Fallin cuts top tax rate, says state revenue growth is enough.

[Hoss]

Yep but OK is not the only state playing that game.

Correct, they're not.  But OK has had the use tax for years now.  Why all of a sudden?  Oh, budget shortfalls!  That would be why!

[nathanm]

RTW didn't do what it promised.

However, it did succeed at doing what was intended, which was encourage free-riders so as to weaken the political power of unions. I find a strong contradiction in the thinking of those who claim to be of a libertarian bent but are blind to the obvious, which is that if corporations have the freedom to influence politics with vast sums of money, unions are the only candidate for a counterbalance. Both sides should get a seat at the table, but the Republicans have been busy kneecapping the unions so they can't claim one.

That's not to say that union corruption should go unpunished, but it would be nice to see the same scrutiny visited on their counterparts in management.

[AquaMan]

Well put.

I also hope Oklahomans are starting to realize what happens when you allow Legislative and Executive offices to be dominated by one party and the extreme elements of that party to boot. We get these oddball agendas that have nothing to do with keeping the state prosperous and well run but gives us plenty of YouTube time and dubious distinctions of being on the top of lists the southern states dominate.

[Red Arrow]

Correct, they're not.  But OK has had the use tax for years now.  Why all of a sudden?  Oh, budget shortfalls!  That would be why!

It's not really so all of a sudden.  I bought my last airplane in March of 2000.  The Okla Tax Commission was very quick to note the FAA registration change.  Internet sales are a bit more difficult to track.

[Red Arrow]

Oh my. This is interesting. The only two states to be in the top half of unemployment rankings on your list of zero income tax states are the only two states on your list to NOT have Right To Work laws!

Alaska, ranked #21 in unemployment and is NOT a Right to Work state. (How did Palin let that happen?)
New Hampshire ranked #4 in unemployment and is NOT a Right to Work state.

So, indeed there seems to be a correlation with RTW, Zero Income Tax and high levels of unemployment.

Statistical samples of 2 out of 50?  You may be right but so far you have not proven anything.

[Red Arrow]

Well put.

I also hope Oklahomans are starting to realize what happens when you allow Legislative and Executive offices to be dominated by one party and the extreme elements of that party to boot. We get these oddball agendas that have nothing to do with keeping the state prosperous and well run but gives us plenty of YouTube time and dubious distinctions of being on the top of lists the southern states dominate.

When I moved to OK (with the rest of the family) in 1971 and registered Republican, I could have just as well registered non-voter in local elections.  I don't agree with the religious wackos the Republican party has put up lately but I still cannot buy into the Democratic Party candidates either. 

[Red Arrow]

However, it did succeed at doing what was intended, which was encourage free-riders so as to weaken the political power of unions. I find a strong contradiction in the thinking of those who claim to be of a libertarian bent but are blind to the obvious, which is that if corporations have the freedom to influence politics with vast sums of money, unions are the only candidate for a counterbalance. Both sides should get a seat at the table, but the Republicans have been busy kneecapping the unions so they can't claim one.

That's not to say that union corruption should go unpunished, but it would be nice to see the same scrutiny visited on their counterparts in management.

Neither Unions nor Corporations should have any political power as organizations.  Individual members should have say as just that, individual members.

[Red Arrow]

RTW didn't do what it promised.

I'll give you the Obama reasoning for the stimulus as a response:  It could have been worse.  We will never really know.

And some day we will be able to test your theory of more money per pupil does not cure education when we actually try it. I refuse to believe that our feedstock is inherently inferior to surrounding states.

What don't you understand about a minimum threshold of spending?  As far as feedstock, I don't believe our folks are any less intelligent than surrounding states but I do believe there is a possibility that "we" don't place as high a value on formal education as some others.  Throwing money at a situation where the participants don't see the need for the solution will not result in the desired outcome.  Maybe it comes from our rural roots where being able to fix the tractor or weld a broken plow was more important than solving "If train A leaves the station at noon and train B leaves at 1:00 PM...." or knowing the difference between their, there, and they're....

As far as unions, I believe that neutering unions by law is counterproductive to all parties to business. Balance is essential to progress in most companies. When labor is represented well or treated well you have balance. You lose that balance you have no checks and balances and excesses ensue.  Neither do I believe that an overbearing, arrogant union is useful. I have a union where I work and have chosen not to participate because with RTW it is pointless. Very weak union. My employer visits union meetings (we're a member of a large union that represents many other types of companies) and writes down the names of participants from our industry for future use. It isn't to give kudos to them later. Its truly Industrial Age behavior.

I believe that a well managed company will have no need for a union.  You say you don't participate in the union because of RTW and the union is weak.  What would you expect from your union if your union was all powerful and could bring your employer to its knees?  I'll agree that spying on Union meetings is shady but I understand it as self preservation by the employer. There have been plenty of shady operations on both sides over the years.  When Sam Gompers etc were organizing things, there was a real need for something.  I have said before that 100 years ago I would have been a pro-union guy.  There was a time when unions provided the skilled labor by providing trade training.  Unskilled labor unions were just mass power.  Considering conditions in the late 19th Century, that was probably a good thing.  Now I see unions as just another big business designed to control another business.  Perhaps they still serve a purpose when the only impact an individual can have is negative, as in do a good job and you get no reward but screw up once and you're gone.  I fully recognize that many of my working conditions like a 40 hr standard work week are a result of early unions.   

[nathanm]

Neither Unions nor Corporations should have any political power as organizations.  Individual members should have say as just that, individual members.

I don't disagree with that in the slightest. Unfortunately, shouldn't does not equal don't.

[AquaMan]

Statistical samples of 2 out of 50?  You may be right but so far you have not proven anything.

Nor did I intend to. It was tongue in cheek using the same sort of faulty logic that Spoiled Cabbage used. However, my statistical sample is the only one available as there are only 6 states that have enacted zero income tax who alse either did or did not enact RTW. I couldn't really fabricate any more to get a larger statistical sample could I?

[AquaMan]

When I moved to OK (with the rest of the family) in 1971 and registered Republican, I could have just as well registered non-voter in local elections.  I don't agree with the religious wackos the Republican party has put up lately but I still cannot buy into the Democratic Party candidates either. 

Its not one or the other. Its balance that we miss here. Even when our state was primarily a Democratic leaning state, it was not the party that mattered it was the issues. The old Democratic party that Okies loved was against integration, inter-racial marriage, women's rights, and such. Once the party moved away from those issues Okies moved to the other party. What the state never seems to have is a balance of rural vs city, progress vs status quo.

[AquaMan]

Neither Unions nor Corporations should have any political power as organizations.  Individual members should have say as just that, individual members.

That is revolutionary thinking. That just leaves PAC's doesn't it?

People use organizations to leverage their power. The NRA, the NOW, the ELCA, all use that leverage to influence government. I don't think that is wrong. Once you start picking and choosing which organizations should have the use of that leverage it gets dicey.

[AquaMan]

I'll give you the Obama reasoning for the stimulus as a response:  It could have been worse.  We will never really know.

Never heard him say that. But no, we do know what was life in OK before RTW, we know what was promised with RTW (more jobs, better jobs, more corporations moving to the state) and we know what happened after RTW passed (more low skill phone center jobs, exit of high paying corporate jobs, higher unemployment).

[AquaMan]

What don't you understand about a minimum threshold of spending?  As far as feedstock, I don't believe our folks are any less intelligent than surrounding states but I do believe there is a possibility that "we" don't place as high a value on formal education as some others.  Throwing money at a situation where the participants don't see the need for the solution will not result in the desired outcome.  Maybe it comes from our rural roots where being able to fix the tractor or weld a broken plow was more important than solving "If train A leaves the station at noon and train B leaves at 1:00 PM...." or knowing the difference between their, there, and they're....   

I don't understand why you would use the prhrase in context of Oklahoma's education problems. Historically studies show that we do not make as strong an investment in public school education as other states who are showing greater returns measured by accepted testing. Whether that is a function of the the rural nature of the state geograpically or mentally is not clear to me. It may be the result of a proliferation of school districts that forces too much money into administrative cost.

Or, more likely, it is the political/religious nature of the state that manifests itself in the phrase, "If I can't have her...nobody can. " IOW, if they insist on teaching our young'uns about sexual reproduction, gays, unions, communism, socialism ect. that differs from what we currently believe, then we're by God not going to fund such nonsense. In my gut I feel that is what's happening.

Instead they look towards private schools, charter schools, and home schooling where learning may be better controlled.

[AquaMan]

I believe that a well managed company will have no need for a union.  You say you don't participate in the union because of RTW and the union is weak.  What would you expect from your union if your union was all powerful and could bring your employer to its knees?  I'll agree that spying on Union meetings is shady but I understand it as self preservation by the employer. There have been plenty of shady operations on both sides over the years.  When Sam Gompers etc were organizing things, there was a real need for something.  I have said before that 100 years ago I would have been a pro-union guy.  There was a time when unions provided the skilled labor by providing trade training.  Unskilled labor unions were just mass power.  Considering conditions in the late 19th Century, that was probably a good thing.  Now I see unions as just another big business designed to control another business.  Perhaps they still serve a purpose when the only impact an individual can have is negative, as in do a good job and you get no reward but screw up once and you're gone.  I fully recognize that many of my working conditions like a 40 hr standard work week are a result of early unions.   

My father was a hard working blue collar anti-union guy and sounded pretty much like you. I am a business graduate and was expected to take the company line and often did around my contemporaries. They are, to be kind, fallacious viewpoints. In reality, unions are not what you have described. It isn't "All powerful Unions" or "All powerful Business" as the only choices.  I wonder how corporates would respond to the same limitation on their operations that labor organizers have on theirs in Oklahoma. To wit: you may not force any white collar employee to sign an employment contract but you still have to employ them at the same rate and with the same contractual elements as those who do. Who would sign a contract then? And any bargaining power the company had would be pretty weak wouldn't it?
 
And shady is a pseudonym for ..coercive, bullyish, thuggish. It is weak defense to justify such behavior by noting that both sides have used such tactics in hte past. Unfortunately, most people draw their judgements from limited, but negative, experience with union people or movies and company propaganda. Its two different cultures mgt and labor. People get degrees in how to bridge that gap.

I hope you never lose your office level status and have to go back to labor status. It has been an awakening for me. Some effort has been made on TV with a program that places owners/managers in low labor jobs within their own companies where they get an update on what effect their policies and procedures have on real people. I'm no union man, I just think both sides benefit from the balance of a more level playing field.