The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

Does anyone know anything about this project? It seems to be happening in the lot just south of Soundpony. We live in Brady Heights so we are by here almost daily, and the signage went up about a week ago.

They have a website, which says nothing, but I can find nothing else about the project.

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8714/17136096819_0571f9a06b.jpg)

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8807/16702069453_9e1f26184a.jpg)

I don't know anything about it either but the rendering looks nice.  I'd curious to know if they are rentals or for-purchase condos.  Those upper floor units will have some stellar views.

The sign says "Starting at 450K" so I will guess they will be for sale.

My first thought was "This would be a fantastic place to watch Tulsa Tough."

Awesome. I've been wondering when that lot would be developed. Rendering looks great.

Whoa, those are spendy (why does it make me think Bumgarner?). It's wonderful that the development is moving north. There is a giant emply lot just across the street that is begging for development and lots of empty space north of 244.

There will be 8 very high end, for-purchase lofts. That's probably all I can say right now.

Only 8 units in that massive building? Too bad.

I'll be so glad when there are actual places to live in the Brady district that aren't $450k to buy/$1,300 a month to rent apartments or only for Teach for America participants. Middle ground, please. 

I wouldn't expect that any time soon, and probably not ever.

Until they inevitably don't sell, then they will be 8 high-end rentals.

$450,000 isn't terrible compared to the $850,000 Urban 8

I give this project 3x the likelyhood of being successful than Urban 8

Just imagine if this was 16 units for $225,000. How quickly do you think those would sell? I bet 2 or 3 times faster.

Looks really good too.

The upper floors look good, but I'm concerned that the first floor has very few windows, is out of scale with any nearby buildings, and is mostly blank brick walls with a couple garage entrances. Definitely not going to encourage any sort of street life. And I doubt the folks willing to pay $450,000 for a unit in the building will ever let their feet touch the sidewalk in front of the building, especially when they can drive in, park, and never interact with another human. See: snout houses.

Right, unless there is retail on the ground floor that building will just act as another "gap" in any lively pedestrian fabric.

This is why I have started using the term "pedestrian lively" versus just putting a shout out for "pedestrian friendly".   Other cities have learned the lesson that, yes pedestrian friendly is good, but in order to have an "active streetscape" you need to have what I call "pedestrian lively" development.  I have seen some cities that have zoning along some streets and or incentives to get that type of development.  They will explicitly discourage "living at street level" on these streets for they realize that will harm the creation of a pedestrian lively corridor.  And some will even go so far as to discourage office on the ground floor and will instead encourage, retail, dining, entertainment, services, etc.

If your looking to create that lively, "main street" type atmosphere, living at street level on those streets will hurt that.

Again am reminded of my last "walkabout" in parts of OKC and thinking.... "It's like they took all the pieces (buildings, shops, living, etc,) of a real city, put them in a bag, shook it up, and then opened up the top and scattered them all out there to land willy nilly with no rhyme or reason.  And then in Dallas, streets with lots of living just like this, and the occasional cluster of shops or restaurants, but sidewalks so quiet you could hear crickets.  

I am of course still hopeful about our downtown. But this will create a quiet gap there on main street. 

  

That's way above my financial threshold of pain for an apartment.

Mine as well. I like the vibe of the Brady district. I'm not interested in it becoming another Brookside.

It takes a mix of people to keep a place like Brady going. Come one, come all!

While I agree with DS and Williams points about streetscape, so long as street front retail remains with higher vacancy rates, it won't be included. The new building on Greenwood, Cimerex tower, main street parking garage - all chronic vacancies.

Now, they do seem to be filling up and gaining momentum and the new hotel in the Brady has had its ground floor fully occupied since it opened, But it is hard to deride a developer when it is a still seen as a gamble and people demand ready parking.

Like everyone else, I hope to see middle-class housing development too. Maybe a block of row houses with "English style" tiny backyards. Help bridge the transition from pure suburban (big lawn) and purely urban (no lawn). Gives people an option to have a grill, dog, and some plants.

5 stories, 8 units. Would seem to suggest two per floor meaning 1st floor retail.

Looks like parking.

My guess too, with a lobby in the center for residents to enter/exit on Main.  This would be better facing Boulder or Boston where there isn't as much of an existing concentration of retail, but other than that it's decent infill.  I would hope whatever eventually gets built across the street on the big vacant lot and just to the south of this at Main & Cameron would have some kind of retail space fronting Main.

Retail is tough in a downtown environment like ours which is why I would like to see some helpful coordination if its something we want downtown.  I wouldn't want to be in the Cimerex Tower or that new building on Greenwood either.  It took a special kind of crazy to go in where I did and a lot of other retail "entrepreneur" types are going into areas hoping that they will evolve to their favor.  I know many who aren't making money but are again, hoping that future changes will "do the right thing" and their risk will pay off.

There are no good or great areas for retail downtown right now. There are, well this will have to do and its the best I can get, sort of things.  Then we sit around and watch what goes in around us hoping that its in a direction that will help.

I know it probably seems awful to be so picky about things like this.  It really is exciting to see new growth downtown of almost any sort.

But I keep thinking, we could still be having the same amount of growth, but in a way that we could see that good chunks of it were acting together towards something really great!  Not, well it may turn out ok, it may not.  And when you look at "lessons learned" from other cities that are 20-30 years ahead of us and they are indicating that we may indeed continue to see growth over the next 20 years, and will turn around and go "Whoops, we got all that and we still aren't happy" "What did we do wrong?".   Meanwhile real businesses, livelihoods, and dreams have been on the line.  I don't want to be here 20 years from now going "See I told you so."  Trust me I DO NOT want to be in that position, because that would mean things did not turn out well.

I still maintain that "affordable" housing is old stuff that had deferred maintenance.

Several friends and relatives have lived in those places.  Not bad but not new.

I don't think that the people that buy these will be hanging out at SoundPony

The price point does seem a bit odd for that neighborhood.  I wonder who their target is?  Young artistic hipsters with trust funds?

My guess is empty nesters.

I'd like to see a few small retail areas here too. I wish the city would acquire the land to the south of this and build a street that would connect Boston and Main. You could extend it to connect to Boulder as well. This block is very long and could use some sort of break up. If you built a street there, you could add retail on this project along there too and have access to parking for the building along that alley way instead of on Main Street. You could have extended this new street to Detroit where the Park is if KOTV hadn't built that massive elevated surface parking lot.

I’m thinking concert night or any weekend night at Soundpony won’t play well with the owners of these units.

The Katy RR used to go through here which is why there isn't a road between those streets; you can see the old rail bridge for it over Denver Ave.  If not a road then what about a landscaped pedestrian pathway?  

Ah ok, that's why the parcels look so odd. I figured it was some sort of older easement.

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/538/TsFkMe.png) (https://imageshack.com/i/eyTsFkMep)

A landscape pedestrian pathway would be great too along this area. It could be extended to Cheyenne or Denver too eventually.

I'd love to see some laneways built in Tulsa. They're extremely successful in a lot of urban areas. There's several alleys in the CBD especially I think would make fantastic areas for pedestrians and small hole in the wall food places or stores. Would make great incubator spaces or space for people who want to operate smaller food places with under 10 tables.

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/537/bfAfqT.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/exbfAfqTj)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/911/Xyt2LM.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pbXyt2LMj)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/661/bmmF10.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/idbmmF10j)

Really neat places.  Love going to those in other cities, makes you feel like your in a different world and they often lead to other interesting places (perhaps why they become this way because of that traffic)  then "pop" your back out on the regular streets again with completely different sounds and feeling.

I think Downtown is the best place in the state right now for retail. Open the doors and they will come.

Also, TheArtist...have you considered moving down a block or is the rent significantly different? I think the biggest issue you all have is that you are a block too far south and the pop up shops in the Philcade confuse people with where to enter. Our shop is doing great, but I'd love to see more retail at 5th and Boston.

Food at 5th & Boston is one thing.  Cool & quirky isn’t quite as impulsive or intuitive.

Don't need cars to pass thru between Main & Boston or Main & Boulder.  Make them pedestrian or bicycle only.  City shouldn't have to do that.  That could be done from a private developer.

Although, does the Brady Dist still have TIF that could do something like this?

I think we have about as good a location as any downtown for retail.  A better location could be on Boston Ave at 5th but there aren't any spaces available.  My next best hope would be to get into the ground floor of the Enterprise building.  Hopefully by the time they have that building renovated we will be in the position to expand into a larger space and have two complimentary stores.

We are actually making a profit this year  ;D    First year was all money going in, second was putting a little more in and holding steady while growing inventory and product lines.  This year is refining product lines (whats selling whats not), squeezing out efficiencies, growing our customer base, growing our own line of more profitable products, and improving our customer experience.  (meanwhile I have been out of town most of this year which has slowed down some progress) But Chris, our "money guy" is saying we are doing surprisingly well.  Our second year we doubled what we did our first full year, and we were thinking we should shoot for 25% growth this our third year, so far we are doing double over what we did our second year.  And I can see we have room to do a LOT better.

 I am really curious how our May/Mayfest numbers will do compared to last year. Looks like there will be more festival stuff going on further north "Art Car event at Living Arts" so hoping any pull towards that direction will not hurt us.  It's tricky enough being one block off Main during Mayfest.

 But again, as you point out, location is key and being just a block off, a building or two away, can affect your business in a downtown environment, which is why I point out what can happen if growth is willy nilly and you plop in a pedestrian unfriendly building or even a pedestrian friendly building that is not "pedestrian lively" (one that has office or living on the ground floor instead of shopping, restaurant, services, etc.) onto a street.  

Their website  (http://davenportlofts.com/)has been significantly updated, with floor plans, info on the developers, and other interesting clues.  For example, I do not recognize several of the "planned" developments in this map of the neighborhood. What's that between Denver and Cheyenne? Public Parking where the milk trucks are now? Office space between on Archer between Cincinnati and Detroit? And I had totally forgotten about the flats on Archer since they were mentioned in this January 2014 piece (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/downtown-tulsa-living-options-grow-as-units-planned-in-projects/article_66a9f956-e7af-553d-a201-3f34ecec6528.html) and we didn't include them in the downtown development overview (http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=21006) we did in April. Maybe Davenport's info is outdated.

(http://www.davenportlofts.com/images/Pictures/neighborhood.jpg)

The project between Cheyenne and Denver, at least to my knowledge, is a warehouse rehab project by Garrison Hassenflu and Sager. I watched it work its way through INCOG some months back. The fact that Sager is involved gives me very little confidence it will ever happen.

www.garrisoncompanies.com

It's certainly a great location.  Would love to see it developed into something. If Sager is involved though, well, we all know where that goes.

Their map also claims that Cheyenne will be streetscaped and made a "connecting corridor"—something I suggested recently (https://twitter.com/gratherton/status/604304775128158208) as it's our last all brick street and it's really in need of a clean up.

Cheyenne needs it. Walking between the Brady to the BOK Center via Cheyenne feels sketchy. I try to avoid it, choosing Boulder or Main instead.

http://m.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/davenport-urban-lofts-to-allow-people-to-buy-lofts-in/article_3110a001-f343-5b86-ae90-9b7b6c973d09.html?mode=jqm

All but guarantees there will be no ground floor retail

Do you remember what months? I'd love to go back through the agenda's to see if there's any details to pull out - or do you remember anymore about it?

I drive by this building all the time and it's one of my favorite downtown. I think the elevated covered areas facing Cheyenne would make awesome outdoor restaurant space with office/residential above.


The Office space between Cincinnati and Detroit on Archer is owned by the BOK Foundation. I was wondering if this would be Kaiser's next museum project, but maybe they will turn it into a mixed-use project.

Also, the public parking on here where the truck lot is, I hope doesn't become a massive parking garage. I know there has been talk about building a garage in the Brady - but with the OKPOP and the Williams garage I just don't think another parking structure is needed in the Brady. I'd rather see that lot developed into apartments and retail. 

From what I gather, "the powers that be" have studied the issue and also don't think there is a need for parking in the Brady Arts District, especially now that the OK Pop will be adding another garage in the area.

May 7, 2014. Garrison Hassenflu requested the property be taken from IL to CBD (it was approved). I think I remember the only connection to Sager in the application was an email from him to Garrison that was attached to the application.

http://www.tmapc.org/Historic%20Agenda%20Log.htm

Infill in the truck lot is ideal, but if it's not a possibility, I wouldn't mind it becoming even a well maintaned and landscaped surface lot with Brady Theater on display.  A parking garage would be pointless and unnecessary and would block great views of Brady Theater.  Anything is better than storing industrial milk trucks though. 

The lost Ogle is trying to incite some kind of gentrification freak out over this development: http://www.thelostogle.com/2015/06/23/please-build-davenport-lofts-literally-anywhere-else-in-downtown-tulsa/

It really rubs me the wrong way, mostly because of the implication that anyone in Tulsa who can afford a $450k apartment is an old grey haired suburbanite who wants to think they're still hip. The big scare is that proximity to these old geezers will make their precious hipster bar less cool.

I could understand if we were looking at another Trader Joe's situation where old niche businesses were being forced out, but they're just replacing a crappy vacant lot. Of course the street is going to be unrecognizable in a few years, it's prime real estate currently occupied by crappy metal buildings, empty lots, and truck parking. I don't think this counts as gentrification if there's barely anything there to begin with.

It is going to end up with them complaining about the noise in the bar. Its like building your house next to a sewage plant and then complaining because it smells.  They were there first.

Or my favorite, moving in next to an airport and then complaining about airplane noise. 

The major problem is these people are in for a treat the first weekend they move in and there's a band playing at Soundpony.

I also lover how she claims "you won't recognize the street in a few year" and "we want nothing more than to blend into the district". You won't, because this will act as a giant dead spot with a parking garage entrance fronting one of Tulsa's fastest growing retail streets. Great job and great design I tell you! You are doing the complete opposite from blending in by breaking up a retail corridor with a huge dead spot with a parking garage entrance fronting the street. Move it to the alley and add street fronting retail and you will be on your way to fitting into the urban fabric of the Brady.

I wouldn't be surprised if this meat the fate of other Tulsa condo developments aimed at empty nesters. It's expensive and these are essentially one bedroom units with a microscopic 2nd bedroom/den. I don't see how many people will be interested in a $450,000 - 1,000 sq. ft. - 1 bedroom unit. You can tell these are being done by someone who doesn't understand the urban market. I cracked up when I saw this comment on Facebook "Leave it to a middle-aged Bixby transplant to screw up downtown. Leave the Brady District alone suburbanites"

There is now a petition on change.org as well started tonight called "Save the Brady Arts District from the Davenport"

https://www.change.org/p/tulsa-city-council-davenport-urban-lofts-development-group-save-the-brady-arts-district-from-the-davenport-e1202c27-ed0b-4559-9151-6f8cecc2a414?recruiter=326694501&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=share_facebook_responsive&utm_term=des-lg-new_account-no_msg&fb_ref=Default

200+ "signatures" in an hour

^I agree that I'd rather it be retail, but all this talk about how people don't actually want to live near this stuff is the opposite message that we need to be promoting. It's all knee-jerk imaginary worst case scenarios and ignores everything you see happening in awesome cities like KC or Austin. We can talk about encouraging things to be changed or moved around, and how Soundpony and Cain's need to be protected, but the freaking out over slightly richer, potentially older people being around isn't helping anyone.

There are so many things people should be outraged over instead as far as developments are concerned in this city.

Yea, you won't move there if you don't want to be downtown and around all that now comes with living downtown.

I don't think the Davenport is going to cause any more of a dead spot than the empty lot currently there or whateverthehell business next door that keeps the northbound lanes blocked all day by a rented moving truck.

Nothing screams 'neighborly,''walkability,' and 'development' like a road block all day Mon-Fri. They are the biggest risk to Main Street, not Davenport.

This.  I am not seeing the big problem with this project.  If they use good sound proofing techniques, then I doubt this will be much more noisy than most other apartments.

Downtown definitely needs more housing options but they may find these lofts a tough sell at $450/ft. especially in an area that is somewhat self- defined as a music and bar area. 

One of the Brady District’s assets, IMO, has been it’s diversity.  Perhaps the Soundpony & Cains management can ask for a variance on their music since they have been long time staples in the area.  Either that, or as one poster suggested, install appropriate sound proofing and that won’t be an issue.  I’d think at $450/ft that is a cost they could factor in rather easily.

If, eventually, SP’s landlord decides to do something else and raise the rent, there are other places it could do just as well, they’ve got a loyal following.

These aren't pricing at $450, it's more like half that. Urban 8 might be closer to $400, but not this one.

NIMBY has hit downtown!  We've FINALLY arrived as America's next great urban center!

The story says $450,000 lofts averaging 1000 sq. ft.  

450,000/1000=450.  Unless I borrowed the Metro Chamber’s chronically broken calculator.

/edit, relying on other poster’s comments or assertions from the article.  You are correct, sizes are 1800-2700 per the development website, starts at $450,000/unit.

I think if you build housing next to a bar/concert venue the noise issues should fall back on the builder.  Its easy for a builder to tell you "sure its soundproofed" and do a half assed job.  Unless you get a viewing of an apartment or condo at 1 am on a Sunday ("Saturday" Night) you aren't going to have any idea what it really sounds like.  We all know that isn't going to happen.

It's my favorite NIMBY argument ever!  "You shouldn't live hear because we're loud!"

I'm actually sympathetic to the Soundpony's concerns.  The gargantuan scale of these apartments suggests they are catering to folks who may not actually "get" the downtown vibe.  I mean, when your walk-in closet is the size of some studio apartments, you start to wonder...  (insert suburban stereotype here).

Another rule of thumb: Folks who live in half-million dollar homes tend to expect to have their complaints taken seriously.

Remember all those people who bought houses next to Bells Amusement Park, and then complained about Zingo?  Really?  As if you didn't know there was a roller coaster there!  Same with people who buy houses near airports and then complain about the aircraft taking off and landing.
  
Maybe Sound Pony needs to put a big sign on their building that says: "Caution: downtown music scene!  Expect exuberant crowds and loud noise late at night!"  Then, they could provide a map to the "dead" areas of downtown (plenty of acreage available for development of quiet, ginormous apartments) so potential buyers could see their options.

Change the ordinance. Keep the development. Easy and proactive compromise.

Urban 8 starts at $875K

Really, people who buy these are going to have to drive or walk up to them and it will be hard to miss the CAINS sign or all of the bikes outside of Soundpony or the smell of cigs (or whatever) coming from the back of Soundpony. Anyone moving in here will know what they are getting into. The Davenport is much better than the empty lot...let's find other things to protest.

It’s been a while since I’ve looked at the issue, but generally a prior use is not a absolute defense to a nuisance complaint - it is merely one of many factors.  I also assume Tulsa’s noise ordinances apply to downtown just like everywhere else.  Maybe those have been loosely enforced in this area in the past, but that could change with some new neighbors.

I also think there are a lot of better things to get worked up about than this development.  In the end, the difficulty of selling these at this price, location and design may solve the problem.

I have never been to a bustling main street in any city, anywhere in the world, that has developments like this on it.

Used to be this wouldn't happen simply because of "natural use" patterns and such.  But in todays car culture, developing almost from scratch, which is what we are kind of doing here, traditional pedestrian/transit friendly areas is, well, not going to be natural.  We almost have to work backwards at it and "take old main street type areas apart" so to speak in order to see how they tick, and then put in zoning and such to try to encourage new ones to emerge.  That is if you even think that we want such things. 

This may right itself, or it may not.  Thing is this isn't the only such situation that is happening or will happen downtown. Urban 8 is breaking up 3rd street. That possible new development in the Blue Dome that I like, looks like there is a parking garage facing the property where I think the Brickhugger LLC group is doing stuff on the old city property. (sorry have to hurry this morning so can't look up the names lol) If there is not retail entirely wrapping that garage, the other new development may find its looking at an ugly, dead zone garage space. 

Might be ok to face such developments if your in housing.  Helps make for a quieter street.  But you don't want to face or be next to such developments if your retail/restaurant.  Quieter streets don't help those businesses.

It's going to be such a shame if in 15-20 years from now I am saying "I told ya so".   Cause that is going to mean a lot of people have been hurt and lost money, have worked hard only to have had dashed dreams that could have been avoided. 

This development is being marketed to empty nesters from down south to move to downtown. They may *think* they know what they're getting into but I doubt it. There is just no way these places coexist without complaints from people who feel entitled by their half a million investment.

I agree with hello's and DTowner's comments.

After living in central Tulsa for 25 years, what I've observed is that ordinances here are enforced willy-nilly, not uniformly or fairly.  It doesn't depend what the issue is or what the law is.  Who's complaining is what matters -- and to whom.  It's about personalities, politics, and power, not the actual reasonable/ethical enforcement of codes.  Money talks...

I live near downtown, in a neighborhood with many houses and apartments, plus a few offices and retail businesses.  It's been that way since the 1920s, if not longer.  A few years ago, I had a neighbor who purchased a house across the street from an apartment building, then started relentlessly complaining about it.  Fact is, she and her husband didn't like apartment buildings.  Yet, they bought a house across the street from an apartment building that had been there for decades.

They griped and griped and griped and griped and griped until the City Council changed the zoning in the neighborhood to single family residential, even though some of us were satisfied with the way it was.  After the couple finally got their way, they moved from Tulsa.  I've heard that they divorced.  In retrospect, I think they were perpetually unhappy.  For some reason, they hated apartment buildings, as they announced at neighborhood association meetings on numerous occasions.

So, yes, I can easily foresee people buying apartments at the Davenport -- then bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching about the noise in the neighborhood.


Again, I agree.  In my opinion, the dwelling units are too deep, with windows too far from the major living spaces.  The surrounding views (and potential problem of noise) at that particular location downtown are not worth the asking price.

There are thousands of developments like this in NYC, SanFran, Chicago, and other bustling streetsastreetsall over the world.  In many neighborhoods in SanFran, buildings like this are the norm. Then on the corners there is ground floor retail.

I'm not sure you can support constant ground floor retail with 4-5 story development. In Manhattan with 30 story development - sure. But that's not Tulsa.

Not every building will have ground floor retail and a rock bottom price.

Yes you do see this type of development in other cities, and ones that have bustling sidewalks.  What I meant was that you don't see this type of development on your Main Streets or "King/Queen/High" streets, smack dab in the middle of your shopping/dining/entertainment corridors. 

It's a truism that "If you try to make all your streets "A" streets (pedestrian lively), none of them will be."  Even in NYC, Paris, London, etc. there are plenty of streets, actually most of them really, that are mostly quiet with only a few pedestrians.  People filter on to the main corridors near transit and along streets with a high concentration of shops, restaurants, etc. I have never seen something like this along those types of streets.

I understand that the plan is now to have locally owned retail on the Main Street building front , and that the entrance to the parking parage will be on the side of the building.  Also the developers said that there were plans to include some smaller units, and that those would be announced in the next few weeks

Excellent!

Will they be installing a "Poor Door" like in NYC? 

Can you expand on what a "Poor Door" is, not familiar with the term? Do you mean like controlled access doors?

Google "poor door" and a million hits will show up.  Here's an example.  Also, to be clear, I was making a joke.

http://www.npr.org/2014/07/30/336322608/new-york-skyscrapers-separate-poor-door-sparks-outrage

Well, that's the problem then. What are the "A" streets? Because we are plopping in various developments everywhere downtown with retail, without retail, midrise, low rise, etc. I don't think the City has ever told a developer "this would be better off here" or "please don't tear down any more buildings TCC."

For the most part, our organic development has actually gone very well. The Hampton, (what I cal)l Tribune II, and the revamped TU/Philbrook/Woody renovations all fit in very well with the area - through no doing of our city planners, zoning, or TDA. Just blind luck.

I'd say we have mini "A streets" along Boston from 7th to 4th (arguable to the plaza at 3rd), along 2nd from City Hall (cinci) to Legends, and along the intersection of Brady and Main +/- 3 blocks. Even arguably along Greenwood and down 1st (most of the Bluedome). Hell, those areas are developing really well actually. But again, I assert it is sans planning.

All that said, I think the proposed lofts will bring more life and potential to the area than the current empty lot. In that there are more empty lots at the moment than proposed developments, I hope they can make some adjustments, fit in better with the neighborhood, and thrive! Even if one apartment block had no ground floor retail, the traffic too and from Cains/Pistol/Pony/new bar (sorry) would still drive the area.

[I'm ignoring the conflict of loud drunk people/bands and potential wealthy semi-retired persons, that's a separate issue]

Has anyone heard anything about these? I see they changed the floorplan options to include some 1040 ft2 options which I really like (seems to better allow for demographics which would want to buy in to the Brady district). Although the price is now starting at $320k (they say 1200ft2 including the balcony) so basically still aiming at a more premium demographic. It would be great if they could get that into the $200's so they could get younger owners who would be more likely to be happy being next door to a music hot spot.

I hope they idea gets completed although it would be nice if they could be built somewhere else not so close to the Sound Pony. There is a huge empty lot just west of there which seems like a better spot.

It seems that the Davenports Lofts have been redesigned.

(http://www.davenportlofts.com/images/renderings/dav_rendering_800.jpg)

http://www.davenportlofts.com/index.php/building (http://www.davenportlofts.com/index.php/building)

(https://geo0.ggpht.com/cbk?cb_client=maps_sv.tactile&authuser=0&hl=en&output=thumbnail&thumb=2&panoid=CMVNan_p5QrDooxqVcwDQg&w=345&h=170&yaw=78.02443574187168&pitch=10.957434550414305&ll=36.1604335,-95.9948034)

Seems large for that spot.  Are they taking out the storage buildings to the South?

I am guessing it will fit without taking out the storage buildings (if you look closely, you can see them in the rendering). It looks like they tried to build up instead of out, allowing the new driveway to serve as a buffer between their building and Soundpony. If I am not mistaken, the last version filled almost every inch of the lot.

I might be the only one, but I like it. I hope this project happens.

According to the site, it will have top of the line sound deadening tech.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-4xI3_4XO-M0/TyxGQq57UCI/AAAAAAAADaI/iMcjRe87QXY/s1600/Ace+Ventura+12+door.gif)

That is just what you say because you know that you will never show the unit when its loud outside.
Nor will the people working on or designing the building be there when its loud before its complete.

Cool design. Build it somewhere else.

"The Rooftop is a common space with the rare benefit of privacy. It is so downtown."-From their website.

"This neighborhood is probably different than the one you’re moving from. For one thing, there aren’t any backyards. Or fences. (You won’t miss either.) You’ll walk for a coffee in the morning and it won’t be to a Starbucks. Then you’ll walk in the evening for a cocktail - or two, you’re walking! Your new neighborhood is the Brady Arts District, a unique beneficiary of the George Kaiser Family Foundation – and it’s truly amazing.

There’s an urban park called Guthrie Green that has a covered outdoor sound stage and a covered outdoor bistro – and park things, like trees and grass and wisteria vines. In a renovated warehouse across the street there’s the Philbrook Downtown, art galleries and the (now famous) Woody Guthrie Center. In a renovated Ford dealership across another street, there’s an Entrepreneur’s Base Camp and a brewpub with a fireplace and deer head on the wall."

I just...I can't.   :-X :-X :-X Who wrote this?

Weird. The prices have jumped considerably since the first concept. Now they start at $562,000 with most reaching into the $800,000's.

I thought they were on the upper edge of affordability before, but this goes into a completely different bracket. When oil is good, you can find some younger people to buy up $400,000 lofts, but at these prices they really will be for older people.

What strikes me about the design is that they lifted the units up two tall stories so that even the lowest apartments can see over Soundpony's building. The two units closest to Soundpony are the ones at $562,000 while the other side of the building skyrockets in price. They are really stressing the noise attenuation...

So instead of being a building for the richer, hip, young-ish crowd that I was hoping for, it really is turning into more of a luxury building for rich older folks looking to downsize. I'd still expect the people moving in to be moving in partially for the surroundings, but they might be the type to still expect perfect quiet at 9pm. Who knows though, there are lots of older people who like to party, but it only takes one...

What really makes me ponder is that if the south side of the building is worth so much more, what happens when someone else eventually tries to build there? Apparently that would decrease their worth by ~$300,000 if a bar is included?

I guess the Lost Ogle was more on point than I thought. I still think something like this can work in the area, and I want to see more apartments in the Brady, but I'm getting much more pessimistic about this specific project.

Looks attractive to me.  Love all the windows.

Property records say the owner of the nearby lots have not changed since the 1990s. Supports the notion that this is still on the single lot right next to the Pony owned by Omicron Land Development, LLC.

It appears they are taking steps regarding the noise seriously. The~20' buffer of driveway will help, building up will help, and then adding other sound deadening technology. Presumably double (or even triple) pane glass. Better insulation within the walls. Acoustiblok Soundproofing panels (which they say they are using). I don't have the knowledge base to know if that would be enough to basically mitigate an inside concert at the Pony or not? But they sure on trying to put minds at ease.

Th building itself looks great. The amenities are amazing:

- Sweet rooftop with fire pit, grills, kitchen, and semi private areas to reserve
- indoor bike parking
- dog park in the back
- indoor parking (ramp)
- ground floor retail

I hesitate to criticize someone else's project on price point. My gut tells me more mid-range housing is needed, but the margin is better on high-end. I assume they know more than I do on what will sell...

If they don't mess with the Pony, this is a great add.

New design looks awesome.  I question if they can sell at that price point given the struggles of Urban 8, which gives you a 4 story townhome at roughly the same price.  That said, Urban 8 is monolothic and black while this is brick and right in the middle of everything. 

I live above the new Prairie brewpub and it gets pretty loud from the Hunt Club / Soundpony / Inner Circle on a Friday or Saturday night, not nearly so much the rest of the week.  That said, I think the noise is awesome and would be super sad if it went away.  Hopefully whoever can afford these lofts thinks the same way and jams out on their balcony throwing Mardi Gras beads to the partiers below.

There were lots of expensive condos/lofts on 6th and 5th street when I lived in Austin right in the middle of that nightlife scene which is x1,000 what's in the Brady District. 

I do wonder what will be on the bottom three floors if the residential units start at floor 4.

the parking garage for the tenants.

How could anyone really be opposed to this, aside from the driveway part of it. I am also assuming there is at least some comercial space on the ground floor. And if not, how is this not part of the code to build in that area. When I first saw the rendering, particularly the first two floors along Main, this is what I though of.

(http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/1/df/1dfedc85-61f7-502e-86c6-3238a7b13169/523de4597db1a.image.jpg)

The upper floors are decidedly more modern but if built to this rendering is perfectly acceptable. And as much as everyone gripes at prices and wants a place "they can afford", this is how it works. You missed the chance to get a bargain when the Brady District wasn't a cool place to be. It already is a desirable location, and there is an extremely limited amount of land to develop on, of course they are going to swing for the fences. Whether they get it or not is another story. Time will tell.

The area between this building and Cameron (on either side of Main) have got to be some of the most valuable in the area. Too bad Channel 6 completely deactivated their little stretch of Cameron & Boston.

Will the tenants be OK with the lines from Cains before shows?
I think this is a great idea and building but struggle with the price ranges and that "one" person that may not like the lines, music, people being loud at 1:45am leaving the bars, etc.

Sounds a lot like airport syndrome.  People move in next to an airport and then complain about the airplanes.  The usual result is that the airport changes its landing patterns or becomes a shopping center.  It's all "progress". 

Yep.
Same with amusement parks...

Just not a smart move to build $500K + condos in an area with multiple music venues and bars.

It is a nice looking design and I hope purchasable condos go in the Brady soon. It would be great if they could make them more affordable and even better if they could be further away from those venues but this is the place they have. This will be the first owned residential units in the Brady so people are likely opposed to the NIMBY'ism which will come from a bunch of high-end condo owners who will suddenly feel entitled about the area and keeping "their neighborhood" clean and eventually quiet. It would be ridiculous if someone moved next to SoundPony and then complained but as others mention, it is the kind of thing people have been doing for a long time.

I wonder if the City of Tulsa could ever make some sort of "venue district" designation for certain places/areas to allow these businesses to operate with loud music even late, even if citizens call in to complain. Is that something that has ever been done or is it feasible?

This is a massive improvement over the previous design.  Actually, it would be one of the best designs I've seen of any new construction in downtown Tulsa--strictly from an urban design standpoint.  Lots of transparency on the ground floor, opportunity to have at least a couple retail storefronts (wish it were 4, but looks like two) with different uses, parking hidden, good use of windows above, decent proportions, respectful of the historic buildings (definitely a nod to the old Tribune building). (Bonus points for not sticking a stupid green turret on the corner of the roof.)

A quick google measurement shows they have about 140' of frontage to work with.  If each of those "storefront" blocks is about 25 feet (which is compatible with traditional storefronts), then their building would be somewhere in the vicinity of 100' wide on Main street, plus space for the driveway.  Of course, this is a total guess, and they probably are larger than that... because we've supersized everything in America.

The only downside is that the Cain's sign will be obscured from the south.  But it would still be visible from Main street.

I'm actually impressed.  Now if they can only build the thing and find enough rich people to live there and not destroy the cool factor that Cains, Soundpony and others have developed in that area.

If all else fails, I agree: take that design and stick it somewhere else downtown.  It's good.

What's the current ordinance related to bars and live music?  Presumably, if there are any rules about what time the music has to stop, these establishments would be grandfathered in, and should not be impacted by the addition of residential next door.  (It's different if you put a bar next to an existing house, than if a residence moves next to an existing bar.)

The City of Tulsa Ordinance against noise is as follows:

"It shall be an offense for any person to willfully or maliciously disturb the public peace or quietude or the life, health or safety of any individual in any manner, by creating any noise of such character or duration so to be unreasonably loud or disturbing, including but not limited to the following:

The playing of any radio, phonograph or musical instrument in any manner or in such volume, particularly during the hours between 11:00 p.m. and 7:00 a.m., so as to unreasonably disturb the quiet, comfort or repose of any person in any dwelling, hotel or other type of residence"

You have to think that anyone purchasing one of these will be fully aware of what this neighborhood is.

Yes, one would think that anyone purchasing a Davenport unit would be fully aware of what the neighborhood is:

1. Often noisy at night; and
2. A place where Tulsa's noise ordinance is in effect, but not enforced.

And one would think that anyone with enough money to purchase a Davenport unit might be able to request that the current noise ordinance be enforced, as in any other neighborhood in Tulsa.

Everybody says that at first.  Then they live there and it gets annoying.

Maybe not everybody, but it only takes one person with enough money/power/influence or whatever to prod the City to enforce its nuisance ordinance.

The people that pretend to like dull bass sounds in their bedroom at 1 am are full of smiles.

I agree, and I can easily see Davenport tenants demanding that Tulsa's noise ordinance be enforced in their neighborhood -- and prevailing.

I'm glad Davenport is taking the extra steps to reduce noise. Glad they are being proactive about the situation.The redesign is beautiful. 
But it's not a question of if someone will complain, it's a question of when. It will happen, and it will hurt the businesses that took a chance on the Brady and made it the place it is today. Having places like Cain's, Soundpony (not just a bar with music, they are supporters of community, look at what Tulsa Tough has become), etc are what keep people here.

Let's not be like Austin.

http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/836-the-crisis-of-gentrification-hits-the-austin-music-scene/ (http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/836-the-crisis-of-gentrification-hits-the-austin-music-scene/)

That's coming.  It is already coming to the point that if you want in downtown you have to have big money backing you. At least anywhere near entertainment districts.  I'm wondering where the next place is going to be that the small guy can make cool so money can take over.

Yes, almost certainly someone will complain, about the noise, or about the gentrification, or about the potential gentrification, or about the lack of development, or about too much development, or about the type of development, or about the lack of parking, or about too much parking, or whatever...

In one of the many under-utilized areas of Tulsa.  Gentrification is the usual result in such places.  We'll see ...

The folks with money follow the energy generated by creative folks that have taken the risk that folks with money either won't take or are too conservative too take.

It is why fostering the creative class is so important.  But, many people have it wrong.  It isn't the YP that you have to attract, you have to attract and keep the artist or the creative that will attract the YP that will attract the older folks with money.  Then gentrification happens and the artist moves to another part of town and the cycle re-starts.  In my nearly 15 years in Tulsa it has roughly been Cherry St -> Brookside -> Blue Dome -> Brady.  What's next?  Pearl?  Kendall Whittier?

Part of the difference is the city with huge backing from civic leaders (ie GKFF) picked the latest winner when they invested heavily in the Brady District.  That investment sped up the gentrification (if you want to call it that) by at least a decade.  No other place in Tulsa, save the neighborhoods around TGP, will see see that kind of rapid growth and appreciation of property value.

Westin in Austin builds next to loud music venue, then sues loud music venue for being a loud music venue.  The risk is real.  Says that they spend an extra $2 million to protect from sound and it doesn't work.  The location of this is just a really, really bad idea.

http://keyetv.com/news/local/hotel-built-next-to-austins-historic-music-district-files-lawsuit-over-loud-music

The article mentions negative reviews because of noise complaints...so I went and looked.  They have 4.5 stars on Google, dozens of 1 star reviews as backlash for suing a local music venue. I didn't check other ratings services, and if you read enough reviews I'm sure you could find the negative ones.  But ouch, the backlash hurts.

They have put the manager in a tough spot. If the noise is really hurting business, he has to try to address it. Then again, if the music venue is not breaking any ordinances and the hotel knew exactly what they were getting into when it was built - hard to blame the venue. They are in a district with specific ordinances allowing outdoor music until 2 AM, with a history of live music, and that is a tourist draw because they have live music.  So you build a hotel next to it, then complain because you didn't understand what now?

The hotel asked the city to investigate, so they did:


http://www.bizjournals.com/austin/news/2016/12/29/downtown-austin-hotel-sues-sixth-street-venue-over.html

A good summary of this article, which discusses how SF passed an ordinance basically saying an existing music venue cannot be considered a nuisance if it is within ordinances:
http://www.austinchronicle.com/music/2015-11-27/playback-agents-of-change-downtown-clubs-vs-downtown-hotels/


Davenport Lofts website shows 9 reserved lofts, and 15 available after a good while of pre-sale (http://www.davenportlofts.com/index.php/availability).  With the addition of a years long construction project and eventual hope of the POP Museum, as well as parking garage, recording studio, and brewery on the same street...  I'm surprised they aren't reconsidering the spot for $800k condos.  

I like the development (even the name is awesome) and I hope they do well.  Hopefully they find a better home OR build it as planned and their noise reduction plans work as promised.  And, of course, the wealthy residents accept the fact that they moved within a block of 2 breweries, a few bars, several music venues, and a museum that is hopefully vibrant all the time--- all attracting a wide array of people for a wide array of hours.  I really hope they work out, because they seem awesome and I want one (anyone have $800k I can borrow, forever and not pay back?):

http://www.davenportlofts.com/index.php/res

Here's what I think will happen if the Davenport is built:  Some if not most people who purchase apartments there will regret it, then they'll start complaining endlessly, in an attempt to change the status quo.  They will put pressure on the existing bars and music venues to quiet down, to close earlier, or to leave the area.  The Davenport owners will complain to the police and to elected City officials.   Most likely, the Davenport owners will eventually get what they want -- a quieter neighborhood.
 

I suspect the price difference between the north and south units has more to do with the south units having views of downtown than with the north units' proximity to a bar.  (and there's no $300,000 price difference; the south units are also larger.)

What have we learned about $800K condos so far in downtown?  They don’t sell.  If you have a unit on the north side of The Davenport, your view is a few rooftops, the IDL, and vacant land north of that.  While the south view of the downtown skyline would be preferable this is nowhere like the view from a condo in Manhattan, Miami Beach, or Vail Village.

People with $800K to spend in the Tulsa market are looking for something with a lawn, some space from their neighbors, and most likely a suburban school district or a private school.  If they have school-age children they likely do want something with a yard.

JMO, People who live in Tulsa and have $800K to spend on a condo would most likely be looking at a condo as a second home on a beach or in the mountains.

Agreed, and the fact that they have been marketing this for almost 2 years and have barely more than 1/3 "reserved" (whatever that might mean), suggests this project is not likely to happen.

"People with $800K to spend in the Tulsa market are looking for something with a lawn, some space from their neighbors, and most likely a suburban school district or a private school.  If they have school-age children they likely do want something with a yard."

I concur that the $800K mark was too high for downtown at this point. But I want to point out that you don't need all "people with $800K to spend" to want an urban lifestyle. Just a few. If we have 500 people in that market (I don't know if that is too high or too low), only 10-25 need to have a strong preference for urban living for this experiment to work. Maybe there are not 10-25 such people, but it could be a small minority of rich people and still support high end condo living downtown.

Indeed most of the boom in downtown living is still a minority preference. Most renters live in non-urban areas outside downtown. But those few renters willing to pay a bit extra to live downtown still create demand. Now, a few developers are looking for the small minority of owners who want to own downtown. We'll see how they do. I suspect $800K won't work. But $400K for 10-25 people might work.

And the higher the price that works, the more developers will flock to create more housing downtown. That's at least a little reason to cheer for success on high end downtown living.

Kind of like building next to an airport and then complaining about airplane noise.  Or, building next to the Fairgrounds (in Tulsa) and complaining about the stock car races on Saturday nights.

Some day, $800K condos might be realistic albeit with a limited demand so long as you had plenty of “starter” stock in the first place to get people accustomed to the urban lifestyle where they could acclimate to something larger as their family and income grows.

If you haven’t caught this in my previous posts: I moved into a studio in Center Plaza Apartments (now Central Park Condos) in 1987 when I was 21.  I was perfectly good with no maintenance responsibilities, spartan furnishings, and no yard.  Even with incredibly limited night life and few dinner choices I loved the urban experience.  There was still a Homeland store within walking distance.  If i needed to file a small claims case (I worked for a finance company at the time) or go to the library, that was convenient as well and did not require a car.  We had a dry cleaner drop off, gym, bar, and possibly even a hair salon in Center Plaza back then so there were some amenities to make it as convenient as possible.  A year or so later, I got married and needed more space.  We moved to a 1 bedroom further up in the building.  It worked great for our needs for awhile.

I believe the real impetus to purchase a home was the adage we were throwing money away on rent and not gaining any equity, plus thinking we might have kids in the near future.  By mid 1989 most of the HUD surplus was gone as well as any steals on a multi bed condo at Liberty Towers but condos still had a stigma after the bust of the mid ’80’s.  I’d always liked the brick gingerbread homes along 15th St. and that’s what we eventually bought.  I liked the idea of having a garden, etc. but if 1989 downtown Tulsa had been like 2016 downtown Tulsa it’s entirely possible we might have looked at buying something and staying in the IDL and buying something larger as our family and income grew.  There just was not anything practical to move on to at the time within downtown.

So, I do believe if you have a broad range of condos and apartments you can fill the bigger ticket ones if there was a good enough stock of lower priced ones to help build the demand for later in life.  Tulsa’s problem is, not many of us have been exposed to the urban lifestyle by actually living in the urban core like people in Manhattan or Boston grew up with. With few exceptions, if you grow up with a suburban orientation, your tendency is likely to move further from the core as your family and income expand.

Had things turned out different, I might move back to the downtown area some day but a business opportunity out in NE New Mexico has pretty well put  that possibility to rest.  My wife and I feel bittersweet about leaving with the dawn of a new Mayoral administration which seems to appreciate orderly development and how well Tulsa’s urban core is coming together.  These are exciting times for Tulsa and for those of us who dreamed for decades of what it could be and how we could be a part of it.

That demand for $400 to $800K dwellings in the IDL and near there will come eventually.  Whether it’s 5, 10, or 20 years down the line is anyone’s guess.

For less than half the $800k you can find a high end 2 bed 3 bath condo in downtown Phoenix that's between the ball park and the arena where the Suns play, near Comerica Theater, Hard Rock and downtown entertainment district. These are not fire sale units either.

http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Phoenix-AZ/fsba,fsbo_lt/condo_type/81952567_zpid/40326_rid/globalrelevanceex_sort/33.458137,-112.052715,33.434647,-112.083914_rect/14_zm/0_mmm/ (http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Phoenix-AZ/fsba,fsbo_lt/condo_type/81952567_zpid/40326_rid/globalrelevanceex_sort/33.458137,-112.052715,33.434647,-112.083914_rect/14_zm/0_mmm/)

http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Phoenix-AZ/fsba,fsbo_lt/condo_type/81952509_zpid/40326_rid/globalrelevanceex_sort/33.458424,-112.056148,33.434933,-112.087348_rect/14_zm/0_mmm/ (http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Phoenix-AZ/fsba,fsbo_lt/condo_type/81952509_zpid/40326_rid/globalrelevanceex_sort/33.458424,-112.056148,33.434933,-112.087348_rect/14_zm/0_mmm/)

Or you can live near the Biltmore area........

http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Phoenix-AZ/fsba,fsbo_lt/condo_type/71605664_zpid/40326_rid/globalrelevanceex_sort/33.52349,-112.012932,33.500017,-112.044132_rect/14_zm/0_mmm/ (http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Phoenix-AZ/fsba,fsbo_lt/condo_type/71605664_zpid/40326_rid/globalrelevanceex_sort/33.52349,-112.012932,33.500017,-112.044132_rect/14_zm/0_mmm/)

As someone in that neighborhood, the new thing this year was complaining about Safari Joe's Tuesday Night music the first few weeks of the summer.

But yeah, the bees have migrated into town for the next month or so as chili bowl marches on :)

Zombie thread but relevant.

They "know what they are getting into"... Yup

http://www.newson6.com/story/37989570/jane-fest-coming-to-blue-dome-district

"“It is a neighborhood and it is evolving and there will be more housing in here over time, so there are other places to conduct something that will go until 2 a.m.,” said Steve Ganzkow, from American Residential Group."

Yeah, other places that are right outside the places that have this stuff that goes on until 2 am.

That is ridiculous. And this opposition is from an apartment complex that is likely a much younger crowd than would be in the Davenport Lofts (aimed at rich retirees).

Besides the Blue Dome District, where else would something like this be? In a huge empty field somewhere? Protesting a festival in the Blue Dome is about as ridiculous as protesting the smell of pizza on Cherry Street.

Speaking of this old zombie thread, does anyone know if it's still happening? 

3 years later and this link shows 12 of 24 reserved:http://davenportlofts.com/index.php/availability (http://davenportlofts.com/index.php/availability)

I'm guessing it's not going to happen at this point, but maybe they'll find a way. They seem pretty passionate about it and put a lot of money into marketing it for years.

Interesting snippet from an article about the Hanson project in the Brady Arts District:


So the Davenport Lofts is moving forward after all? That has been a long time coming!

Site currently says:

Word is that groundbreaking is soon...

Good to hear! I'm hoping eventually the sound stuff sorts itself out (The Yeti closed to turn to restaurant so that's taken care of), mostly by the fact that the demographics moving here will want to be near nightlife. I'm hoping the owners just buy into the fact that Sound Pony and Inner Circle etc will be noisy and just deal with it. If they want quiet, just about any residential neighborhood would do, or just rent in the Deco District.

I noticed they were jack-hammering pavement last weekend.

This is the rendering on their website.  Looks like it will be taller than the current tallest buildings (Tribune Lofts and Metro at Brady) in the Arts District.

(http://www.davenportlofts.com/templates/yootheme/cache/bldg_updated_1200-0230ec89.jpeg)

If it gets built, that will be the best looking new construction downtown in decades.

I like that they're literally breaking ground.

That rendering looks awesome. I like the touches of Art Deco style trim above the windows. Let's all hope it gets built just like that. Ground floor retail. Parking Garage. High end residential condos  individuals can own. Despite all the activity and improvement in the Arts District, this spot is surrounded by empty lots and bleakness in most directions: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1603029,-95.9947594,3a,75y,74.49h,91.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spMWSmWwitzYzsxlSxFq0WQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1603029,-95.9947594,3a,75y,74.49h,91.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spMWSmWwitzYzsxlSxFq0WQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)

It could really use this as a boost. Excited to see what the Hansons have planned next to it.

There's a lot of site work going on there today. It's definitely moving.

You also have OKPop that will be going up nearby.  Really need to get that grassy lot developed across the street.  I think the city is thinking about putting a parking lot on the Meadow Gold lot.

I had assumed high cost and low interest in the project had stalled it into non existence.  This explains why they wouldn't renew the Yeti and are refusing to open another bar concept in there.  Sound Pony has a lease for a few more years.  Then I'm sure they will go as well.

If Soundpony has to leave (I’m hoping they stay) I would think they would probably find another location around Brady.  The next frontier is west of Boulder where there hasn’t been any new development and it’s still pretty industrial.

I know that the pony has a lease fore  few more years at least.  That said, shows 4-5 times a week will be peanuts compared to the constant highway noise from 244.


Speaking of, having a building that tall in the foreground of downtown from 244 will be an interesting adjustment.

I can't imagine the noise from Sound Pony would be any more significant than a show night at the Cain's and I doubt the Cain's is going anywhere.

I did see where Josh and Mike have opened the Whittier Bar at Admiral and Lewis.  Looking forward to checking that out next trip back to Tulsa.

More confirmation that the project is happening and some details on the condos:


https://www.tulsaworld.com/business/high-rise-condominiums-coming-to-tulsa-arts-district-near-cain/article_f3ba64a3-21d9-5ee7-9e21-cdb640905927.html?fbclid=IwAR2TALbedcF9kmwgCJ44Ha6MsGTVOBdHog08FSFaepKtf6OskO7ILmrp8iE

That's good news. I hear people still offended who believe the Sound Pony will shut down because of this. I highly doubt that. Even then, what's the real loss? Harder to find your cocaine hookup?

There would be huge uproar if the high income professionals and baby boomers move in and try to force Sound Pony out. I don't see the code enforcers siding with the people who moved in to an area known for being a noisy concert district. You'd have to be an absolute moron to buy a $600k-$800k condo right there and expect that entitles you to peace and quiet (or completely misled). Maybe that's their market/sales strategy though?

I saw they have this acoustic chamber to put your head in at the sales office to show how quiet the sound proofing material they'll use is. That in no way reflects the reality of having that stuff in the walls on a big building. You can have that acoustic all around, but sound will make its way through any gaps or windows from your or any neighboring units. Also, vibrations can shake the foundation, walls and anything not secured. They'd have to make the entire room completely sealed with that for it to work close to as well as that display setup.

Regardless, this is a necessary part of making the Arts District a real community with permanent neighbors. The new residents will need to adjust and the neighborhood might have to change some things to accommodate them. Good they're adding 2 spots per unit, but I do home some can/will go car-less. Hopefully there's an incentive to go without 2 spots.

A couple interesting parts of the article:


Yikes! Only 30 percent!? That is quite a massive risk. Better hope you sell more or have some sort of plan to finish and lease any unsold units. That would be about 22 units needing to be sold. Seems ambitious to break ground already, but I respect the courage to move forward! I hope it is in fact done by 2020, but I doubt they'll sell anytime soon (Why aren't the renderings at least listed on MLS like other urban developments?). This seems like Urban 8, but much bigger scale.



Sounds like she missed the whole point of the protest (to protect Cain's and Sound Pony from being shut down due to noise complaints). Has nothing to do with being against change. And the reasons for concern haven't changed a bit. I'm guessing most people just assumed it wasn't happening considering how many years it's been.

Also they think they were the first to "do some development up here"? In the Brady Arts District!?! How about David Sharp, the guy who bought in decades ago and was the biggest part of the revitalization? The Archer Flats, the Fox Hotel, the Marriot, the Metro, etc etc all beat them by years... Maybe they're referring to that specific lot or the empty lots right around it and then yes maybe that's true, but a very arbitrary feat to award themselves. Although there have been plans mentioned about things around there going back a while.

I'm going to go find the most desolate spot of a well-established downtown district and call myself the first to say let's develop there! I propose building lofts by the greyhound bus station! I'd be the first to say let's develop there! A real trailblazer in the Blue Dome District!

Sooooo, I can definitely see both sides to the arguements about the Davenport impact. On one hand, although there's really not that much particularly special about Soundpony, it is one of the few places in DT Tulsa you can just pop in and be part of the "scene". There are cheap drinks, young people, and all kinds of interesting music that flows through there. DT Tulsa has a lot of new things and a lot of big shiny things, but unless you want to do a big ticket item like a dinner or see a major show at Cains/Brady/PAC/BOK, there's not a lot of places left to go out on the town. Maybe I need to be shown where the scene has moved to, but you pretty much just have Fur shop, the weird unicorn night club, club majestic (if you swing that way), soundpony, and the Hunt Club. Maybe a few other places have live music occasionally to varying degrees. Places like Yeti did indeed have their problems, but the music scene there was tight. If you want a truly vibrant downtown scene and culture, you can't just have places that require a ticket for entry.

If the people buying these $600,000 condos end up having complaints about sound enforcement, then there's no way code enforcement sides with existing establishments (not including Cain's). Money always wins. No more late night outdoor music... It can always be moved "elsewhere".

Their interviews that were published today give me little hope that they will not be exactly what most assumed when the development was announced: arrogant and entitled,with a dash of cluelessness.

If we fill an empty lot with a new mid rise building with for-sale condos why does it matter who the developers are?

You would think so, but....


100% this. I predict with 95% certainty that there will be noise complaints and the rich complainers will win. I would bet a dozen pizzas on it. Whether it's in the first year or the fifth year, or the tenth, it's going to happen. Guaranteed. To be clear, I'm not arguing this as a reason to block the development, as I'm unaware of any legal recourse to stop it, but the idea that this will certainly happen bugs the crap out of me.

I certainly understand why Sound Pony is so heralded in the local scene and do think it's a local treasure/dive bar. I think there's quite a few places as easy or easier to hang out at including Inner Circle across the street. Fassler, Cellar Dweller and Open Container fit that  type of scene pretty well too. I'm more of a fan of breweries which are top notch places to relax without any ticket and without as much noise or drunkeness (and more cleanliness!). For bars, I prefer places a bit nicer like Valkyrie, Mixco or Saturn Room but don't really go to bars anymore.

I hope the town rallies behind Sound Pony to keep it alive and also Inner Circle. Cain's will be safe. That would be ludicrous for them to go after Cain's.

Let's see if they can even get the condos sold at a price that makes this feasible first. 30% sold won't even pay for getting it up and roofed, much less any part finished.

As a tenant, noise from 244 will be more persistent.  I believe we are all speculating a good deal too much about Sound Pony going anywhere as a result of this construction.

Isn’t 30% pre-sells the typical requirement to get financing?  Given the struggles of Urban 8 and the price points of these units, if it were my money I would want commitments on closer to 50% before breaking ground.

I am honestly mystified that people seem to shoot for that price point.  I get that new construction is expensive, but the universal aim for Urban Luxury seems total counter intuitive to me.

Regardless of what the requirement is, I'd be wary moving forward with just 30% sold after 4 years if I were the ones whose financials are tied to this, especially considering Urban 8 and the other 2-story condos for sell near the BOK Center. I'm not convinced Tulsa is much a of a condo town and Cherry Street seems to have that market cornered and has a better walkability rating.

I'm wondering if the ability to sprawl so far out and availability of such cheap real estate all over has partially ruined the potential for urban condos (for some reason we just haven't had any while cities like Little Rock and flat lil Des Moines have far more!). Not to mention so many areas close to downtown are still ripe for development at such low prices. Then you have the extremely nice townhomes east of downtown available around $250-$500k. $600k+ is getting up there with condo pricing in some of the higher priced downtown condos in significantly larger cities. Yes, there's virtually no supply in the IDL, but that doesn't mean there will ever exist that much demand. This should be nick-named the Urban 32 as it is like the Urban 8 times 4.

I hope it does well and sells fast and that I'm proven wrong in this, but seems like these developers are not learning anything from similarly priced Urban 8 (which are in a better, quieter, more-developed location and are extremely awesomely designed, huge mostly stand-alone units with amazing private balconies and garage parking). With all of that, they recently only sold for around $600k, after being on the market for 5+ years. They claim they did their "research" in other cities, but I can go to any city on zillow and find comparable downtown condos in terms of size and how nice for far lower price points.

It looks like they should be aiming for ~$400k for the smaller 1,700 units, just to keep in line with the markets of KC or Dallas. I'll call it now that they won't sell most of the units in the next few years and they'll either have to reconfigure to get below $400k or it'll fail and they'll get stuck and need some sort of default/bankruptcy agreement to get some other company to finish it.

I agree. It's maddening. They're aiming for the top 1% or so who are well covered with amazing housing options all around. Do they think those people will risk throwing away so much for such a risky investment/development? Every person buying in risks losing everything they put in if it doesn't get finished. But I guess some can be thankful the Urban 8 developer lost a lot of money to provide a few select lucky people with amazing living options right there. The same might happen here.

I didn't have time to read the article earlier.  Who are the developers and do they have prior development experience?  The developer of Urban 8 had prior experience as a car dealer which might have something to do with the swing and miss on Urban 8.  We can study other urban areas to death but Tulsa has always been a pretty unique place which seems to consistently contradict what works in other areas.

Put this same tower in midtown and it would likely sell out at those price points.  Something by Utica Square or over by existing condo towers around 21st & Riverside.  Downtown especially in this location is just sort of an unproven market for high end mid-rise condos. 

I look at how this area has changed so much in the past decade and see a lot of potential upside though to being the first to develop something like this there.  Same for Urban 8, they seem like a gamble now but probably won’t in 5 years.

I agree Urban 8 will likely seem like a steal in 5 years and at $600k, they got a tremendous value even now, but the developer started selling them over 5 years ago at $875 and almost certainly lost a lot of money on that.  It took 5 years, listing with multiple different realtors to sell 4-5 of them. A few are still owned by developers and the original developer.

I just feel like if there was a market for $600k-$800k high end multi-unit condos downtown, more of those people might've come forward with more than 10 of 32 units sold by now. They barely just sold Urban 8s for that. That's going to be extremely expensive to find that out after it's built, but I do like the boldness of the plan.

Shovels in ground will help sales tremendously.

I think the $600K Urban 8 units were partially unfinished, so the move-in price was higher.

In the past I assumed that the problem with selling downtown condos was the lack of customers willing to take a chance on buying when there are plenty of options to test the waters of urban living by renting.  However, it seems the downtown residential scene is now mature enough that there should be a customer base for buying, yet the condo market is struggling, even as limited as the options are.  Perhaps the majority of upper income empty nesters looking to downsize to a condo see Utica Place, Yorktown or 2300 Riverside as much safer investments.

That's where I would build my condo tower if I was in a position to do that.  Existing options (comps) but all of those except Utica Place are outdated so new construction could likely fetch pretty high prices in that neighborhood.  The problem would be finding the land for the right price (their cost basis is much lower on Main downtown) and neighborhood opposition to anything tall.  There was an uproar over the 20 story Portofino Tower proposed at 21st & Main in 2000, though I think the telecom bust/recession in 2001 actually killed that one.

(https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/6/14/614da2ec-8bdf-5774-92cd-a0cc53b94d98/5bc53cf9342f3.image.jpg)

That’s funny, I drove by that still undeveloped lot this morning on my way to work and thought about the Portofino project and what might have been.

I think it would’ve fit in there.  Looks similar in some ways to Utica Place.  Surprised it’s taken so long for Paul Coury to develop those empty lots.

It didn't help for Urban 8. Or for 100 Boulder.

But the Urban 8 were also free-standing structures with their own garages and ~3,400 square feet (double what Davenport's $600k  units are!). Finishing them out was supposed to be around $60-$120k. Still far far less for far more house and amenities.

There is virtually no demand for high priced Downtown living. Look at this stand-alone home that was for sell for over 2 years and finally sold for around $100/sq-ft:
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/208-S-Guthrie-Ave-Tulsa-OK-74103/2101119128_zpid/ (https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/208-S-Guthrie-Ave-Tulsa-OK-74103/2101119128_zpid/)

That place was incredibly nice. The location by the BOK isn't ideal, but still it was an incredible deal for $100/square foot, and it sold right around the time when real estate prices peaked. That is a really bad sign for condos trying to sell for $400/square foot that thousands of people passed up on that place for years at far less than half the price per square foot.

To me, that location is horrible.  I'd hate to look across the street and see that every day.

I'd hate to look out and see all the empty desolate lots and industrial buildings around Davenport which have been there looking cruddy for decades or the massive highway all around which will be more prominent from above (As shown here: (https://photos.zillowstatic.com/cc_ft_960/ISukbfh9q4tb9f0000000000.webp)).

With how awesome the interior of the house by the BOK Center is and the fact that it's an easy bicycle ride to a huge number of jobs and some of the best entertainment in Tulsa, it is a bad sign they only got $100/square foot for a new build with such high end interior design in the IDL. Nice Houses in the Brady Heights area often get far more than $100/square foot.

That's a tremendous leap expecting $400/square foot, especially when there's blighted lots around that particular spot. You won't have a private 2-lane garage, yard, and it's less than half the size. It's a ludicrous price that fails to consider recent housing sales in the IDL. Also, it seems like a big corporation will eventually come in and build a nice scaled-up condo to capture that market, and they'll probably do it at more reasonable price points.
They do have the listings up on MLS now. $985k for the 2,400 ft2 condo:
https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/2095815820_zpid/globalrelevanceex_sort/36.166168,-95.976713,36.139521,-96.005938_rect/14_zm/ (https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/2095815820_zpid/globalrelevanceex_sort/36.166168,-95.976713,36.139521,-96.005938_rect/14_zm/)

That is outrageous. You can spend less than half that to get a similar sized place in the nicest neighborhoods in Midtown, or double the square footage for same price. I was thinking the most expensive units might be around $800k for 3,000 square feet. It's good to dream, but not to be delusional.


The acoustic walls are only around the master bedrooms, so no leaving the doors open while you sleep and hope the people in the other bedrooms don't mind the noise.

Urban 8's price point was higher and 100 boulder is just not that attractive.  What are the price points on that project and estimated occupancy now?

With the exception of being directly next to the county jail, that might be the single worst location for a house in all of the IDL.  Being the only house for blocks is not really a strong selling point.

Davenport has all sorts of issues in my mind, but high priced apartments downtown have been successful so I don’t think you can say there is no demand for high priced housing.  The issue is getting people to jump from renting to investing long-term as an owner.

I would hate to look out through all that glass and realize what it is doing to the energy bill.!!    R-2 at best...probably worse.

I bet they are LEED certified, too! 

I said "virtually no demand" and was referring to buying. As evidenced by Urban 8 being on the market for over 5 years and Davenport being on the market 4 years. I don't see any demand or offering of high priced housing downtown even close to what the monthly payment on these will be (~$4,500-$6,000/month excluding HOA). There's only 2 units above $3k downtown and they have 2,800 ft2, far more than the 1,700 ft2 you'd get with Davenport units, and aren't even finished yet. There are a few ~$2500 which could be considered high end, but those are about half of what the Davenport monthly payments would be so not even a good comparison.

Considering the current options, the smart choice for those who want to live in luxury places downtown is to rent. $2,000/month for a high end place is far better than a $4,500 mortgage payment for almost the same thing in terms of space and location. Plus you can move in now. Philtower has some amazing well-priced options when available.

Not really, being next to OSU-Medical Center or where Central Park Condos are would be worse and obviously all of NW downtown would be far worse, by all of the homeless day centers, juvenile center and like you said the Jail. Gun Boat District would be worse. Most of South Downtown is worse than that in terms of isolation. You can walk a couple blocks to library and several restaurants. Far better walkability than most of Tulsa and easy walk/bicycle to any downtown job.

208 S Guthrie IS by the Juvenile Justice Center and the Day Center for the homeless. And by DHS and is all of four blocks from OSU Med and the jail. And beyond location it looks like you are living in a converted garage with a lovely view of a massive HVAC plant. And you would have no neighbors and likely never will. I'm actually shocked they got $400k for that.

This is a pretty rad view
(http://www.davenportlofts.com/templates/yootheme/cache/FIREWORKS-052aa36a.jpeg)

And I like the views of the Osage hills to the northwest at least from the higher floors
(https://photos.zillowstatic.com/cc_ft_960/ISukbfh9q4tb9f0000000000.webp)

As a current resident of Renaissance Uptown, what's wrong with being over here near the Central Park Condos?  This is the closest thing downtown has to a residential node.  I can walk to 5th and Boston in 12 minutes.  I can walk to the Cellar Dweller in 2.  I'm 2 blocks from the Library.  This is a great part of Downtown.  If anything, this is the part of downtown that should be better served.  But that's for another thread.

I agree and wish that area was better connected to the rest of downtown.  The area just east of Denver and south of 6th is ripe for additional residential development that complements Renaissance Uptown and Central Park Towers.  Denver Ave is the southern gateway for many to downtown and events at the BOK Center and could use a facelift. I was hoping to see the old Safeway turned into a small grocery store.

That is ridiculous. It is as far from those things as these new condos are from the heart of the Brady or John 3:16. It is actually further away. With that logic, the entire Brady District is right by the Day Center so must be terrible. A stand-alone house there shouldn't even be worth $400k! Obviously, downtown is pretty dynamic in that a few blocks makes a huge difference. That spot isn't great but neither is the condos spot right now.

And yet you think they'll get $985k for a 2,500 square foot condo? Next to a noisy music district and loud highway... They might've found 10 mostly-friends to sign on with this in 4+ years since announcing (They had 9 sold in 2016, so 1 presale in 3 years), but they'll need to drop the prices down to about half of that if they want to sell the rest in the next 4 years.


You also said:

When actually they are $600k, so you were off by a factor of 3 when guessing what the price would be. Maybe you were guessing what the price eventually should be to sell and I'd agree that the smallest units need to be designed around $250k to sell, but the developers went the opposite way, which will almost certainly be a big problem when they need to start paying for unsold condos.

208 S Guthrie is slightly more than one block from the Juvenile Justice Center. The center is on a superblock bounded from Elwood to Guthrie and Archer to 1st with a rail line on the south side of the block along 1st.  One block. And you are the one that defined being next to OSU Med, anywhere in NW downtown and for some unknown reason the Central Park Condos and Gunboat Park as being awful, not me. And myself, I'd be more bothered by the one single block from the Guthrie house to DHS, not the Juvenile Justice Center.

And yes, the distance between 208 S Guthrie and the Juvenile Justice Center is the same distance as the Davenport site to the heart of the Arts District. Again, one block. That would be a plus to the Davenport site. Not to mention the block Davenport is in includes the Cains and will include OKPop by the time the condos are ready.



Well congratulations to you for knowing more than me. Because when I posted that four years ago the developers were stating the condos would be 2,000 square feet at $450,000. $225 a square foot. Can you tell me what half of $450 is? And I wasn't guessing, it was the stated pricing at the time. Now it's starting at $353 a square foot. The math being the smallest condo at $600,000 for 1,700 sq ft.

Don't attribute words to me which I didn't say. I did not say those parts were awful, just that they were worse than the spot where the 4,200 square foot stand-alone house is by the BOK Center. I'd rather live in that spot than those others I mentioned. None are that bad, but that location is ideal for getting to much more key parts of downtown.

Davenport is also the same distance to John 3:16 mission or 1 block from the empty post-apocalyptic-looking wasteland north of I244. So not exactly a great spot either. The stand-alone house is a far better product that was for sale for several years, but they think they'll get quadruple the price based on a bit better location alone?



Once again, you're falsely attributing words to people. They did not say the condos would be $450k. They said "starting at" $450k and listed the range from around 1,600 to 2,600 square feet. The price was never announced to be anywhere close to $200k.

The most expensive units are $985,000 for 2,480 square feet which is right at $400/square foot.

Reading is fundamental.

Conan posted about $450 a square foot. Not $450k. And four years ago they were talking about 2,000 square foot units, not 1,600. So when I told Conan the price was more like half of the $450 s/f he posted, I was correct based on the info at the time.

Since then the prices have gone up and the size of the units have gone down increasing the s/f price

Sheesh.  In the end the value of this house in a neighborhood of one next to the Veolia steam plant (which is very loud at times) was determined by the market, just like the Davenport condos will be.  It seems obvious the house on Guthrie was not widely viewed as desirable.  Given the sluggish sales at Davenport, the market is not giving those a ringing endorsement either.  To me the question is why, in spite of a maturing downtown housing market, there seems to be a general reluctance of folks to buy.  You can nick pick the cost, location or style of every one of the downtown projects, but they all seem to suffer the same underlying problem.  I would like to know the cause, but so far have not found the answer.

This is actually a great little project. To me it seems very similar to The Case Building in Deep Ellum here. A nice mid-rise building in a more grungy part of town. A little more mild that Deep Ellum but still cool, and will add a little bit to the skyline.

This article is about the most expensive apartments in downtown I was referring to (which are still far cheaper than the mortgage on any of the Davenport lofts will be, $4k vs $6k):



https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/michael-overall-luxury-lofts-will-gauge-demand-for-family-housing/article_95b53b08-1112-57c8-bebe-b687cba30a1e.html (https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/michael-overall-luxury-lofts-will-gauge-demand-for-family-housing/article_95b53b08-1112-57c8-bebe-b687cba30a1e.html)

I volunteered for the Dwell in the IDL thing and went on the tour.  In the 111 only one of them was actually 3 bed.  The other was more like 2.5 bed

But my god, would I love to live there if I could.

As an update, All of the concrete that was there before is gone and a construction fence is up.

Progress photo from yesterday. Still not sure how I feel about this, but will be interesting to watch it dominate the streetscape and really tie the Cane's end of the arts district in with everything else.
https://imgur.com/45DCI7d

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48144163397_f2e3c65f0a_h.jpg)
They just finished assembling the crane for the project.

Beautiful photo, so much redevelopment has occurred in that area yet there are still a lot of gaps in the urban fabric.  I love those forested hills in the background.  Now we just need to see UCAT sell off their land west of MLK and homes (re)built on all of those empty lots in Brady Heights..

8/23/19:

Starting to take off.

(https://imgur.com/twIraCw.jpg)

Getting started on second level. Parking levels are pretty short. I think there are three levels of this before they start on the actual loft floors.

(https://imgur.com/K5LForq.jpg)

Thanks for the construction updates! It's always refreshing to see movement on projects, not just a rendering and having to wait a year or so for completion. Keep it up!

Plowing through the second level now.

(https://imgur.com/m9ogveV.jpg)

That last picture really shows how this building is going to dominate this street, it's going to be a lot bigger than I originally imagined!

Not sure if its been mentioned here yet or on another thread, but is it true Soundpony is being forced out?

To this point, nothing but rumors.  But with the partners opening Whittier Lounge, you could suppose there may be a "Plan B" if the 'Pony ever got forced out.  I honestly don't see the Soundpony being any more of a noise issue than I-244 or another night of Bob Wills tributes at the Cain's.

1:30 am last night Pony: "gathering bike frames for a large arbor on back patio"  8) seems like it would be prudent that existing biz's in that area should make a "Sound Statement" such as : these are our decibels "sign here" new tenants adjacent property owners.

Hope that means they see themselves staying longer term. The old Yeti location next door is getting farther along into its transformation. They are working on the outside now.

Davenport has jumped another couple levels since my last photo on this thread. Really starting to look like something now. At the very least, it is certainly a transformation of the streetscape in this area. Still interesting to drive by during the day and see the warehouse next door open and active, right next to this high-class development. 

(https://i.imgur.com/apoc3Sj.jpg)
Latest from last Friday.

I went into Soundpony for the first time in awhile and their entire ceiling has tarps hanging from it. A city permit posted on the next door up from them identifies an apartment build-out project going in directly above the bar. That's obviously going to cause a lot more issues than the people in Davenport. I have to assume/hope it will be occupied by someone associated with the bar? Going to be a noisy place to live, but you'd definitely be in the heart of all the music scene.

(https://imgur.com/HxSxGIh.jpg)

Jumped another level. Starting on the actual residence levels now. Another six levels to go and it already dominates the street.

It sucks not being able to see the Cain's sign anymore.

"Progress."

The Sound Pony's music is indoors, and the first few floors of Davenport are parking, so I really don't see it being a problem. But the fact that there is even a risk of noise complaints from rich empty nesters is why I was against this development at all. I'm still hopeful that people who buy there will want to be there specifically because of the local nightlife (including OKPOP) and will embrace it all. I can't imagine that an older wealthy couple looking for solitude would choose that building. But again, the risk is always there, and people never cease to amaze me with stupidity.

It's not like there aren't other options like this for empty nesters who want some peace.  2300 Riverside, Yorktown Condos, and Liberty Tower are just a few that stand out in my mind.  I will be curious to see what the demographic in the building ends up looking like.  When I lived at Center Plaza (now Central Park Condos) when it was still apartments, there was everything from young professionals to middle-aged divorcees, to elderly people.  It was an interesting mix pretty much from all walks of life, other than families as the largest thing they had were two bed apartments and I don't think the rent was very cheap on those. 

I don't think the noise will be quite as much an issue as originally thought. I think the main issue will be the general nightlife/loitering/food trucks that come with the late night activities in the area. Probably wont see as much of the riff raff hanging around outside as you once saw at 12AM on a Friday. They will be pushed away by the bright lights and building security. The back patio of Soundpony might be a bit of a sore spot with all the vandalism that goes on back there, but presumably that will be contained to their property with all their tall fences.

The culture of the street has already changed a lot with the removal of Yeti and the beginning of construction for both this and the KFF project. This used to be the grungier side of the arts district, but with the new OKCPOP and this huge thing, it's now becoming the most gentrified area. Don't forget the new pizza restaurant in the yeti space...

When this building was announced, it was thoroughly pooh-poohed as being out of touch with the area, but in the end the developers understood what this area would inevitably become.

It was "pooh-poohed" because it wasn't what a lot of us wanted the area to become.

Everyone knew once these loft really happened it was just a matter of time.

Don't fret too much, with the rate these were (read: weren't) selling, they'll probably be purchased by regular rich working people eventually like DINKS who want to live in this sort of area rather than retirees. Why wait til you're old and boring to enjoy an area like this? Enjoy it while you're young with both spouses making 6 figures.

With steep prices like these, I doubt they'll sell very quickly and that eventually they'll be in a similar predicament as the Urban 8. Call these the Davenport 32. Looks like they've already fired their previous MLS agent.

The range of prices there are crazy: from the $30k's all the way up to $200k for some (where they've merged units). Although the vast majority are under $80k. The biggest ones are around $160k ($150k for a 1,500 sq ft recently). That puts some perspective when you consider this place is asking $650k for 1700 sq ft. I get that they're worlds apart in location and how nice they are, but still it's an aggressively high price.

Imagine being a retiree and having $650k cash, and you can either buy one really nice condo or you can buy 13 condos on other side of downtown and use that rental income to live a pretty lavish lifestyle ($70-$100k/year rental income). You could then take that money and afford the mortgage on one of these! ($4400/mo. payment) Buying one of these up front is such a bad deal, it makes buying Central Park Condos seem like a great investment! (kidding)

But really, that's what you'd need to do to make this worth it: replicate the income equivalent in investments, then use that income to pay the mortgage so that you don't bankrupt yourself because bills, condo fees and all the entertainment and dining is going to add up. I'm sure there's some wealthy/wise enough to do that. The question is whether living in this area will be worth it and whether that many will pony up for a hopefully sound investment (play on words intended). I think it ultimately should, but not yet.

(https://imgur.com/xPrw2hB.jpg)

Another blurry update for those not in the area. It looks huge in person now, and it's not even half way there.

This is a slap in the face to any respectable lighting designer.
Ugly Ugly uplights shining right into the apartments.
(https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/a/5a/a5a170aa-a627-502b-82fb-81d04d472579/5ee25c3dbba8c.image.jpg?resize=900%2C671)

Speaking of, here's the latest from the weekend. Brick work has started.

(https://imgur.com/NnuyOz7.jpg)

Bricks are now up to the second level, though there are spaces to fill in. This is going to look awesome when it's covered in brick.

          (https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/a/5a/a5a170aa-a627-502b-82fb-81d04d472579/5ee25c3dbba8c.image.jpg?resize=900%2C671)
                                              Spectacular glow before the morning sunrise.   I love this project...

(https://imgur.com/rbopnvX.jpg)

Brick has almost reached the top on at least a couple sides. From last friday.

Davenport with Main closed off for outdoor dining

(https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/119489459_191421829028542_3975638304768214604_o.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=od4A1JtbzIwAX90d5HT&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-1.xx&oh=6a380066b6535584eea6f23df2fb63ee&oe=5F84ECBC)

Looking great and really filling out the Arts District, but dang am I going to miss the view of seeing the Cain's sign from around this point. It was like the constant guardian light, always visible around that area.

I hope/wish I could rent one of those furnished for around a month just to see what that's like. No way could I in good financial conscience spend the amount they're asking for those. I get it for those that would, but that's likely not in the cards for me or the vast majority of Tulsans. I prioritize living space and maybe in a demographic they're aiming for, but can't fathom spending $500/ft2 for a place unless I was so rich that money meant almost nothing. You can send a couple kids to college and buy a beautiful mansion for less than what some of the units cost. Imagine buying one of those and being on a lower floor, facing the back side with highway/lot view.

It will be interesting to see the plans for the LA King site to the south.  Anyone have any other info other than this:

I've searched for plans on it and nothing seems to be public yet on it, as invested as the Hanson Brothers are in Tulsa and that area I'm sure it will be nice. I think given the development agreement they have they will be starting construction soon after Davenport is finished using the site as a staging location.

I just looked at the prices on Davenport and holy cow they've upped the prices. Most of the units are about a million dollars. Maybe I'm wrong but I thought most of the units were going to be in the $500k range or about $300/sq. ft. I haven't seen this marketed anywhere on typical real estate sites so I was concerned how this would do. It looks like they've sold most of the units though, they only have a small amount left as available on the property website. So, seems like a good thing to help establish the condo market downtown. I'd love to see some more affordable options though. Something in the $150k to $300k range with smaller units.

The Hanson plans are not public, and they’ve been very careful to keep them private. There are specific confidentiality provisions built into their TDA deal beyond the norm. Presumably this is because of their celebrity status, but it makes for an opaque process. They’re supposed to break ground by December so we may know more before end of year. Or else they’ll get another extension and we’ll stay in the dark a little longer.

The Davenport luxury-level product is the same type that was moving briskly in larger markets pre-pandemic. It exists in Tulsa right now in places like Utica Place: https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2100-S-Utica-Ave-10-Tulsa-OK-74114/2078696605_zpid/.  There’s no telling how it will do in the pandemic era, but the anticipated marketing period in these developments can be protracted—in other words, they may be prepared for sellout to take awhile.

What I’ve read only mentions the “25,640 sq ft” portion which presumably is the existing metal building adjacent to Davenport.  No idea what their plans are for the rest of the LA King site which includes parking lots and another building.  Hoping they add some new construction to the portion along Cameron.  That along with the TDA site across the street are two of the biggest remaining holes in this part of the Arts District.  Quality development on those parcels will tie together all of the recent developments on Main near the hotel to the new developments around Cain’s (Davenport & OKPop).

(https://imgur.com/PJ3L1Wc.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/HXGn1VH.jpg.jpg)

Not a huge amount of visual difference from a couple months ago, but they are getting real close, and it won't be long until the crane disappears.

(https://imgur.com/XIvoeYb.jpg)

Looking up from the soundpony patio. Can't wait to see how the new tenants react to some of the louder evenings out here. How long until some of the soundpony graffiti ends up on the davenport?

(https://imgur.com/aBXePF0.jpg)

This is just about done.

I believe the redevelopment of the LA King property to the south hinged upon this project finishing as they were using that property during construction.  Anyone heard any recent news about that project?  This is the one the Hanson brothers are invested in.

Interior rendering from their website

(https://davenportlofts.com/wp-content/themes/davenport2/img/image-5.png)

I noticed driving by last night that at least one unit is already furnished.

Anyone heard anything about the retail space on the bottom?

(https://imgur.com/WfberBd.jpg)

Surprisingly they are still working on the finishing touches on this one. Seems like they have been working in the street forever. No rush apparently. I can't tell, but it looks like some of the units may be occupied already. Obviously that one up top is still being finished.

It will be great to see the LA King site redeveloped next

The LA King redevelopment is off the table.  The Hansons sold the property back to Wally Tipsword's company and swapped for the empty block of parking across from Brady Theater.  And they've been trying to sell that block to pay off their TDA loan.  Surprised the Tulsa World has not covered this story.  It also has not been discussed in an open session of TDA.

This thing is inching towards completion.. I've been surprised at how slow the exterior work has been going.

Yeah, the building has been done for months and they are just finishing out some of the units now. I don't understand why they haven't finished the ground level. It's annoying how long the sidewalk/street has been closed off around it. Basically been that way for two years now. Even the WPX building, which is much larger and I'm pretty sure started after this, is about to take down it's fence. I wonder if they ran out of money right at the end or are having problems with their contractor? Finishing a driveway and sidewalk shouldn't take more than a week...

Seriously, why can't the city tell them to wrap it up already on the ground level?

Looks like they got the water meters installed this week. I assume they will be able to pour the curb and rest of the driveway now, or someday when they feel like it at least. They have some forms on the southside for some of the sidewalk to be finished.

Soundpony had a bike race yesterday and it was infuriating how congested the street was since people had to basically walk down the middle of the street during an active bike race to get around the davenport construction.

Fun fact: the soundpony now has a sign in the back patio telling patrons not to throw things at the davenport...

They already knew it was an unpopular development, it almost feels intentional now to keep the sidewalk closed. I guarantee there will be a noise complaint within the first week of someone living there.

That's kind of like when people move in next to an airport and then complain about the airplane noise.

Well the units were advertised as being in the center of nightlife, but I guess we'll see. The only noisy thing left is Soundpony, and the condo's are high enough above it that I doubt they'll hear much. Inner Circle used to have music occasionally, but I haven't seen them set a stage up in months unless I am just missing it.

I mean, The View seems to have filled up despite having fireworks exploding over it twice a week during the summer, not to mention all the other things that go on around it. Those apartments are pretty expensive too, though not quite as bad as these things. I wonder what they are selling for now - probably at least three quarters of a million.

On Zillow they only have nine of the 32 units still for sale. They have one left under a million at $826,000. The others all range from $1.3 million to $2.4 million.

https://www.zillow.com/community/davenport-lofts/29600174_plid/

I will say even though I wasn't a huge fan of the project when it was first proposed because I was afraid it would end up like most development with cost being cut. It really doesn't appear that has happened and even talking with the developer I think a lot of fears people had won't come true.

They aren't using a contractor on the job, so that's what's taking so long. The builder is doing it all himself (finding subs, etc.) while running a full time business. It's a bit different than many jobs this size.

When I had inquired about units the developer was very forward with the fact this building is in an entertainment area and if you don't like that don't buy a unit here. They also did show really intensive search for proper glass to use. I don't think many people even think about how much of a different the thickness and type of glass used can do for soundproofing. They've purposefully made the window openings on the northern side smaller as well to help with noise. I've been in buildings in other cities with high-end glass and you hear nothing outside, best example was Hotel 1 in West Hollywood and my room was only 4 floors above the Sunset Strip and I never heard a car, person, siren, etc. the entire time I was there. That type of glass is very expensive, but it appears they have spent that money to make sure the units are nearly soundproof from noises outside the building. It's reflected in the price per square foot of these units too.

I hope this will encourage some more condo development downtown. Prices of homes in midtown have gotten to the point condos make sense, you can't find a property that's been renovated/somewhat new for under $200/sq ft even in the Pearl District anymore.

We really need someone who will build 1 bedroom condos in the 500-900 sq ft range that would get people into the 'entry' home level for $125-200 k unit and do some small unit condos. I feel like that's a huge under served market and home prices in the Tulsa MSA are at a point where those would sell because you can't find a new home even in the suburbs for less than $250-300k anymore.

If I had $1m+ to spend I think I'd rather build something as opposed to some crazy expensive "loft" that doesn't even come with dedicated parking (well - okay - it has dedicated storage for your bicycle). I agree with LandArchPoke - entry level condos need to happen downtown - this country is making a mistake only catering to the 1%ers and letting everyone else fight for the scraps. I disagree however that condos ever make sense.  ;D

Interesting, this seems pretty rare for Oklahoma. Is this some weird version of design-build?

A lot of it comes down to financing - I'm not super hopefully that it ever changes. We could look at Canada as a model of how our banks and financing agencies should deal with new condos.

A condo build is deemed more risky than a subdivision by banks so developers have to be very well capitalized to do them. The insurance and potential lawsuits to a developer (contractor, architect, etc.) in many states like Oklahoma is very large - you can get sued for years down the road for anything and everything if enough owners get together. People who want to buy a condo too have a really hard time buying them as opposed to a house if they're proposed, that's why most condo buildings cater to the 1% because they have excess cash they can put down for reservations normal people can't put aside for 12-24 months while it's under construction.

Until Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae wake up and create a condo financing program that makes it easier for people to buy them too you'll likely never see large scale condo developments that are affordable anywhere in the US. The Canadian financial system is set up to allow for financing these types of things and that's one of many reasons many of the smaller cities (not that much bigger than Tulsa or OKC) like Edmonton, Calgary, etc. are significantly more dense. A lot of young people tend to buy condos in the urban core as starter homes in many Canadian cities before moving out to bigger homes. Vancouver you can still find small condos for $400-600k in a city that most homes are $2 million +

Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae don't get the deserved attention for driving so much of the suburbanization of our cities. Just minor changes to national and federal policy would do wonders for the housing crisis in the US. A starter home doesn't have to be a single-family house.

The builder of this runs a construction business. It's a prefab type thing for commercial buildings (banks, fast food, etc.). So my guess is he just didn't want to pay the additional money to a firm since he could likely do it himself. Just not as fast. He's a nice guy and planning to live in the building so it's not a developer who is taking the money and running away after either and couldn't care what problems are caused after it is occupied.

Great insight, LandArch. It does look like this will be a quality project when finished. Curious to see what kind of retail they're able to land on the street.

Wonder if the people who owned the Yeti are still out there looking for a space...  ;D

Can you believe that the sidewalk was still closed as of a week or so ago? I can't believe the city never stepped in and more people didn't complain about this. At long last though, the building is done and ready to open: https://tulsaworld.com/business/local/downtown-developments-move-ins-begin-soon-at-lofts-next-to-cains/article_1a07f91c-92ba-11ed-b78f-538fe6620eee.html

19 sold out of 29 isn't bad for a luxury condo tower in this town. Now of course it will be interesting to see if the long feared changes will happen to the area once residents move in. I don't think Cain's will be an issue. It's really just Soundpony as the last hold-out of the old dive bars that gave the area it's charm. Inner Circle probably won't be able to host outdoor shows anymore, but they rarely did anyway.

As of the PUP show last Sunday night, the sidewalk is STILL not open. There's still spots where the cladding is unfinished. There's lots of paper haphazardly placed over the windows. It looks like some units are being finished, but no one has moved in yet from the looks of it despite the news story I posted two months ago that said move-ins were imminent.

About a year ago I was remarking that the building looked mostly done and I assumed people would be moving in soon. It's bizarre how slow this has gone since the wrap-up of the major construction.

I noticed the stucco across from Soundpony has some dents and holes in it... possibly from Soundpony patrons throwing stuff at it. There's a big sign threatening people not to throw stuff at the building from their patio, lol.