Iron Gate

[AquaMan]

This right here...    

I don't feel I'm qualified to weigh in on how to solve this problem, and I tend to agree with others that to a certain extent it will never go away.  But running through this string just now I first saw Heirony's line: "They have a right to trash a fine park." (and I am taking that piece in context, it was well-written response.)  And respectfully, I disagree. They, nor anyone, has a right to trash anything.  Use the parks, hang out, etc, fine.  But when you start setting up tents and leaving trash all around, intimidating people, etc, you have overstepped your welcome.

Getting people off the streets, in whatever form that is accomplished, is admirable.  But with aid comes some form of agreement with regard to behavior.  Simply feeding a person, or housing them, etc, without some commitment from the individual only perpetuates a bad situation.

That was my quote and indeed I did mean it in context as a sardonic response. With all rights come responsibilities but because of the nature of their illnesses, they don't accept those responsibilities.

I was afraid this would devolve into a political, conservative vs liberal conversation as most everything does these days. I would love to see us as a community do something, novel, insightful, meaningful even if it does fail. Because when you keep saying we're better than people think or as good or better than others our size, our politics, our income etc nothing really happens to improve our condition. Then parks deteriorate till the next one is built, people build walls around their neighborhoods and join NIMBY fights and the rich get richer, and we can't get our pitture on the cover of the Rolling Stone.

I might have drifted a bit there...

[RecycleMichael]

DC, SF, Springfield MA, Seattle, NYC and all of the other major liberal cities should be ashamed of themselves and how they treat those who are not well off and they should all look up to conservative cities who actually help those in need like Wichita, Tulsa and Provo.

Total hogwash.

Seattle has excellent programs for the homeless from public and private sources. They allow tent cities  on road right of ways, allow homeless to sell newspapers for income, and have a large host of social service agencies to deal with mental illness.

D.C. has an incredible network of social service agencies dealing with the homeless. http://www.dccfh.org/

Stop acting as if this is a partisan issue.

[heironymouspasparagus]

 

I don't feel I'm qualified to weigh in on how to solve this problem, and I tend to agree with others that to a certain extent it will never go away.  But running through this string just now I first saw Heirony's line: "They have a right to trash a fine park." (and I am taking that piece in context, it was well-written response.)  And respectfully, I disagree. They, nor anyone, has a right to trash anything.  Use the parks, hang out, etc, fine.  But when you start setting up tents and leaving trash all around, intimidating people, etc, you have overstepped your welcome.

??

I don't remember saying that... where was it??

[heironymouspasparagus]

Total hogwash.

Seattle has excellent programs for the homeless from public and private sources. They allow tent cities  on road right of ways, allow homeless to seel newspapers for income, and have a large host of social service agencies to deal with mental illness.

D.C. has an incredible network of social service agencies dealing with the homeless. http://www.dccfh.org/

Stop acting as if this is a partisan issue.

Thank you!


I have met a couple of the people who were living behind the troll in Seattle - at least at the time I was there - and they were not ignored/neglected by the powers that be.  They just chose to be where they were, even though they seemed to imply they could have had a more 'conventional' roof than a bridge if they had chosen to.  As it was early summer and very pleasant weather, I could see the attraction to "camping out"....being outdoors while the weather is good.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

Total hogwash.

Seattle has excellent programs for the homeless from public and private sources. They allow tent cities  on road right of ways, allow homeless to seel newspapers for income, and have a large host of social service agencies to deal with mental illness.

D.C. has an incredible network of social service agencies dealing with the homeless. http://www.dccfh.org/

Stop acting as if this is a partisan issue.

Well the numbers tell a different story. If they really helped homeless, there wouldn't be that many. They would have homes. Seattle has an atrociously high number of homeless (13,000!). They would need that down to 3,000 to compare to Tulsa's levels. That is an embarrassment. Tell me about how great Seattle is with homeless when they get their percentages down well below the national average at least. Yes, it is high rent to blame, I know. Well Tulsa really has them beat then! 

I know it is not a partisan issue. That is why my somewhat tongue-in-cheek post was replying to Heironymous' post claiming that it was. I specifically said "which shows it is not a R/D issue."

[cannon_fodder]

I know I sound like the angry ogre here, so sorry. I know these are people. I know many of them need help and can get back on their feet. I know still others have been failed by our mental health or drug addiction system. But... The Seattle proposal for free camping (it hasn't obtained final approval) would be something I'd be against, just like many people in Seattle:

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/seattle-city-council-gets-an-earful-as-it-weighs-protections-for-homeless-in-camp-evictions/

The plan is essentially that anyone can camp in a park if they claim they are homeless. Some areas would be deemed of limits (sidewalks, schools, etc.). The city can request they leave after 30 days if the city can provide alternative housing for them.  If the area became dangerous/unsanitary due to too many homeless, the city would have to try to remedy the problems before requiring the people to leave. Install and clean toilets, regular trash pickup, etc.

Lets pick Guthrie Green, Woodard Park, and the Gathering Place and fill them up with several hundred homeless camps. Really, that is making it easier on the ~300 homeless people to continue the status quo - and bad for the other 1,000,000 people in the metro. Not too mention, it is a huge welcome mat for as many homeless people as can get to Tulsa from OKC, Wichita, Dallas, Little Rock, KC... wherever they can get $50 together for a bus ticket to get a better offer here in Tulsa. Unfortunately, Tulsa has closed community pools, eviscerated other parks, and the State has shut down most state parks - I don't think we can afford to offer up our existing parks for other uses at the moment.

When Portland tried it, the homeless congregated along their trail system. Imagine river trails, with homeless camps up and down it.  Don't bother imagining it, here's a picture from Portland:


http://koin.com/2015/12/15/city-struggles-to-take-action-as-homeless-camps-multiply/

Portland tried this policy, and ended it August 2:

http://www.opb.org/news/article/portland-homeless-camping-policy-end-safe-sleep/

In my admittedly unlearned opinion, that isn't a policy aimed at a solution, it's just enabling.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

Thank you!


I have met a couple of the people who were living behind the troll in Seattle - at least at the time I was there - and they were not ignored/neglected by the powers that be.  They just chose to be where they were, even though they seemed to imply they could have had a more 'conventional' roof than a bridge if they had chosen to.  As it was early summer and very pleasant weather, I could see the attraction to "camping out"....being outdoors while the weather is good.

Hogwash that the homeless enjoy being homeless! Everyone has a desire to save face. Do you think they want the additional shame of admitting they hate being homeless? In Utah, they've found that only about 10-15% of chronically homeless outright refuse to move into a home for one reason or another when offered (sometimes takes a long time to convince them). So Seattle should be able to reduce that from 13k down to 2k if they were really trying. That is a terrible place to be homeless with frequent rain and stable but somewhat chilly weather.

Portland has 7100 homeless!? That is insane. Imagine what we would say about Tulsa and OKC if we had 7000 homeless between the 2 cities!

heironymous, Can you explain why Tulsa is held to a much much higher standard than Portland or Seattle? Them  being among the worst places for homelessness in the US is good according to you whereas Tulsa's ranking near the top in the US in fewest homeless is a complete failure.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

The problem with Portland is the homeless don't want housing, they don't need it. Between Portland and Vancouver there are probably 20 some odd places where they can get warm/food/showers/laundry/mass transit passes/basic medical/clothes/shoes/toiletries/tents/sleeping bags etc, and when you can gather bottles and cans a get $.05/can or bottle, they have everything they want.

[rebound]

??
I don't remember saying that... where was it??

Sorry, my bad.  It was Aqua.  I was writing from memory.   He took credit for it a bit earlier. 

[Conan71]

Hogwash that the homeless enjoy being homeless! Everyone has a desire to save face. Do you think they want the additional shame of admitting they hate being homeless? In Utah, they've found that only about 10-15% of chronically homeless outright refuse to move into a home for one reason or another when offered (sometimes takes a long time to convince them). So Seattle should be able to reduce that from 13k down to 2k if they were really trying. That is a terrible place to be homeless with frequent rain and stable but somewhat chilly weather.

Portland has 7100 homeless!? That is insane. Imagine what we would say about Tulsa and OKC if we had 7000 homeless between the 2 cities!

heironymous, Can you explain why Tulsa is held to a much much higher standard than Portland or Seattle? Them  being among the worst places for homelessness in the US is good according to you whereas Tulsa's ranking near the top in the US in fewest homeless is a complete failure.

While most homeless people would rather have a roof over their head, there are some (I'd say a smaller percentage, no idea what that % would be scientifically) who really are happy to not have the responsibility of an apartment or house, or remembering to have enough money to pay utilities before they got shut off.

I've actually known some day laborers who were happy to live down by the Arkansas River rather than staying in a week-to-week fleabag motel.  It is not what I consider ideal but they got off work, bought beer, a pint, or some cheap wine and went down to the river to fish, hang out and catch a buzz.  Essentially, these were people who knew they were not responsible enough with their money (nor willing to make a commitment to show up and work every day) to make the commitment for a lease on an apartment or house.  If the weather looked harsh for a few days, they would get a room over near the turnpike gate in west Tulsa.

It's been some time since we needed menial shop help so bad we would tolerate the work habits of the habitually drunk, but that's where my experience with this comes from.  Yes, there's a certain amount of substance abuse controlling their life, but they would claim they loved their freedom. If they were too hung over to make it in a couple of days a week, no sweat.  They didn't have many personal possessions to shepherd and didn't have to worry about a place to keep clean.  

We did have a welder who worked for us a couple of years back that if he didn't have a few girlfriends around town willing to put him up here and there he would have been homeless.

Certainly people like that could change the order of their priorities.  For most of us, our first priority is food and shelter.  It literally is pretty far down the list for some people in society who either view it as optional or there's a bigger desire to be somewhat lazy and to be able to drink or drug as they please.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

In Utah they found it is about 10-15% of homeless who refuse free housing without conditions of quitting drinking/drugs.

In Tulsa, about 700-800 would. That's the amount of units we need if we want to eradicate chronic homelessness as much as we can. That could cost around $400,000/month or $4.8 million a year, well below what Tulsans donate to charities already. We have several organizations bringing in well over that. Plus, with these housing programs, they utilize existing government benefits (Section 8, military, disabled, etc) to reduce the burden on the local charities. Also, eventually many of the tenants end up getting jobs and paying some too.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

The problem with Portland is the homeless don't want housing, they don't need it. Between Portland and Vancouver there are probably 20 some odd places where they can get warm/food/showers/laundry/mass transit passes/basic medical/clothes/shoes/toiletries/tents/sleeping bags etc, and when you can gather bottles and cans a get $.05/can or bottle, they have everything they want.

You are really glamorizing the terrible homelessness issue in those places. I would much rather be homeless here than in Portland or Vancouver. In Tulsa, there's no shortage of shelters if you're willing to give up alcohol and drugs and live by the rules. There's an abundance of places to get free food. Homeless around here are not in want of food. Ever try giving food to a homeless person here? I have been met with negative reactions just about every time I've offered to give or buy food (but typically just "no thanks, I need a bus ticket"...).

Also, as I said, most homeless people would accept free housing if offered, especially without requirements to quit drugs/alcohol. Some are freebirds for life  but most would rather at least have a place inside.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Hogwash that the homeless enjoy being homeless! Everyone has a desire to save face. Do you think they want the additional shame of admitting they hate being homeless? In Utah, they've found that only about 10-15% of chronically homeless outright refuse to move into a home for one reason or another when offered (sometimes takes a long time to convince them). So Seattle should be able to reduce that from 13k down to 2k if they were really trying. That is a terrible place to be homeless with frequent rain and stable but somewhat chilly weather.

Portland has 7100 homeless!? That is insane. Imagine what we would say about Tulsa and OKC if we had 7000 homeless between the 2 cities!

heironymous, Can you explain why Tulsa is held to a much much higher standard than Portland or Seattle? Them  being among the worst places for homelessness in the US is good according to you whereas Tulsa's ranking near the top in the US in fewest homeless is a complete failure.

I did not say "enjoy".  Don't go all Trumpy on me!

Given all the other components of their situation, that is where those two guys chose to be at that moment in time.  Maybe the weather was pleasant, maybe the panhandling was better due to all the tourists.  I didn't dig that deep into their situation.  They could have been elsewhere - the troll is where they chose to be.  One of them had a bicycle, so he was definitely more mobile of the two.

[AquaMan]

Seems like we're hung up on the word "homeless". Its a catch all word. We're really talking about substance abusers aren't we? People who get high or drunk and sleep in the bushes around a downtown church till they can get some coffee and food, then start the panhandling and do it all over again. They could care less about having a home except when it hot, cold or wet.

[TheArtist]

Seems like we're hung up on the word "homeless". Its a catch all word. We're really talking about substance abusers aren't we? People who get high or drunk and sleep in the bushes around a downtown church till they can get some coffee and food, then start the panhandling and do it all over again. They could care less about having a home except when it hot, cold or wet.

Thats what I have started pointing out.  These are either mentally ill people, and or, people with substance abuse problems.