Jay's Original Hoagies

[Gaspar]

I will get packaged meats from Whole Paycheck since they don't have preservatives or "pink salt".  I've read too many pieces on all the detrimental affects of consuming nitrites, nitrates, and all the other fat and flavor preservatives that cannot be pronounced by anyone but an Oscar Mayer chemist.  Of course, that still doesn't account for all the carcinogens in smoked meat, but I can't seem to live without smoked meats.

When I want some pork accent in a meal, I keep a frozen slab of bacon in the freezer and slice off the end of it.  To be honest, I can't tell one iota of flavor difference between cured and uncured bacon.

I hate to do this to you, but you are still getting a healthy dose of nitrites and nitrates. I can go over the chemistry with you but it will only make you sad.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Hey, not all the good food comes from south of the Mason-Dixon line.

Yes it does.


But then there IS that Gold Star Chili thing.... and White Castle.  And New Jersey, Mass, Conn, New York pizza!

[Red Arrow]

Yes it does.
But then there IS that Gold Star Chili thing.... and White Castle.  And New Jersey, Mass, Conn, New York pizza!

Please refresh your geography lessons.  Or maybe you didn't learn about anything east of the Mississippi River in Oklahoma schools.

http://www.google.com/search?q=mason-dixon+line&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=ScEFT5uUFory0gGsuPTJAg&sqi=2&ved=0CDsQsAQ&biw=1418&bih=730

[heironymouspasparagus]

Please refresh your geography lessons.  Or maybe you didn't learn about anything east of the Mississippi River in Oklahoma schools.

http://www.google.com/search?q=mason-dixon+line&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=ScEFT5uUFory0gGsuPTJAg&sqi=2&ved=0CDsQsAQ&biw=1418&bih=730

I know about the Mason-Dixon line.  I was pointing out some exceptions to the rule that all good food comes from south of same...rule still holds, just that there are exceptions to every rule.

[Gaspar]

I will get packaged meats from Whole Paycheck since they don't have preservatives or "pink salt".  I've read too many pieces on all the detrimental affects of consuming nitrites, nitrates, and all the other fat and flavor preservatives that cannot be pronounced by anyone but an Oscar Mayer chemist.  Of course, that still doesn't account for all the carcinogens in smoked meat, but I can't seem to live without smoked meats.

When I want some pork accent in a meal, I keep a frozen slab of bacon in the freezer and slice off the end of it.  To be honest, I can't tell one iota of flavor difference between cured and uncured bacon.

Ok, I can't leave that unanswered, sorry man!

First of all, I'm sure you are already aware, Nitrates and Nitrites are not the enemy, Nitrosamines are.  They are typically produced when Nitrates and Nitrites are exposed to heat, stomach acid, or any host of enzymes.  Those tasty little grill marks are full of Nitrosamines!

Many people have taken up a reduction or perceived elimination of Nitrate and Nitrite from their diet for what they believe are healthy alternatives.  Many experience positive results from this change in diet, but most of the time the reduction in Nitrate and Nitrite have little to do with it, or in the case of vegetarians, actually the opposite effect.  You will see healthy benefits anytime you move from a standard American diet to one with lower sodium.

While Nitrosamines have not been proven to cause any health problems, they are considered a carcinogen, and have been for decades.   About 40 years ago, the FDA learned that by adding a very small amount of vitamin C (ascorbic acid) or vitamin E (alpha-tocopherol) to meat cures would inhibit the formation of most of the Nitrosamines in cooking.  The result was legislation that requires the meat industry to add vitamins C and E to all Nitrate cures.  So as it stands today, food treated with commercial "pink salt" actually produces less Nitrosamine than food treated with Sea Salt or Celery Salt (very high in natural Nitrates).  What this means is that you probably get more Nitrosamine from your "uncured" bacon than you do from good old Oscar Myer, unless the label specifically states that Ascorbic acid is added.

The Health food industry uses this lack of understanding to their advantage by advertising "uncured" meats as healthy.  They are neither "uncured" or healthier. 

The FDA requires that all preserved meat either be cured with an accepted commercial cure, or an accepted "natural" cure.  Either way, the nitrate must be present at the same level to stop the growth of Clostridium Botulinum.  That's the little critter that excretes Botulism toxin and still kills thousands of people around the world every year.  So, what does the "uncured" industry use?  Celery salt, sea salt, and radish extract. . .all of these contain high levels of Nitrate and Nitrite.

Here is your obstacle if you want to reduce Nitrates and Nitrites from your diet.  You will be relegated to eating cabbage, corn, and tomatoes. You will also want to stay away from drinking tap water and cooking anything.  You would want to eat only light colored vegetables and fruit (except for bananas), and you would probably die very soon.

Why?

Nitrates and Nitrites are naturally occurring compounds that are created when plants break down nitrogen during photosynthesis.  We boost the amount of Nitrates in our veggies by using commercial or natural high Nitrogen fertilizers in conventional and organic farming.  The healthier the crop, the more Nitrate and Nitrite.

Even if you are a big preserved meat eater like myself, only a very small amount of Nitrates and the resulting Nitrosamines come from meat (about 5% - 10% on average).  The majority comes from fresh green vegetables.

Michigan State University says the average American consumes 75 to 100mg of nitrates per day. About 80 to 90 percent of it comes from vegetables. This is amazing when you consider the fact that most Americans eat very few vegetables! 

So what about vegetarians?  The study also shows that vegetarians can consume up to 250mg of nitrates per day.  That's about 2 – 3 times what the FDA reccomends.

Cardiologists in many cases have to warn patients considering a vegetarian diet about the increase in Nitrate intake, as that it causes a drop in blood pressure associated with the production of Nitric Oxide in the blood.  Patients that suffer from lung disease or easily become hypoxic, can exacerbate their symptoms by going veggie.  The increase in Nitrate also causes the "Viagra effect" if you know what I mean.

Many vegetarians toute the fact that by eliminating meat from their diet they have been able to lower their blood pressure, and feel better.  This is not from the elimination of meat from the diet, it is from the increase in Nitrate and Nitrite intake, and the decrease in total sodium.

Many people have come to understand the relationship between plants, nitrates, and diet, so the health food industry has started to downplay the role of Nitrates in general, and focus on the role of "heavy metal content" in commercial meat cures.  Unfortunately this is another red herring, because again we take in far more arsenic, lead, selenium, and even radioactive Strontium and Cesium in our veggies and grains than in our cured meats.

The healthiest diet is one that you don't have to worry about.  Eat like a cave-man, stay away from processed carbohydrates and sugars. Whole grains are better than milled products because your body absorbs less.  If you are fat, eat less, and replace carbohydrate with lean protein and vegetables. 

If you realize a health benefit from eliminating cured meats from your diet, be aware that it is not the reduction in nitrate, but most likely the reduction in sodium.  If you are replacing meats with vegetables, you are likely increasing your Nitrate/Nitrite intake significantly.  If you are encountering more "Cialis" moments, it is most likely because you are increasing your Nitrate and Nitrite intake by eating more healthy veggies, and less total salt.

There is no research to indicate that anyone has gotten cancer or died from natural or commercial meat cures, however millions have died from their absence, and continue to die every year from improper preservation of food.

I'm not a bit Nitrate/Nitrite in meat fan because people use it to cheat the smoking process in BBQ competitions, and in restaurants to make a sub-par product look better.  Otherwise I'm fine with a Oscar Myer ham sandwich. 

[Conan71]

You are a regular Alton Brown, Gaspar  

Thanks for the explanation.  I'll have to forward that to FMC, it's a good read and you make good points.  I'm aware that celery juice and other "natural" forms of nitrites are used but had no idea of the nitrite and nitrate content of most veggies.

Where did the notion that nitrosamines were a food-borne carcinogen in the first place?

I first became aware of nitrosamines when I worked in the chemical business.  In steam boiler chemicals, various volatile amines like morpholine, cylclohexamine, and DEHA are used to neutralize steam-borne carbon dioxide as it condenses into carbonic acid as steam cools and condenses back to water.  You never wanted any cross contamination with sodium nitrite compounds we used for metal pacification in closed loop heating or cooling systems as it would create nitrosamines.  If it was inhaled, it could be toxic and was viewed as a carcinogen.

At some level it's always bothered me to eat food with a compound in it that I had used for metal pacification.  Go figure.

[Gaspar]

You are a regular Alton Brown, Gaspar  

Thanks for the explanation.  I'll have to forward that to FMC, it's a good read and you make good points.  I'm aware that celery juice and other "natural" forms of nitrites are used but had no idea of the nitrite and nitrate content of most veggies.

Where did the notion that nitrosamines were a food-borne carcinogen in the first place?

I first became aware of nitrosamines when I worked in the chemical business.  In steam boiler chemicals, various volatile amines like morpholine, cylclohexamine, and DEHA are used to neutralize steam-borne carbon dioxide as it condenses into carbonic acid as steam cools and condenses back to water.  You never wanted any cross contamination with sodium nitrite compounds we used for metal pacification in closed loop heating or cooling systems as it would create nitrosamines.  If it was inhaled, it could be toxic and was viewed as a carcinogen.

At some level it's always bothered me to eat food with a compound in it that I had used for metal pacification.  Go figure.

It's really unknown how nitrosamines affect people when ingested.  All scientists really know is that when you swab exposed tissue on a rat with concentrated nitrosamines for months, the rat gets cancer.  There is no evidence to support cancer in humans caused by nitrosamine ingestion.  It would be a hard study to conduct due to the fact that almost everything we eat develops a concentration of nitrosamine when it comes in contact with stomach acid.

I would never participate in such a study because I would have to eliminate Marshall's from my diet (beer is very high in nitrosamine).

[Conan71]

It's really unknown how nitrosamines affect people when ingested.  All scientists really know is that when you swab exposed tissue on a rat with concentrated nitrosamines for months, the rat gets cancer.  There is no evidence to support cancer in humans caused by nitrosamine ingestion.  It would be a hard study to conduct due to the fact that almost everything we eat develops a concentration of nitrosamine when it comes in contact with stomach acid.

I would never participate in such a study because I would have to eliminate Marshall's from my diet (beer is very high in nitrosamine).

Well damn, you just let a few pounds of air out of my food snobbery.  I wonder if my neighbor would give me back the Cusack ham I re-gifted to him for Christmas now that you have alleviated fears about nitrites and nitrates?  Nearly a 20 pound hog leg. 

[Gaspar]

Well damn, you just let a few pounds of air out of my food snobbery.  I wonder if my neighbor would give me back the Cusack ham I re-gifted to him for Christmas now that you have alleviated fears about nitrites and nitrates?  Nearly a 20 pound hog leg. 

I have come to the conclusion that cotton swabs cause cancer in laboratory animals!

[Conan71]

I have come to the conclusion that cotton swabs cause cancer in laboratory animals!

I thought it was lab coats.

[dbacks fan]

I thought it was lab coats.

I thought lab rats caused cancer in humans.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I read a notice from the FDA that said saliva causes cancer.  But only when swallowed in very small amounts over a long period of time.

[Gaspar]

The number one killer of humans is still death.  That's why I make a separate donation to the Human Fund every year in the name of each member of the TNF.

Some day they will find a cure, but until then I still wear my ribbon.

[Red Arrow]

Back to Jay's...

I stopped in yesterday and got his Italian Hoagie but minus the pickle and sweet peppers and vinegar. Olive oil was the only dressing.  It was excellent but I would still like to try one with Proscuitto in place of the regular ham.  The 6" size was stuffed and almost more than I could finish for lunch. $4.95 plus tax for the hoagie.  I didn't get chips or a drink as it was "to go".

[BKDotCom]

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