The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

Thanks to the V2025 EXT voters, BMX plans to move in at former Drillers Stadium.
Wonder what happens to the Tulsa Athletics?


http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/usa-bmx-moving-headquarters-to-tulsa/article_9a31bd8f-a016-5b8e-80a0-49297a65a892.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/usa-bmx-moving-headquarters-to-tulsa/article_9a31bd8f-a016-5b8e-80a0-49297a65a892.html)

By PAIGHTEN HARKINS World Staff Writer  |  5 comments 

The American Bicycle Association and USA BMX officially announced their move to Tulsa on Wednesday, a day after voters approved $15 million in funding for a new BMX stadium and headquarters.
 
The move is projected to bring more than 50 jobs and $10 million in additional economic impact each year to the Tulsa area, according to a joint news release from the Tulsa Sports Commission and USA BMX.

This is great they announced this so quickly! Had they not moved to Tulsa, obviously that would've been a huge disappointment and hopefully that was written in as a requirement for it to be built.

This could really help Tulsa achieve prominence in the bicycling community. It will also be good for the fairgrounds along with the other new Vision improvements to be made there. It will be good for businesses around there and keep more fair-centric events going in between the really big ones. With the fair, chili bowl, Safari Joe taking over Big Splash, Expo events, Arabian Horse Nationals, horse racing and all the other livestock events, the fairgrounds are really becoming a booming place!

I am concerned about what will happen to the Tulsa Athletics. Could they play at TU? (small stands though)

Another significant side benefit to all of this is that many construction jobs will be created which will help alleviate job losses by oil field workers (There is quite a bit of overlap in guys who were roughnecks and have worked in construction).

This makes me feel better about the situation with where the Tulsa Athletics soccer club will play:

There will be an open forum about this April 13:
https://twitter.com/TTownSoccer/status/717834376742969345

The stadium was too big for the Athletics anyway.  I enjoy the game but it's sad sometimes to see 1000 people in a 10,000 seat stadium. 

What are the plans for Mohawk Park out of Visions?  I saw a presentation that they are going to rework some parking and fields to draw larger tournaments.  I wonder if there would be funds to install 2000-2000 seats on a field for the Athletics?  Something like Swopes Park in Kansas City.  A soccer complex with it's own semi-pro club. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swope_Soccer_Village
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swope_Park_Rangers

For that you could play at Union Stadium or LaFortune Stadium. 

With the new Roughnecks now playing at OneOk, I honestly don’t see anyone but the most hardcore Athletics fan going out of their way to go see them play at Mohawk Park.  And even that would get old after awhile.

The TU soccer stadium holds 2,000. If the Athletics typically bring out 1,000-2,000, they should absolutely try to work out a deal with TU. For big games or playoffs, TU has additional stands they can set up for more capacity.

I am guessing parking would be a trick along with arranging TU matches and maybe practices (Well, TU has a soccer practice field down the street). The location would be perfect for the Athletics. It would be some more revenue for TU who just cut men's golf.

http://tulsahurricane.com/news/2015/6/5/POM_0605153052.aspx?path=msoc (http://tulsahurricane.com/news/2015/6/5/POM_0605153052.aspx?path=msoc)

Would alcohol sales be a problem if they played at a high school or TU stadium?  About 75% of my enjoyment of Roughnecks and A's games is drinking a cold beer during the match.  I suspect it's also a very large part of the revenues.

My thoughts exactly.

As anyone who grew up watching the Roughnecks at Skelly Stadium knows, it's actually a decent soccer venue.  At least, I prefer it to watching soccer on a baseball field.  TU has ample parking scattered all over the campus... and hey, maybe soon we'll have Bus Rapid Transit on 11th street running at 15 minute intervals until 10:00 PM...

Back to original thread: I'm excited about BMX coming to Tulsa.  Anything that brings more cyclists to Tulsa is good for the city.  Criterion racers, mountain bikers, BMX competitors, commuters, bar-hopping cruisers... Bring it!  And it's especially good when the city starts equating cycling with jobs and the economic bottom line.

A decade ago, a few of us would advocate for bike lanes and one or two guys like Paul Tay would show up and say "cyclists don't want bike lanes" and that would end the discussion.  Having a larger, more diverse cycling community has really helped push the discussion.  Tulsa Tough has been transformative.  Local cycling advocates have really stepped up.  And people who have spent time in other cities where cycling infrastructure has already been built understand the benefits.  We're a decade or two late to the game, but I'm excited for Tulsa's growing reputation as a cycling city.

It was Paul and some other avid cyclist that said it. Anyhow, we for sure need bike lanes on every main road in Tulsa and soccer being played in a non-baseball stadium. Only $3M was given to GoPlan but hopefully that gets the ball rolling on bike lanes.

Didn't the renovations at Chapman Stadium narrow the sidelines?  Also, the stadium is way too big for the A's.  The school's soccer stadium is better capacity.

No. The renovations did not narrow the sidelines, the original stone walls remain in place (they did cover them with a new stone facade. So technically maybe they narrowed by 4" or something). They were very narrow to start with and I love it (row 25 is closer at Skelly than row 1 at many SEC stadiums). A regulation soccer field does not fit, but I do not believe the Driller's Stadium fit a regulation field either.

I'm just glad they didn't use the BMX HQ as a bait-and-switch to ultimately flatten the stadium for more surface parking.

FWIW, the new expansion team in the Tulsa Athletics' division playing in Little Rock will be hosting home games at War Memorial Stadium.
They drew about 2,000 fans in a recent home exhibition game against another new team from Memphis.
http://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2016/apr/23/lr-rangers-make-opener-successful-20160/#comments

Meanwhile, in the USL... http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2016/04/27/fc-cincys-deal-uc-more-nippert-changes/83597078/

***BUMP***

Is this still happening?
I'm hearing conflicting stories.
What happens to that $13+ mil in county tax dollars?

City tax dollars.

I haven't heard that it is off...

Here is the article from April of 2016, officially announcing the move.  The CEO and all the officers appear to still be in place.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/usa-bmx-moving-headquarters-to-tulsa/article_9a31bd8f-a016-5b8e-80a0-49297a65a892.html

Here is an article from March 13, 2017, they quote people involved with and another who works for BMX.  Both seem excited about the move and don't mention it is off.
http://www.pryordailytimes.com/news/bmx-headquarters-moves-to-tulsa-mayes-county-sees-fringe-benefits/article_17c7b968-07ff-11e7-9b10-3fe5ebd45355.html

If you drive by the old Driller's stadium, it is being disassembled.  The stadium itself is pretty much down to the bones (seats gone, cover over the seating gone, etc.).  Which would indicate something is happening.

Also, I recently had an excuse to talk with the Tulsa Sports Commission and it hopes the build out will be done and BMX will move by the end of 2018.  So unless something changed recently or the person at the Commission I spoke with was out of the know...

But, please call BMX directly and ask!  It would be very disappointing if that were true.
https://www.usabmx.com/site/sections/56

I know the grandstand for Tulsa Speedway Fair Meadows was being dismantled but I had not noticed anything happening at Driller’s Stadium when I was in Tulsa last week, then again I wasn’t looking for that either.

http://www.sportsdestinations.com/management/marketing-sponsorships/record-year-2016-usa-bmx-and-track-success-increas-12637

This is from 9 days ago

Update: No longer at Fairgrounds

https://www.readfrontier.org/stories/soda-sales-likely-to-keep-proposed-bmx-training-facility-from-expo-square/

Sears and Gordman's across the street?

why would a venue agree to a pouring rights contract like that?

Many large venues, airports, etc. agree to them. They get straight cash and/or heavy discounts.

A better question is though, why would it make any difference to USA BMX when they are getting a $15 million facility paid for by tax payers?

Looking on their website at their sponsors or corporate partners, I don’t see any drink companies affiliated with them.  Taking a wild stab at who they might have as a partner, I Googled Monster Energy, USA BMX and got some hits, but I’m still not clear if Monster sponsors some riders or teams or if they are a corporate partner.

No Mountain Dew?!

THE DEAL'S OFF!

Governments need to be careful with naming rights and pouring rights, etc. Expo Square has exclusive rights to everything. I did events there for two decades and had many arguments about feeding my volunteers, adding my own security, etc.

I think the pouring deal they have with Coca Cola has benefited Expo Square to date. It has meant their logo on stuff, but who cares? It is a Fairgrounds, not a museum.

Sad to see this not work. I grew up at the old Oiler Park and just think that corner is ripe for something cool.

Pouring rights are almost ubiquitous from pro stadiums to high schools.  But I'm a bit surprised there is zero wiggle room either on Expo's side or BMX side (one to save face, one for a space and a $15mil facility).  How long could the pouring deal be for anyway?

Really sucks for the Tulsa Athletics.  They had made the old Driller's stadium a nice little home for themselves, I get that it wasn't there's and they had to move when something else could benefit the public using the same space.  But now it appears we kicked out another local interest at Expo square and will be left with another blank space.   :-[

Pouring rights for 24 years seems excessive.  This is very disappointing because the spirit, if not the specifics, of the $15 million subsidy was to build it at the site of the old Driller’s stadium.  Now we are stuck with a decaying unused stadium and the $15 million (and the attendant economic benefits) will likely end up in suburbia.

I was lukewarm at best to this particular part of the vision package and now it looks far worse than we were promised.

Yeah, this ruins this unless some sort of miracle can be worked out. You would think they would have had this sorted out BEFORE dismantling and destroying the stadium. It could've been used for the Athletics. Now it looks about worthless.

I would prefer they cancel it altogether. That $15 million won't go far on a brand new facility from scratch (they were going to redo the Health center and I am not sure about salvaging any of drillers stadium).

Maybe there's an "unused" park out there on the river they can hand over!

This sounds extraordinarily dumb.

Agree.  I am going with idiotic.

I believe that was done during Randi Miller's time with the county.

I think it's a win-win for a new multi-million dollar legal civic slush fund and for those who think 15th & Yale would be a perfectly good corner for more surface parking that could accommodate more winnebagos and horse trailers a handful of times each year.

A few years ago (pre-Athletics), back when I was trying to lobby both the county and the new North American Soccer League on the stadium's easy-to-convert viability for a soccer team that could reasonably draw 5,000 fans per match, I was taken aback at the county's near obsession with surface parking. In particular, I wanted to share an idea proposed by former Chicago Fire GM Peter Wilt to replace the parking lot in the middle of the horsetrack with a multiple field complex for youth soccer. The only one in favor of even exploring the idea was Karen Keith, the rest told me it would never be seriously considered. I really didn't mind disagreement for future use of the site as much as I resented their priorities.

If the stadium were still available for soccer, I'd rather see both the Roughnecks and A's playing there than at ONEOk and LaFortune, respetively.
And I'd ultimately like to see a Tulsa Athletic(s) club in Peter Wilt's proposed new league alongside fellow NPSL clubs FC Wichita and Little Rock Rangers...
https://www.socceramerica.com/article/73705/nisa-ex-fire-gm-peter-wilt-plans-launch-of-d3-lea.html


Funny how a lack of due diligence at the start caused all this...
It's no surprise that there was a hitch because the idea of USA BMX at old Drillers Stadium was a last minute addition to Vision2025 no matter what their supporters say.
I think it's pathetic that the county kept the Athletics in the dark right up to the minute this taxpayer funded scheme became public.

So, why the hell couldn't they have waited until the full deal was inked before dismantling a perfectly good stadium? Scumbags.
And now we're back at square one with the original concept I watched presented to the city council using land along the river in south Tulsa.

(https://www.readfrontier.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Old-Drillers-Stadium-pic-2017-06-13-at-3.30.07-PM.png)

I started reading your post and thought to myself: “Hey wasn’t that proposed during the council presentations for Johnson Park?”  I think that’s where it was.  Like you and cannon_fodder, it irks me they kicked out a tenant and started knocking down the facility before they’d even reached a legal agreement with USA BMX.  The facility was still in nice shape last time we attended a game there, it’s not like it was falling over and needed a demo.  It could have hosted the Athletics and other teams for many years to come.

Deals like this always seems to have been an issue with the County Commission.  You have three seats, I believe the terms are six years, and there’s really no oversight of the Commission.  Most people aren’t aware of the power they have so I really don’t believe anyone puts much thought into these races once someone is seated on the commission.  Randi Miller is the last one I can think of who was voted out and that was only due to what a controversial individual she was and the fact that Sally Bell was able to rally enough votes from people sympathetic for what had happened with Bell’s being railroaded off the property.  Other than Miller’s ouster, it seems to be one’s position to hold until they no longer want it.

I nominate Tulsa Athletic's co-owner Sonny Dalesandro to run for county commissioner.  ;D

What's the closest QT to that corner?  21st and Harvard?

There are plenty of open parking lots downtown.  Just sayin'.

I know this is crazy and makes no sense, but they could sell the site to BMX for a nominal fee and then it wouldn't be part of Expo Square or covered by it's contract with Coke.

I was thinking something along that same line.  Or, dig into that contract and find some other way to maneuver the ownership or similar to void the contract.

Lets find somewhere to put it! 

Criteria/wishlist:

1. 250,000 - 300,000+ square feet of land (similar to what expo square has)
2. Prefer under government control
3. Prefer existing structure that can be converted to HQ building
4. Prefer somewhere with synergy with existing infrastructure (if we have to build new roads, sewers, etc., $15mil goes away in a second)
5. Synergy with existing businesses (if people stay in a hotel, go to the BMX, and go home the City gains minimal revenue)
6. NOT giving away parkland

A.  My first thought are the lots directly north of Cain's.  I know TDA owns some land up there, exactly what I'm not sure.  But there is plenty of room, it ties in well with the Brady, it is an underutilized part of the City, and a BMX USA HQ sign on the second half of Stove Pipe Hill would be an awesome billboard from 244.  It would also utilize existing infrastructure perfectly and not touch parkland.
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1627134,-95.9930595,521m/data=!3m1!1e3 (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1627134,-95.9930595,521m/data=!3m1!1e3)

B. The Fin Tube site.  Most of the same attributes, PLUS the possibility of retaining some indoor facilities but with the added cost of environmental cleanup.  However, there is enough land it would be possible to add mountain biking track for cheap, cyclo cross for cheap, or something like a velodrome if we felt overly ambitious (one of the things you show on a possibility plan, but likely never actually build).
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1633699,-95.9815485,782m/data=!3m1!1e3 (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1633699,-95.9815485,782m/data=!3m1!1e3)

C. Unusable land between the BA and 444.  Directly across the BA onramp from Boston Ave. Methodist church there is a large section of unused land that the freeway wraps around.  Use it.  There is plenty of surface parking for events, so long as it isn't a church day in the middle of a TCC school day.  While it doesn't tie in very well to a district, it is close PLUS the BA is a direct line to the fair grounds (where the BMX nationals take place around Thanksgiving).
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1427618,-95.9805302,791m/data=!3m1!1e3 (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1427618,-95.9805302,791m/data=!3m1!1e3)

D. Land south of 71st across from Turkey Mountain.  Much of it is City controlled, unfortunately some of it used for drying out solid waste... but there is a lot  of land over there.  Hard to use land.  It would tie in well with the trail system, the desire to develop the river, and the bike improvements coming to Turkey Mountain.
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0555848,-95.9806508,2006m/data=!3m1!1e3 (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0555848,-95.9806508,2006m/data=!3m1!1e3)

E. Land to the south of 61st, across from Turkey Mountain (bounded by 61st and 67th, Hwy 75 and Elwood).  Some of it is City, much of it I believe is held a well known Tulsa family.  It used to be part of the trail network at Turkey, but was cutoff.   Close to existing infrastructure at Tulsa Hills and ties in great with the trails.  Easy trip from several ways to get to Expo. Also - it could be built to seem as if it were in the woods (and largely it would be).  Bonus - open the rest of the land up to expand the Turkey Mountain trails.
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0717278,-95.9964609,1957m/data=!3m1!1e3 (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0717278,-95.9964609,1957m/data=!3m1!1e3)

Tulsa Tough rolled out a proposal last May for a multi-discipline bike park in this general area, also making use of land on the north side of the bridge.  It's hard to argue with this spot as TT's proposal was inclusive of flow tracks as well as world-class cyclo-cross tracks, and a velo-drome.  Tulsa would have something no other city currently has in terms of a major urban wilderness area with a dedicated cycling center adjacent to the area.  This is something not even Colorado Springs or Boulder could boast.

News conference slated for today from the old Evans Fintube site.

http://www.newson6.com/story/35813903/bmx-racing-news-conference-set-at-tulsa-evans-fintube-site

Good use for the site.  I wonder if they'll try to improve connectivity to OSU-Tulsa and downtown?

I mean, honestly-this worked out for the better right? Downtown needs more diversity of things to do besides shop and eat and this is something unique.

You mean other than museums, art galleries and live music?

Yup.

Except for the county jumping the gun on dismantling a perfectly good outdoor venue which was great for soccer and other events.  Otherwise, it is great to see the Evans brownfield site come alive.

It's time to get rid of Mark Andrus as CEO of the fairgrounds!! He has been behind all the crap going on at the fairgrounds!

Dismantling the fairgrounds without a contract on the property is bad business. I don't think it was bad business to have a soda contract.

A 25 year soda contract is bad. business.

I can’t say with 100% certainty, but I doubt major demo contracts happen without the approval of the Fair Board which happens to include all three county commissioners.

I’m not saying this would make Andrus blameless, but he’s basically a bureaucrat.  There are a few more people to shoulder the blame for this.  Three of whom can be voted out.

They hadn't completely dismantled it last I drove by there.  Couldn't they leave in (or reinstall if they have been removed) the lower level seats and let the Athletics back in?  It's not like they ever needed 10,000 seats.  Since they were already spending the money, they could maybe still dismantle the upper deck but leave some lower seats in place.  Or if it's further along that I think, they can maybe buy (or rent) some portable bleachers.  All they need is a patch of grass and some seats and that's still possible at the old stadium site.

While a nice idea, I'm pretty sure the county would never go for that.

They could probably lease the bleachers used for the Chili Bowl and Tulsa Shootout.

Something tells me the Fair Board is just going to be overjoyed with the idea of one less facility to maintain and additional parking though.

It seems to me the City is the big winner and the County is the big loser.  The City finally gets a development on this long-abandoned industrial site that is near downtown and will create spillover demand for downtown hotels/dinning, etc.  The County now has a fully abandoned partially demolished portion of the fair grounds that will generate $0 revenue and it will like lose the big annual in-door BMX race in January.  And the City gets all of this by using a County-wide sales tax.  I think GT just took the County to the woodshed.

Depends on the terms

I missed the presser on this and have not read any of the follow up.  Have they said the Grand Nationals will move over to the training center?  Driving by the fairgrounds during that event, I’m rather skeptical they could possibly accommodate the shear number of participants and their travel vehicles at the Evans site.  It’s possible to move something like that to the BOK, but the situation with parking directly adjacent to the Expo building is really ideal for the participants to get their bikes and spare parts in and out of the building.

The T.World article stated that the new location created some doubt whether the Grand Nationals would continue at the fairgrounds.  It seems logical that BMX would rather hold it at its own facility if it is feasible.  Whether it is feasible is a good question, but one in which the fairgrounds ought to be concerned.

Marq Lewis is pushing back against the idea of locating the BMX facility to the Greenwood area. He apparently wants some set asides re: jobs and community re-investment. This could get interesting.

 ::) ::) ::)

So, remove a blight on the area to create not just a training facility but an Olympic caliber facility and it’s not the right sort of development for Marq Lewis?  I mean, this is a gentrification ignitor for the area.  Depending on the numbers this place will attract I’d think there’s many opportunities for entrepreneurship in the immediate area.

I think the $15 million was part of the city package voted on by just city dwellers.

But I agree that the County lost out bigly.

Haha! Some people will never be happy with anything regardless of what you do. Read the comments on any news article about the Gathering Place and people will still be lamenting how it is a waste of tax payer money! And pre-complaining about how will be full of homeless/no parking/etc..

Could we eventually get something better for the Evans site? Maybe. Has it been available for many years to no avail? Yes. It might take a LONG time to get anything better than this for that spot. This whole north of downtown area is terribly empty with nothing but OSU and bulldozed properties over the last 20 years (except the housing improvement in Brady Heights). Maybe this will get the ball rolling in the area.

To me, this seems like a good compromise. However, I am still sickened that they dismantled the old stadium without a deal AND that they were unable to find a workable compromise on the pouring rights (for example, /leasesell that corner to CoT or some other entity so it is not under the fairgrounds jurisdiction or something).

I believe BMX isn't taking the whole property, there is room for other development, and then take possible sale/lease funds for community investment.

If Randi Miller could make good on her promise to turn Bells Amusement Park into a parking lot...

No, she said "anyone who believes the Bells property would become a parking lot is grossly misinformed"

Of course maybe she was positive her BFF's at "Can't pay the water bill" water park were going to take it over.

If they'd only dismantled the upper deck and left lower deck seating, it would have been far easier.
I know the A's would like to return next year, and will be working towards that end if at all possible.
I'd like to have our soccer team back at the fairgrounds next year, if for no other reason, just so any curious members of the voting public could view the needless devastation.

https://twitter.com/JohnnyFreedom73/status/751852479890030592
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cm8d0ZuXYAEVe9O.jpg)

Until then, myself and about 30-50 other A's fans will trek to Wichita tonight for a playoff game.
Which is probably more than the Roughnecks supporters who drove to OKC last week.

Plot twist:

County contract at issue in failed deal to house BMX at Expo Square would have ended before construction
Contract cited as barrier to BMX site plan set to end before facility could be built

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/county-contract-at-issue-in-failed-deal-to-house-bmx/article_bd3e3da4-0f05-5549-a9dc-c749c68dbe8e.html

So the county not only kicked the Athletics out of the stadium and started selling the seating (for all of $11k!!) based on a contract with USA BMX that didn't yet exist. They ended contract negotiations with USA BMX based on an expiring contract with Coke that would have no impact on USA BMX?

That's some stellar Expo Square management the county has there. I guess nothing changes. Idiots. No wonder the jail is always in crisis.

It's almost like Randi Miller is still commisioner...

With a bunch of uncashed rent checks from Big Splash all over her desk.

They would've bounced anyway.

Remember when they kicked out Bell's and promised us "not a giant surface parking lot."  And we all laughed and laughed...

 :(

I'd like to know if an investigative reporter can see if the Drillers and/or Bob Funk Jr/Prodigal Sports have their fingerprints anywhere near this situation.
It would sure be in the interest of a certain local USL pro soccer team if Tulsa Athletic simply faded away and had to play their games at Veterans Park like a good little pawn.
So the Drillers/Funk Jr can sell the club to someone who will take a deal to move out of downtown Tulsa to Jenks...

What several entities did to Tulsa Athletic after they drew over 3,400 fans their first year at the fairgrounds in 2013 (despite not having access to the huge parking lot in the middle of the horsetrack) stinks to high heaven.

bitter conspiracy rumors are beneath discussion.

This is a political travesty and those responsible need to be held accountable.

The Drillers and Prodigal LLC have had serious conflicts of interest since Day One.
And no use for the Tulsa Athletics except as a subservient feeder club.

Remember Bells...

http://napha.org/DISCUSSIONS/tabid/57/aft/2390/Default.aspx

Athletics were paying $5800 per month (first year was $5500 per month) AND the county was getting 100 percent of all concessions revenue.
Athletics were performing most (if not all) stadium and field maintenance.
Bait + switch = Parking lot instead of a soccer team that was still managing to draw average crowds of 2200 fans per game in 2016.

Where you see conspiracy I see a group who never considered the Athletics to be a real tenant. Bells was big business for decades. The Athletics were just a way to make a few bucks before they tore down the stadium. If they could have, the health department, horse track and stadium would have been gone years ago.

What is the plan for the stadium now that BMX is (most likely) not going to be there?  Is there a master plan for future development at the fairgrounds? 

So, it's okay for political officials and their paid bureaucrats to screw the little guy, but not okay when Bells was falling behind on their lease payments?  Got it.

Also, I've heard enough about the shenanigans from Funk Jr/Energy FC to keep NASL OKC from ever getting off the ground and keep them from using any OKC facilities to make my hair stand on end.

For them to put their thumb(s) on the scales at the fairgrounds wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.


We need to find out the real reason why BMX didn't locate there first.

Since there is no publicly available master plan for future development at the fairgrounds, I'm betting they'll put some horse barns there so nobody can accuse them of flattening a 10k-seat stadium in favor of surface parking.  

Editorial: Old Drillers stadium runs dry
https://thezousehouse.wordpress.com/2017/07/30/editorial-old-drillers-stadium-runs-dry/

The reason I ask is what is the long-term viability of even having the fairgrounds at 21st & Yale?  Obviously they've put a lot of money into the horse barns and other facilities over the years but why does this (thinking long term here) need to be in the middle of the city? 

Maybe partially because it's county land?

(https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/a/5a/a5ade723-a560-5d2f-8796-65523ed58898/597acb7ca0244.image.jpg?resize=1200%2C581)

BMX still committed to Tulsa and it seems like they are moving forward with the FinTube site.  I assume they got the idea from reading TulsaNow.  :)

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/john-klein-tulsa-is-the-absolute-best-place-for-usa/article_f43b75f4-a5c1-58e0-955e-22f1c5e2c730.html


I think it's a good fit.  Close enough to downtown to have lodging for competitors and to draw them into spend some money while in town.  Out of the way enough that a large facility that usually has limited activity isn't breaking walkability.  I'm disappointed that the project fell through at the fairgrounds (particularly with how it went down with the Athletics), but this could work out to be a better location for BMX.  Now, lets add a mountain bike trail so I can get some use out of it.   ;)

I believe I heard a chamber person say yesterday that the lack of 1,000 room hotels is still an issue, as large events must book multiple hotels and very large events have to book many, many hotels.

There are strangely few 1000+ room hotels in the world.   I don't know that is truly an issue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_hotels

Outside of resort towns (Orlando, Vegas, Atlantic City, Reno, Honolulu...) and the largest metro areas (LA, Chicago, NYC, Dallas, Houston, San Francisco, Phili, Boston, Atlanta) there are  very few in the US:

San Antonio
Austin
Denver
New Orleans
San Diego
Phoenix
Detroit
Indianapolis
Louisville
Nashville
St. Louis

And even those are large metro areas, and most of them have one or two 1000+ room hotels.  Detroit has one because it used to be larger.  Indianapolis, Louisville, Nashville, and St. Louis appear to be the smallest non-resort towns to have one.  BMX USA is currently in Gilbert, a suburb of Phoenix.  Phoenix has 1 hotel over 1000, and it has exactly 1000 rooms. 

Mineapolis
Kansas City
Oklahoma City
Seattle
Portland
Milwaukee
Cincinatti
Cleveland
San Jose
Jacksonville
Charlotte
Memphis
Baltimore
Pittsburgh

and Tulsa. Somehow Tulsa has managed to host BMX largest event for more than a decade and do it without a 1000 room hotel.  Why would it be an issue now?

Very true.  A 1,000 room hotel is just about the last thing Tulsa needs.  FWIW, I don't think St Louis has one.

FWIW the Omni hotel at the new OKC convention center is only 600 rooms.

I looked it up, Kansas City has one hotel with over 1,000 rooms, so does Denver. Dallas has five. Hotels that size are not common and shows that use only 1,000 rooms are not large, unless that's the hotel for the staff.

^^ And this.  Typically, event promoters for amateur events do not book rooms for participants.  They might take blocks for officials and such but they don't have someone in their office scrambling around to book 1500 hotel rooms.

So I have always been confused as to why this is an issue as well. I mean, I understand having one large hotel as the epicenter of your event is great, and a legitimate desire, so I would think 500+ and tons of floor space would be deal breakers if we didn't have it.

But, early next year I'm going to an event that primarily uses the CNN Center in Atlanta, and about 6 other hotels, because even that isn't big enough. There were obviously plenty with walking distance (or tram) to the convention center so I really don't see the big problem I suppose. Now if Tulsa lacked a cluster of hotels that bested 1,000, that would be a legitimate issue. But I don't think that's an issue is it?

The biggest show I’ve been to is Dreamforce in San Francisco. 150,000 attendees. The show itself not only fills the entire Moscone Convention Center but also uses every room in every large hotel in downtown SF.

Every hotel in the bay area is filled by the show. One year I booked late and had to stay in Emeryville north of Oakland. It was an hour each way to Moscone and even that hotel was filled with attendees.

A single hotel is not that important. I think hotel chains tell city officials that these large hotels are needed in an effort to get tax money to help them build large hotels on the public dime. It’s just free money.

Which hotel in Kansas City has more than 1,000 rooms?

We call those "alternate" facts.   Heavily researched...   Sort of...  Maybe.

I think none.  The largest I could find is 983:
http://www.cvent.com/rfp/kansas-city-mo-meeting-hotels-d1cb313b718440f7a492960a3cea3417.aspx

In St. Louis it is the Marriott St. Louis Grand.  Sounds like one of those instances where the City really wanted to be able to brag that it had a 1000 room hotel, but it seems like it was a bit rocky.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriott_St._Louis_Grand_Hotel

The St Louis Grand was very rocky indeed.  And it only has 917 rooms, having been down-sized after failing miserably.

 A site I looked at last night said the Marriott had 1,100 rooms. On their own site it says 983. I was off.

I'd be curious to know if there has been any particular event that wanted to be in Tulsa but was unable to do so for lack of 1,000 room hotel.  My guess is that, if that ever happened, there were other reasons they turned Tulsa down, like lack of any real amenities downtown.  I'm always shocked when I see a shuttle from the downtown Hyatt or Doubletree at Walgreens at 15th and Lewis, because it's apparently the closest place to get basic items after dark.  When I stay in big cities, I usually find the closest drug or convenient store to walk to for water and toiletries I may have forgotten.  Not in Tulsa though.  I really hope the Reasors gets done on the PAC lot and that it is open fairly late into the evenings.

I don't think Reasors' stores close, I know the one in Jenks is 24 hours.

This has been brought up by the CVB off and on since the BOK Center and Convention Center construction started. Tulsa is pretty central geographically and could pitch itself as "a convention town" but conventions want to book out large blocks of rooms at 1-2 places as "the official hotel(s)" and not a half dozen. That's why they go place like San Diego and Vegas (I think every work convention I've ever been to or thought about has been in Vegas) I believe their thinking is that if some percent, say 10%, typically stay at "the official hotel" then if our largest hotel is 600 rooms, our largest convention is 6,000 attendees (assuming single occupancy). The diversity of ownership may be an issue too. If the Hyatt opened a second Hyatt a block over with another 400-500 rooms, then they could treat those as single vendor. Vegas does similar as a few owners own about half of the strip.

Most of the times the conventions love people to stay in their blocks for strictly selfish reasons.   Typically a convention will get at least one room comped for every 6-8 reserved.   After enough, they may get the convention facilities free and other discounts.

https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/government-and-politics/bmx-project-cost-increases-by-nearly-million-won-t-be/article_b4a3ea5c-3d74-5084-8347-0a5cbfae6d74.html

BMX project cost increases by nearly $8 million, won't be completed till 2021, city officials say

raise your hand if you're surprised

All this after they destroyed a perfectly good ball park at Expo Square due to a soda contract.

Fast-forward six months and USA BMX will pull out of its Tulsa plans.

I wondered about that as well

The stadium was coming down either way, I think. It was outdated. I liked the soccer games there, and would have supported some reconfiguration for the team's permanent use, but I also think the atmosphere at Veterans Park is pretty awesome too.  I also like the idea of revitalizing the Fintube site. But it still blows my mind that this whole thing fell apart over a friggin soda contract and that the stadium site will be yet another midtown parking lot. But I agree that BMX is likely to pull out soon which sucks.

It was around 40 years old but had been quite well-maintained and was a perfect venue for semi-pro sports.  But hey, let's add to the city's heat island!

Let's not forget the rain runoff.

What is the long term plan for the stadium site at the fairgrounds?  What makes the most sense for this location?

If BMX pulls out I always liked the idea of an OSU research campus at the Fintube site

(http://kotv.images.worldnow.com/images/8195534_G.jpg)

I think I read parking lot for now while they try to find a buyer. My best guess is it'll ultimately be a big box strip mall with plenty of chain "fast-casual" food offerings. Ugh.

I doubt the county would sell it to a private developer but you're right parking lot is probably the short-term (and possibly long-term) use.  Looking at an aerial of the fairgrounds the county should allow the city to annex the land east of New Haven (where Bell's used to be).  Then the city can sell those blocks to a private developer for residential infill similar to what they've done at the old Barnard Elementary. 

The Barnard development had great potential, but looks like they shot too high with prices. It has taken a long time to sell any lots and 1-2 of the 3 houses built have been on market for 2 years. But props to the developers for putting garages in back and making nicely styled homes that fit the area. I do hope they sell soon and get built to make that a completed neighborhood.

That would be a far better use of all those empty lots in the fairgrounds! I hope the economics of it push it to that eventually.

I’m sure the new suburban QuikTrip down the street will cause the remaining lots to sell like hotcakes!

Some might see that as an advantage.  But yeah ugh, hopefully this is the last intrusion of QT into midtown neighborhoods.

It looks like they've sold 8 of 18 7500 SF lots at Barnard Trace.  Honestly they don't seem too overpriced for midtown lots at $26/sf but maybe not in Yorktown.  

Anything over in Sunrise Terrace would have to be a lower price point, with smaller lots/homes.  Perfect spot for more affordable homes on the edge of midtown.  Better than a sea of parking lots (next to another sea of parking lots).

I noticed all the remaining Barnard Trace lots and 2 homes that were for sale are now all listed as "Pending". Not sure if that means they're all selling to a different real estate company (seems likely) or if they just happened to find a slew of buyers all at once.

The price for the lots isn't exorbitant, but they've been on sale for years and doesn't seem like much more is being built. I've seen lots in surrounding neighborhoods going for around $80k-$120k so the list price of around $200k seemed pretty ambitious. And I'm sure they'd only sell with obligatory contracts to build from the pre-selected design options using their contractors.

Ground-breaking news!!!

https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/government-and-politics/after-delays-city-to-break-ground-on-bmx-facilities-friday/article_da277d83-98a2-512d-8f64-8a22dd174792.html (https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/government-and-politics/after-delays-city-to-break-ground-on-bmx-facilities-friday/article_da277d83-98a2-512d-8f64-8a22dd174792.html)

So instead of 2018 (approximate original date), it has been pushed back to 2021. The details of the lease are shown:

How is the "Tulsa Parking Authority" funding this!?! Are they going to have fee collection jurisdiction to pay that money back?

How is this being paid for from money voters elected to go to the University Center at Tulsa/OSU-Tulsa!?!

The $66k/year rent (actually will be ~$40k minus up-front payment) is a drop in a bucket for a $22 million price tag. With such a massive and expensive place for such low price, it seems they could leave it empty most the time and just host those events there and it will be cheaper than renting space for those events otherwise.

I get there's many auxillary benefits (they claim 100k visitors per year... who knows if that will be close to reality), and that this might just sit vacant for years otherwise, but how would all of that fare vs just allowing the place to be redeveloped normally or turned into an area to build dense housing? Has the city done an ROI study to see if it is really worth paying $23 million to get a pretty small HQ with some small to mid sized events? Basically letting them stay virtually rent-free and if they ever break the contract, Tulsa will be left with the customized for-BMX buildings and nothing financially to show for it. BMX can get up and walk away at any time and all they lose is the initial $1.5 million investment (which for a facility like this is like a couple years rent or so). There's no teeth or substantial deposit on BMX's end vs the taxpayers' guaranteed $22 million being paid.


This just seems like another version of corporate welfare like with NFL/NBA stadiums where taxpayers pay for a billionaire's new stadium. Despite claims, there's typically not much "trickle down" effect and it usually just acts as an economic centralizer for entertainment dollars. In this case, maybe the visitors coming to Tulsa will be a big enough boost in that entertainment dollar pool to make up for it, but that is still to be seen and will only pay off if they stick around for some unknown amount of time (Is that 10 years? 20 years? All 30 years of the lease?).

This is the part we can all get excited about. Since CofTulsa is all-in on this dubious "investment" (far beyond what the voters approved), which corporate real-estate oligarchs will hop onto this land giveaway and get a tax-free tax haven to build these ashes into gold? We don't yet know, and the RFPs won't be out for years, but I bet GT Bynum already know whose greasy palms he needs to pay back for getting him in office.

It's conveniently in an "Opportunity Zone" (also nominated/selected by the CoT) where the rich can defer taxes and profit tax-free on the backs of depleted areas which the city has helped deteriorate by policing, policy or sector-plans long ago:
https://maps.cityoftulsa.org/opportunityzones/ (https://maps.cityoftulsa.org/opportunityzones/)

I don't see the same ROI that a more mainstream facility like BOK Center brings to the area economy.  I also think the ask on this was originally around $10 or $12 mil on the V-2025 extension wasn't it?  

Let's not forget the casualty cost of losing a perfectly good destroyed ball park in addition to the $23mm this has now swelled to.  This was probably my least favorite project on the slate for the renewal even though I'm a cyclist.  My favorite was the Gilcrease renovation and connector to the Riverside trail system, by far.

I had a vested interest in the Turkey Mountain land purchase since I was the one who presented the ask to the Council on behalf of TUWC and outdoor enthusiasts.  At least we had real data to work with showing that Turkey Mountain was a daily draw from all over the area and was one asset we had which was attracting people in from the suburbs and other outlining areas who might not otherwise have had a reason to visit and spend money in the near area.

Granted, not every asset needs a turnstile or needs to be conventional in terms of ROI.  Sometimes it's the cool factor or livability factor which might lure new employers to the area like a pro ball team or bring people up the pike from OKC.  In my thinking though, BMX doesn't seem to have that draw for employers to relocate here.  I just can't see Citibank or Amazon moving a unit here in part because we have USA BMX.  I don't recall how many cyclists they thought would be training in Tulsa at any given time, does anyone else?  That's would be some of the payback in terms of new money in the economy.  

From what I remember of the cars in the parking area at Expo Square during the Grand Nationals, their big events do draw people in from far and wide.  Just curious what it does for Tulsa the rest of the time.

The Chili Bowl and Shootout are huge tourism events, but the city or county has never had to give the owners of those events a penny to keep the events in Tulsa or for some sort of corporate HQ facility.

Earlier this year The County committed to providing all new aluminum bleachers which are presently in fabrication.  A minimum of the first phase of the new bleachers will be in place to support this seasons events and in return the Chili Bowl agreed to a significantly extended contract.

I could be wrong on the location, but I'm pretty sure they've been putting in some serious work on this. Will try to get pictures next time I'm in the office.

If referring to the BMX facility, a significant amount of work has already been completed.

Construction on BMX facilities continues north of downtown

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/construction-on-bmx-facilities-continues-north-of-downtown/article_cecaf99e-54aa-11eb-bb10-479b85a95d1c.html

Anyone know if there's been any progress made with the old FinTube building to the south of this? Wasn't there a RFP put out last year for developers?

I drive by this project every week or so, and I have not noticed any evidence from the street view of any progress on the FinTube building.  Perhaps it is still in planning stage or they simply want to complete the new building project first.  I am anxious to see what becomes of the FinTube building.

Couple of pictures I snagged the other day.  This thing is going to be a huge.

(https://i.imgur.com/qKDhIqr.jpg)




(https://i.imgur.com/1YSzmFD.jpg)

It does look big.  Not to mention that things always seem to appear smaller in pictures than in real life. 

(https://tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/live/#1)

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/new-bmx-arena-headquarters-nearly-50-completed/article_f8915248-85cc-11eb-a7dc-3ff4d4ad9cb5.html?utm_campaign=snd-autopilot&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook_Tulsa_World (https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/new-bmx-arena-headquarters-nearly-50-completed/article_f8915248-85cc-11eb-a7dc-3ff4d4ad9cb5.html?utm_campaign=snd-autopilot&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook_Tulsa_World)

Per the TW article today.  I'm not sure what "mixed-use development" is best suited for this site but look forward to seeing it redeveloped.  It reminds me of the building that American Solera renovated into a brewery, only much larger.

https://www.fox23.com/news/video-construction-continues-new-bmx-headquarters-tulsa/1e134985-eba4-495d-a8ac-8846b5155f1b/ (https://www.fox23.com/news/video-construction-continues-new-bmx-headquarters-tulsa/1e134985-eba4-495d-a8ac-8846b5155f1b/)

I still think the Evans Fintube site would be perfect for a science & industry-type museum

(https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/7/7d/77d0bc58-fa10-11eb-aa90-2fede3699b49/6112d23c272be.image.jpg?resize=1200%2C675)