for a fact, and everyone's situation is different. But I would guess that initially (right out of college), engineers have the edge. But on average, I would guess that people in finance/accounting probably do better ON AVERAGE. That being said, I think engineers have a much larger potential. When I worked in Venture Capital, virtually all the MBA's working at these firms were formerly engineers. One of my bosses (Harvard MBA) was a chemist or chemical engineer. Most of the VC's are filled with engineers.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Now I don't know this for a fact, and everyone's situation is different. But I would guess that initially (right out of college), engineers have the edge. But on average, I would guess that people in finance/accounting probably do better ON AVERAGE. That being said, I think engineers have a much larger potential. When I worked in Venture Capital, virtually all the MBA's working at these firms were formerly engineers. One of my bosses (Harvard MBA) was a chemist or chemical engineer. Most of the VC's are filled with engineers.

Another engineer that got out - sold his soul to the dark side - and got rich in MBA stuff.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I never expected to get really rich as an engineer working for someone else.  It has paid me a reasonable salary and I am not living from paycheck to paycheck.  It is unfortunate that you have had such bad luck financially as an engineer as you seem to claim on this forum.  I doubt I would have been happy as anything other than an engineer.  I thought in high school that I wanted to be an airline pilot but at the time they required 20/20 uncorrected vision.  I have always had a lazy right eye.  I still managed to pass the eye test without glasses for a Class III physical until my late 40s though.

I didn't expect rich, either.  What I did expect was that if someone works hard for a company, makes a major contribution, rewards will follow.  Well, the reality was that the rewards flow all right, but not necessarily to the contributors (and that is not just the engineer, but all the other people in the company.) 

I am recovering.  Have a good company now that appreciates a meaningful contribution.  Amazing the difference that can make...and it is a big company, too...who woulda thought.  But the MBA types still do better in it.

I have had several opportunities to 'go for the money' - only two of which I regret not taking - but I would not have been doing work that I enjoy as much.  Part of that curse that Scott Adams calls "the knack".

[Hoss]

I didn't expect rich, either.  What I did expect was that if someone works hard for a company, makes a major contribution, rewards will follow.  Well, the reality was that the rewards flow all right, but not necessarily to the contributors (and that is not just the engineer, but all the other people in the company.)  

I am recovering.  Have a good company now that appreciates a meaningful contribution.  Amazing the difference that can make...and it is a big company, too...who woulda thought.  But the MBA types still do better in it.

I have had several opportunities to 'go for the money' - only two of which I regret not taking - but I would not have been doing work that I enjoy as much.  Part of that curse that Scott Adams calls "the knack".

My story:

I started at a company in 2003 as a CS representative for a local company that does background screenings.  Back then it was mainly for trucking companies and insurance companies.  Through hard work and perseverance I was able to move into a position that bettered myself in the company in May 2005.

Our group was a start-from-scratch group of Software Quality Assurance.  There were just three of us to begin with, but then the acquisitions started happening, and our group grew to seven.  None of us really knew about QA work for software nor did we know what the market average wage was for what we did.

Then, the last acquisition happened in 2008, which essentially flip-flopped us (IOW, we began asking ourselves, 'who bought who', because we were adopting policies and procedures of the acquired company).  The VC/PE firm swooped in (initially it was the Carlyle Group, then Providence which is the current group owning the company now) and started making changes.  Not changes based on performance or merit, but changes based on 'how much front end liablity can we ditch..i.e., workers with tenure and higher salaries'.

We went from a company who hadn't laid off anyone in 10 years, to one who now was RIFing people every quarter (and sometimes even more frequently) at an alarming rate.  Company restructuring had our location wondering if we even had a future as part of the company.  I personally witnessed employees with tenures of 15 to 20 years being let go due to (IMHO although the company would never admit it) their higher salariies.  Never mind the knowledge of the business these people had.

My boss got caught up in one of these around the blizzard of 2011; then we started dropping like flies.  Either by attrition or other means.  We were realigned with a QA group based out of Nashville, but had no local leadership to represent us.  So essentially, we were on our own as far as having a voice in the pecking order.  That was around February of 2011.

That was also when I began quietly searching for other work.

I survived the next five (yes five) reductions in force.  The final one was on my birthday of this year, when I saw a colleague who had worked there for nearly two decades get terminated because he was the highest paid in his department.

A long time member of our team took a position elsewhere after getting nowhere on a counterproposal after submitting his two-week notice that might have kept him there and given myself and the rest of my department a substantial increase in pay to what our positions merited in this market.  We were currently making anywhere from 25 to 40 percent less than what the market norm was for our industry.

I took a two week vacation in July after getting a lead from my former boss on a position at his company (a very well-known local electronic and print-media publishing company) at a rate of about 55 percent more than my current salary (which was actually more in line with the market norm -- my previous company kept blowing smoke up our hind ends for months that they had done a market survey of our salaries and promised us increases for six months with nothing done).  The day I got back from vacation I got my interview during my lunch hour.  I got my offer sheet the next morning and later that afternoon tendered what was to be a better than two week notice.

That reduced the number in my team (locally) to two.  There are two others in Nashville doing the same thing, but the type of work we do doesn't work well with distance involved.  We got by at the time, but now the local office has two QA Analysts.

Come to find out that me leaving was evidently the straw that broke the camel's back.  Upper management gave about a 45 percent raise to my former co-workers.  Instead of giving it to them over quarters (as they had said initially they were going to do) and not starting them until October, they gave it to them immediately in full after I inferred during my exit interview that the likelihood of both of them leaving was about 90 percent if nothing was done.

I'm in a much better place now, in a company run by a sole proprietorship, and in a place where I feel comfortable and wanted.  And not just some cog in the machine.

I sent my former director a letter the day I left.  In it I told him, after he noted I was a 'valuable part of the company', to remember to tell his people that remained that from time to time.  Sometimes it's not JUST about the money.

So...when you see me lament about PE and VC groups and how they treat people?  This is why...

[Red Arrow]

I didn't expect rich, either.  What I did expect was that if someone works hard for a company, makes a major contribution, rewards will follow.  Well, the reality was that the rewards flow all right, but not necessarily to the contributors (and that is not just the engineer, but all the other people in the company.) 

You may have been able to get more short term rewards by being a contract engineer rather than being a regular full time employee.  Of course the down side to being a contract engineer is that you are the first to go when business gets slow or the project is finished.

Have a good company now that appreciates a meaningful contribution.  Amazing the difference that can make...and it is a big company, too...who woulda thought.  But the MBA types still do better in it.

Some companies have a technical track to good pay.  One of my college friends (Mechanical Engineer) spent part of his career managing a bunch of scientists that he had to pay more than he got paid.  Most places do not appear to have a technical track to high pay though.

I have had a few opportunities to move toward management but I have always been more valuable as a technical contributor.

[heironymouspasparagus]

You may have been able to get more short term rewards by being a contract engineer rather than being a regular full time employee.  Of course the down side to being a contract engineer is that you are the first to go when business gets slow or the project is finished.

Some companies have a technical track to good pay.  One of my college friends (Mechanical Engineer) spent part of his career managing a bunch of scientists that he had to pay more than he got paid.  Most places do not appear to have a technical track to high pay though.

I have had a few opportunities to move toward management but I have always been more valuable as a technical contributor.

Have done contract work off and on since 1990.  Need any electronic/electrical work done?  The big issue is one of my self-aware recognitions that I am not a great sales type.  You have to be selling ALL the time.  Probably 20% of time to be successful at it.

Have been engineering manager a couple of times.  Takes me too far away from the fun part.