The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/city-to-unveil-arena-district-master-plan-could-a-park/article_1e1dadaf-2bda-5f8e-a28e-34cda84ac003.html (https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/city-to-unveil-arena-district-master-plan-could-a-park/article_1e1dadaf-2bda-5f8e-a28e-34cda84ac003.html)

New Arena District Master Plan to be announced tonight.

The plan is ridiculous.

It calls for buying back and tearing down the five year old aLoft hotel in the old city hall. It also calls for the re-closing of 5th Street in front of the library, you know, the street the city just rebuilt and reopened? And last, it calls for tearing down the police courts building and the city jail that the city just reopened.

Seriously?  The city paid for this nonsense?

I believe that was the draft plan. Hopefully the city will announce tonight something that represents some changes from that plan. Also it does reflect a 20 year plan so if those potentially objectionable items are among the final portions of the plan completed they wouldn't be so new.

I can see tearing down the police building, especially in the long term, for an expanded convention center/convention hotel.  But even over 20 years the extreme expense it would take to buy the aLoft to tear it down for a little park space and a non specific "multi-use" project makes no sense. These plans need to deal with reality and that isn't realistic.

But the worst the is park/plaza area in the place of 5th Street. Because we tried that for 50 years in that exact place in front of those exact buildings and it was a complete failure for the entire 50 years. It looks nice in drawings, filled with people eating ice cream. It won't work. It hasn't worked. We need to restore the street grid as possible, not remove streets for main mall style promenades. They don't work.

Is the Cox Center doing that many bookings to justify an expansion as well as wiping out a hotel?  Seems like if there is still a shortage of hotel rooms, you simply build another to compliment what is already in place considering the A-Loft isn't a dilapidated relic from 50 years ago.

The report states that there could be two options for a convention center hotel.  One is the police courts building site on 6th, the other is the Page Belcher site on 3rd.  I've always thought if and when we need another hotel by the convention center that the Page Belcher site would be the logical place to put it as it sits between the convention center and BOK Center and helps to activate 3rd as a link to the rest of downtown.  The article mentions the GSA lease expires in 2024 so nothing would likely happen until then, which is about when we would probably need another hotel there anyway.  

I prefer this plan for Page Belcher from a previous version with a convention hotel on the west end and mixed-use on the east with a park/plaza fronting Denver:
(http://kotv.images.worldnow.com/images/17992436_G.jpg)

The Cox Business Center is being renovated with the old arena being converted to ballroom/event space.  However, with OKC building a new convention center, it is likely the Cox will need further expansion in the near future.  But tearing down the aLoft and other buildings makes no sense, with the exception being the Page Belcher building - but that involves a lot of hurdles like approving, funding and building a new federal courthouse.  There are still two surface parking lots directly across from the BOK Center, how about we start there with some development before tearing down existing buildings.

I believe the new OKC convention center will have about 100,000 sf more space than what we have today. If we need more convention space to compete with that and other cities, what about going "underground"? By underground I mean in the space of the parking level (that is actually ground level) under the civic center plaza today? That's an existing space that goes all the way to Denver under 5th Street and under the city police building. Enclose that area and convert it to convention space. it's already linked to the convention center. Run 5th Street and the convention center drive over the space. 5th is already elevated there to the aLoft.

I doubt the a-loft goes but I can see the police building going away. It's hideous and the jail expansion wasn't super extensive. I think the county is moving across the street to the old Community Care building. It's a big building that can probably handle the municipal courts too.

I would really like to see the Page Belcher site redeveloped, but I don't see it happening for decades, if ever. We've supposedly been on a replacement list for decades already. I'd be curious where the federal courts would move. I'd love to see expansion of the federal building, where the bankruptcy courts are currently, but space looks limited.

There hasn’t been the political will to replace Page Belcher until now when that real estate is now much more valuable.  I imagine it gets replaced once the GSA lease expires but agree it will probably be another decade before we see its replacement built and the existing building demolished.  Maybe at that point we will need a high rise convention hotel that can go on that site.

As for future convention center expansion why not demo the civic center garage and build the addition there?  A replacement garage could be built at 3rd & Houston or in another location.  Then the convention center is entirely contained within its existing footprint with a convention hotel directly between it and the BOK Center.

I had the exact same question.  Expanding the convention center in the current garage space seems like a better solution in many ways.

Urge Tulsa voters to get on board with the new arena district master plan, the competition from cities like Fort Worth, Oklahoma City, Nashville and Kansas City will be fierce--they possess 600-750 guest rooms.  Think big, don't settle from the lower end 400 room hotel; you will need at least 600 rooms.  

GSA Lease?  


Any updates on this master plan and its implementation?

This older story explains the issue:

https://tulsaworld.com/news/a-big-development-problem-in-the-middle-of-downtown-why-the-federal-building-might-stay/article_a8a0a2fd-1035-5a13-bea3-d0fe3814acf7.html

Thanks

Related to the Arena District Master Plan:

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/city-begins-planning-for-new-public-safety-complex/article_85f9ce4e-9c93-11eb-937f-b3374e43e778.html#tracking-source=home-top-story

Typical City of Tulsa story:  We didn't maintain this building, so now we need a new one.

I think it's a pretty done deal at this point that the city is going to buy the old State Farm building, unless there's some sort of public backlash against it. That particular building next to the convention center makes so much more sense as a site of a convention center hotel. Especially given the Page Belcher Federal building won't be replaced anytime soon most likely, unfortunately.

The odd part is creating a 60 cell jail as well in the State Farm building. I've heard that GKFF wants to see the county jail downtown moved at some point too, so maybe this is part of a larger effort behind the scenes to ultimately get to that point. I wonder how this will impact splitting the municipal courts/city jail and the county courthouse/county jail to opposite sides of the city and having the police center not near the county jail either. The county courthouse needs to be replaced too sooner or later, it's way too small - I could see it being converted to a smaller hotel (similar to Aloft renovation to the old city hall). You'd have a pretty strong cluster of hotels around the convention center at that point. Just need some entertainment stuff closer by to win more events. Right now that part of downtown feels like a silo still and could use some more evening type of retail/uses to create a better connection to Blue Dome and Arts District. Right now if you want to grab lunch or an early afternoon drink from the convention center you've got a pretty good walk ahead of you to get anywhere with a decent cluster of options.

In the long run I think this will be beneficial to the city to move, rather than them putting lipstick on these buildings and keeping the entire area around the convention center as a civic cluster - there's probably a better space for it given the size and age of these buildings being fairly obsolete at this point and just allow this area to turn more into a entertainment district around the arena/convention center.


I do wonder why that transaction never happened (buying it for $10 million and leasing it back for a few years) - there's a large chunk of space in this building that's just sat vacant for years. I'm really shocked the postal service wants to hold on to this building. Seems like a land swap or something would entice the postal service to move into a more modern facility that is right sized - then build a new federal building for the courts. Maybe when the county courthouse is up for replacement they could just build a single federal/county courthouse somewhere. Not sure if I've seen any city do that, usually the federal courts are off by themselves.

It seems like this move would certainly be in line with what they proposed in the Master Plan which shows a convention hotel replacing the police building.  I find it odd they show replacing the Aloft/Old City Hall, it seems like it would make sense to keep that as a hotel?  

(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/594a7ef737c5813e5d8a8f8d/1553868556599-7GQCRC2J3KESST64BCCK/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kE1G8aDDySyXafgMqMi-3Wt7gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLfrh8O1z4YTzHvnKhyp6Da-NYroOW3ZGjoBKy3azqku80C789l0k5fwC0WRNFJBIXiBeNI5fIBAe0aRMxRrpn6J5i2IfAjEZwkdJGvTULFlkLSJhK3Nw/06+-+Catalytic+Change+-+Copy+-+Copy.jpg?format=1500w)

I really like this plan for a new park space fronting Denver between 3rd and 4th with mixed-use development replacing the Federal Building.  If the Federal Building is goes away though where does its replacement get built?  
(https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/f/59/f594fac7-fe90-580b-9514-c31ec50870a1/5baaa6e53366b.image.jpg?resize=1200%2C776)

 Any updates to the purchase of the Page Belcher Federal Building?

Likely isn't happening for a long time. I think for a little bit there was hope Inhofe would be able to get money for a new one and then they would name it after him but I think that time has passed.

The city is fully focused on the Family Safety Center or whatever that is called between the courthouse and the convention center. That is where the expansion + full service hotel is noted in the renderings. Frankly, I could see a new county courthouse built probably before a new federal building is and then you could turn the old courthouse into something similar to the Aloft conversion. The county courthouse is going to need to be replaced in the next 10-20 years, it's been pretty small and outdated for the last 10-15 years already. I could see that being in a future Vision package.

Frankly, what the city should do is get rid of the tenants in the City Hall building and then move the Post Office and Courtrooms in the federal building into the City Hall building and essentially do a land swap. Say we'll give you floors X, X, X, and X in exchange for the Page Belcher site. I don't think City Hall is built to federal standards though, but also not sure if that only applies to new construction or not. Obviously Page Belcher isn't to the post OKC building standards either.

The McGirt decision may revive some momentum to replace the Page Belcher building (the US Supreme Court held that the Indian reservations covering most of the eastern half of Oklahoma were not disestablished at statehood and still exist).  The McGirt decision has resulted in a huge increase in caseloads in the federal courts in the Northern and Eastern Districts.  Recently, the court system recommended adding up to five judges just in Tulsa.  While that total number may not happen, it seems realistic that some new judges will be added and there is not space for them in Page Belcher.  Adding judges requires federal legislation, so it could be paired with funding for a new courthouse.

I think it was 2 judges for Tulsa, and 3 for Muscogee. Tulsa has added at least one magistrate and probably will get a few more. Your point stands though, I'm for anything that gets us a decent replacement. I'd kind of like to see the old federal building (current bankruptcy court) expanded to house the entire federal judiciary and related entities which are kind of spread around downtown currently. I assume it can't be built upwards and would present a lot of historic preservation issues.

With IOT3 passing and the police/courts moving to a new location (hopefully the dairy plant at Cameron & Denver) there is now discussion starting around building a 650 room convention hotel on that site which would be complete by 2026.  What could be really interesting is if the County decides to build a new courthouse which would free up the two-block area for both an enlarged convention center and highrise hotel.  

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/government-politics/city-leaders-moving-forward-with-plans-to-build-a-convention-hotel-downtown/article_2384957a-406d-11ee-a2a4-3be47a5415f6.html#tracking-source=home-top-story (https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/government-politics/city-leaders-moving-forward-with-plans-to-build-a-convention-hotel-downtown/article_2384957a-406d-11ee-a2a4-3be47a5415f6.html#tracking-source=home-top-story)

(https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/3/0c/30cd6026-e93f-5b12-beec-b4d9b3d22bda/64e9a6833449a.image.jpg?resize=714%2C500)

A 650 room DT hotel would be impressive for Tulsa.  Something exceeding 25 floors. add more to an already awesome skyline.

Let's assume the Police/Fire HQ moves to the Hiland Dairy.  Where do they move the County Courthouse?  

I don't see any reason they couldn't be part of the same complex, or have both buildings within that footprint. One of the proposals I saw was that the existing courthouse would remain for civil cases and a criminal courthouse would be built near David L. Moss. Several large cities have a similar setup for their state courts. Never thought that the state courthouse would be replaced before federal, but here we are.

          (https://405magazine-com-images.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/OKCCC.jpg)

     Oklahoma City spent $288 million on its new convention center:  
  
          ·   Exhibit hall is 200,730 continuous sq. ft on ground level
          ·  The space is divisible into 4 halls with 4 roll up garage doors and 2 ramps that have truck access onto the exhibit floor
          ·  Column spacing in the Exhibit Halls are 86’ between each columns, 30′ ceiling
          ·  Fully equipped floor boxes for electrical, communications, data, and plumbing needs
          · 4  permanent concessions stands

                      (https://i.ytimg.com/vi/j9nOir8agHA/hqdefault.jpg)

     Omni Oklahoma City 17 floors Luxury Hotel construction costs $235 million ($150 million by Omni, an $85.4 million subsidy by Oklahoma City)
     for 605 rooms.  Oklahoma City has 4,150 downtown hotel rooms.


     Best of luck on your 650 room luxury hotel.
    
          

I thought about this, but does Tulsa need a second 100,000 square foot exhibition hall? The site of the Police Courts building would make perfect sense for a second hall. Tulsa currently has the 100k sq ft hall and 20k, 30k and 40k sq ft ballrooms. A second 100k hall on this site would better match OKC and other cities with centers with more floor space. For example, Laramie posted OKC's new convention center which has a 200k hall and a 30k ballroom.

My question is, how much use does that extra 100k space get used? And if there is a market out there, aren't shows that need that much more space in Tulsa already covered by the Expo Building? I know it's not as nice as the convention center, but for sheer size few convention centers anywhere can match the Expo Building with its 450,000 square feet, 350,000 of it clearspan space. How many potential shows are there out there for Tulsa that need more than 100k but are unwilling to use the Expo? Do those shows make sense for the couple of hundred million dollars a second hall would cost?

I would think the ROI would be there for another 100k SF exhibit hall along with more meetings rooms.  And there is nowhere else to go unless you demolish the Civic Center Garage. 

The article stated this is where the Cox Business Center is deficient:

I think it's important for walkability to have the hotel front Denver Ave

City of Tulsa buys the former State Farm complex for a new Fire/Police headquarters:

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/government-politics/city-of-tulsa-agrees-to-25-5m-purchase-of-former-state-farm-corporate-hq/article_971aecfc-7ced-11ee-9804-47a80a1565e4.html#tracking-source=mp-homepage

I was hoping they would buy the Hiland Dairy but it isn't anywhere close to the same size (136k SF vs 305k SF).  That likely would've required building another new building next to it. 

My guess is that the county will build a new courthouse south of 6th opening up that entire two block area for development of a convention hotel. 

The city signed a nonbinding letter of intent in March to purchase a building to house a new public safety center but never shared that information with voters before asking them in August to approve millions of dollars to pay for such a facility.
https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/government-politics/months-before-public-vote-city-signed-nonbinding-letter-of-intent-to-purchase-public-safety-center/article_d94a630a-7e69-11ee-9c9d-c33d0d2bd38b.html

Naming the new police and fire headquarters building "Wyatt Tate Brady building" would make a lot of sense because it is not in the north Tulsa's black community.

This building was discussed a long time ago. I guess I had assumed that it was what they intended to purchase once the vote passed.