Tulsa’s fiscal priorities are out of whack

[Renaissance]

At least part of this plan would benefit Tulsa streets: new Riverside Drive.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by AMP

Listening to a 41 year old radio talk show host on the AM talk radio today. Today is his birthday and he was reflecting back from his early years to today.  He reminded me why our roads are in such bad shape.  

According to what we were taught as kids, by this time in history, we were all supposed to be flying around in our cars, not rolling on wheels.  

Wow.  I'm the same age and was told the same thing.... for years, I thought Tulsa was home of the Jetson's apt. building....

[shadows]

Seems here while back there was a development along the river.  Believe it was destroyed and the people put on the streets.

One can dream of what it is to want to spend $300 for a meal and unable to find a restaurants that will provide the serving of a $300 meal.
.
 It gives one deep thought when Tulsa, as an aging town, with resident’s trying to survive on SS at less than $500 a month and paying almost 10% already on food and other life support.  All tax increased takes from these their quality of life.  They are the ones that live in cold houses in the winter and hot houses in the summer.  They have given so much to their children already that asking for more is an insult to our ways of life.  

Then those who can spend $300 for a meal are the ones who should support the city fancies through a change in the taxing structure.  The city will accept donations.  

When we looks at the brown stinking river that is not approved for swimming, still has 30 miles of still water to drop the mud out before reaching the dam, the river with very unstable erosion of the banks that has had dikes installed, by the good fairy waving her wan we are going to change it to clear water liken to White River as it flows out of the bluff.   In the last 70 years I have seen large parts of farms disappear into the river bed.  Their title extends beyond the river banks.  This may cause legations costing millions.  Yep: “Yonder Cicero with a lean and hungry look.”  

Still this new generation that is developing the river could Urban Renewal the 71st street business area and install artificial turf for soccer fields on the wide street.  Then furnish the present merchants free river bank lands to move their business to.

Yes Virginia, our priorities are shore whacked up.      
 .    .  

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by shadows

Seems here while back there was a development along the river.  Believe it was destroyed and the people put on the streets.

One can dream of what it is to want to spend $300 for a meal and unable to find a restaurants that will provide the serving of a $300 meal.
.
 It gives one deep thought when Tulsa, as an aging town, with resident’s trying to survive on SS at less than $500 a month and paying almost 10% already on food and other life support.  All tax increased takes from these their quality of life.  They are the ones that live in cold houses in the winter and hot houses in the summer.  They have given so much to their children already that asking for more is an insult to our ways of life.  

Then those who can spend $300 for a meal are the ones who should support the city fancies through a change in the taxing structure.  The city will accept donations.  

When we looks at the brown stinking river that is not approved for swimming, still has 30 miles of still water to drop the mud out before reaching the dam, the river with very unstable erosion of the banks that has had dikes installed, by the good fairy waving her wan we are going to change it to clear water liken to White River as it flows out of the bluff.   In the last 70 years I have seen large parts of farms disappear into the river bed.  Their title extends beyond the river banks.  This may cause legations costing millions.  Yep: “Yonder Cicero with a lean and hungry look.”  

Still this new generation that is developing the river could Urban Renewal the 71st street business area and install artificial turf for soccer fields on the wide street.  Then furnish the present merchants free river bank lands to move their business to.

Yes Virginia, our priorities are shore whacked up.      
 .    .  

You just described most of the Mississippi and Missouri rivers. Not to mention plaines rivers all over the midwest. The Illinois is clear, but hardly unspoiled. People develop these rivers, swim in them, boat on them and generally admire those communities that manage them well. Are we not up to the task? Do we need to wait till everyone's basic needs are taken care of? When has that ever happened?

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by shadows

Seems here while back there was a development along the river.  Believe it was destroyed and the people put on the streets.

One can dream of what it is to want to spend $300 for a meal and unable to find a restaurants that will provide the serving of a $300 meal.
.
 It gives one deep thought when Tulsa, as an aging town, with resident’s trying to survive on SS at less than $500 a month and paying almost 10% already on food and other life support.  All tax increased takes from these their quality of life.  They are the ones that live in cold houses in the winter and hot houses in the summer.  They have given so much to their children already that asking for more is an insult to our ways of life.  

Then those who can spend $300 for a meal are the ones who should support the city fancies through a change in the taxing structure.  The city will accept donations.  

When we looks at the brown stinking river that is not approved for swimming, still has 30 miles of still water to drop the mud out before reaching the dam, the river with very unstable erosion of the banks that has had dikes installed, by the good fairy waving her wan we are going to change it to clear water liken to White River as it flows out of the bluff.   In the last 70 years I have seen large parts of farms disappear into the river bed.  Their title extends beyond the river banks.  This may cause legations costing millions.  Yep: “Yonder Cicero with a lean and hungry look.”  

Still this new generation that is developing the river could Urban Renewal the 71st street business area and install artificial turf for soccer fields on the wide street.  Then furnish the present merchants free river bank lands to move their business to.

Yes Virginia, our priorities are shore whacked up.      
 .    .  

Dont know what development your talking about.

As for asking more from the poor and elderly. If we dont grow our economy and population the demographics are going to keep shifting to it being more and more poor and elderly. The roads will still have to be fixed. Then who is going to be left footing the bill? If its hard on them now, just wait till that 600 million or so road bill hits them and there are less 300dollar a meal people here to help them pay for it. Each one of those people paying for 300 dollar a meals, fancy cars, buying new homes filling them with new furniture, etc. are paying a lot more to fix the roads than a dozen poor and elderly. If you want it to only be the poor and elderly shoudering the total load, thats really going to cost them then. We need to reverse the population drain, high paying job and income earners drain, and the aging demographic shift. If you can re design the way the city collects funds for roads and such that could help. But right now its a sales tax and we need more "big spenders" buying 300dollar meals. The poor and elderly arent going to be able to do it alone and the roads and crime will only get worse and worse and in the end their tax burden even higher.

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by AMP



To attempt to blend in public areas and retail shops to coexist with those heavy industrial businesses that are noisy and produce obnoxious fumes, dust and odors does not seem logical to many.   Without those heavy industrial businesses it would be difficult to construct the buildings, pave the streets, provide power to the businesses, and remove the solid waste from the employees and customers.

I beleve one of the main reasons for locating these heavey industrial businesses on the West side of the Arkansas River was for a few reasons. One to contain dust that would settle in the river, two to contain a major fire when or if the refineries were to explode, and three to subdue the noise from the residential and retail areas.  

I can't let these go. The reason for the location is two fold. The land was cheap because no one considered river bank property very valuable. And two, the industry needed a source of water for running the steam powered refinery and a drain for their effluent. Concrete production requires water for mixing and dust settlement. They also dumped left over cement from the trucks along the banks. Once the refinery located along the river, all their contractors, suppliers and labor did too. Even though they no longer use the water from the river they did then.

Commercial development will not be merging with a lot of that industry, they will be supplanting them. Especially the trucking interests that hold the best land on the west side between 41st and 51st.

I think the location was chosen because Red Fork was where the oil was.  Tulsa got a bridge up pretty quickly and that established a settlement pattern that really hasn't changed much:  oil fields and worker housing on one side, and management housing on the other.  I think this pattern was established a long time ago.

[jne]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

quote:Originally posted by AMP

Listening to a 41 year old radio talk show host on the AM talk radio today. Today is his birthday and he was reflecting back from his early years to today.  He reminded me why our roads are in such bad shape.  

According to what we were taught as kids, by this time in history, we were all supposed to be flying around in our cars, not rolling on wheels.  

Wow.  I'm the same age and was told the same thing.... for years, I thought Tulsa was home of the Jetson's apt. building....

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,70131-1278332,00.html

The World is very different ever since the robot uprising of the mid-90s....

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=2029231258

[Hometown]

Short Answer:  Shadows is right.

Long Answer:

Thank you Shadows.  Your post today reads like poetry.  Your parallel metaphor of the homeless camp on the river hits home.  

It is unconscionable to continue to increase sales tax when we know that Oklahoma leads the nation in hunger.  I’ve written about all of Tulsa’s toothless White people who have never been to the dentist, can’t conjugate verbs and vote Republican.

People, say that establishing a city income tax is not doable, wouldn’t survive a vote.  So, what do we do instead?  We continue to pile in on poor folks with excessive sales taxes, as we have done since 1980 because it is EASY.

Shadows, as a Democrat that has seen my party lose elections because we have tried to craft policies that benefit working people I want to say to you that poor Whites are an enormous part of the problem.  They have made it possible for Republicans to win elections and implement policies that benefit only the wealthy.

What’s going on has gone on for a long time now and I’m not sure how we are going to catapult ourselves over this immoral log jam.  But we must try to return some fairness to our system.

Artist, if you knew your rich friends a little better, you would know that wealthy folks have attorneys that advise them on trusts and other strategies that leave them paying much less tax than you might guess.

The middle and lower class carry far more than their share of the burden of community life thanks to the greed at the top.

The injustice now is so extreme and so obvious and has hit the middle class as well as the lower class.  But this won’t last forever.

We need to try to get Tulsa on a sound financial footing without forever turning to sales tax.

The river is a calculated risk that probably won’t do much of what its promoters are promising.  I understand why you won’t vote for it.  But we have gone so far down this path of soaking the poor that I don’t know that another .4 of a cent is going to be noticeable -- but it has to stop here.

Folks, I think if you really reflected on it, you would agree that our river is not worth as much as one precious human life and the cold and heat and hunger that Shadows speaks of is real and it is happening today in our sometimes not so beautiful city.

[TheArtist]

I certainly hear you about the way taxes seem to work in our city. Even though on average Oklahomans pay far less than most states, it appears as though we pay much more. That perception problem alone probably hurts us. Someone visiting or new to town buys something at a store and looks at their purchase receipt and goes WOW! taxes are high here. A person from here goes to another state pays for something and gets a suprise in the opposite direction. But neither of them adjust for the other taxes that are immediately unseen. (like in behavioral modification one knows that an immediate reward or punishment is more effective than one coming long after an act, even if the later punishment or reward is somewhat greater).  

I wish I knew what the solution was to our city and states "poor problem". Education is one key and if I had my druthers I would rather spend this upcoming river tax and road tax on that instead. And the disparities that exist within schools here is just the opposite of what it should be. The schools in areas where there are more at risk children should have more money and teachers than the wealthier school districts imo. But that would happen only over the dead body of some soccer mom.  

As for the rich paying less taxes than you think. They may be able to do some tings and make their income look less, etc. but they still pay more sales tax and property taxes. Plus I wasnt really talking about the rich I was talking about your YP low six figure types who tend to spend a lot of money and generate wealth. A person who goes to Mathis Brothers and pays 5,000 for a couch or something is going to generate more taxes for roads, police, etc. than 250 people buying a 20 dollar chair at the thrift store.

I in no way think the river is going to be a panacea for all our problems.

There are a lot of things going on in this town that show promise and hope for turning things around.

The new colleges we finally have that are fleshing out and will begin attracting and keeping more of educated youth there.

The new health facilities and programs to help the poor. I think our new School superindendent is showing some promise.

Downtown reinventing itself in several areas and beginning to hopefully attract more urban dwellers,businesses, visitors, increasing population in areas that need help. (Might as well get people to move to areas where we already have infrastructure, your paying for those roads and cops to patrol them whether there are peple there or not.)

Both the colleges and downtown having synergies generating new businesses.

We have wanted something done with the river for a looong time. This plan isnt funding everything but its a very good start with a generous amount from donations and hopefully some major developers perched to do their thing.

All of these things, and more that are going on are going to really anchor the citiy, flesh it out. Its like we are going through a major transition and not doing it the easy way because we are coming out of a looong downturn at the same time. But when we come out on the other side of this... I hesitate to say it, but I think we are going to have a really wonderful city thats going to be good for everyone.

It seems before that we have wasted moments when things were just starting to get better with the economy to take some risks and make progress. Everything was ok, but then the over all economy faltered again and just as things were getting going here, all the planned developments and such never materialized and  we fell further than we had been before. Its not ok to just be ok. I am afraid of what will happen if we dont take chances this time. How much further will we fall when the economy starts to slide down this next time. And it will. You have to know that. We will end up losing more companies, more jobs, have worse roads, hurting the poor even more.  

The way people are complaining about things leads one to get the feeling that people dont realize we are right in the middle of what could be our last oil/energy boom time. Its a good economy right now.  These are the good times and you know what happens after that. We need to take advantage of it. You think the poor are hurting now, just wait. If we dont do anything differently this time what would make you think we wouldnt see yet further decline like we have the last several cycles? I would rather take some chances, and try to push ourselves up a notch rather than continue to just let things, "go with the flow", let everything just meander along as we usually do hoping natural development will be good enough. That wont make the city any more special than any other city. Any place can do that. Its those extra things that take more work and effort that seperate you from the crowd. The sacrifices of the moment that can pay off continuously in the future.

[shadows]

I cannot recall any nation, country, county or city that has taxed or bonded themselves into prosperity.  

If there is clientele available in sufficient numbers to buy $300 dollar meals there would be a land run by the private sector to the river banks to install restaurants and associated business.   It is the private investor who takes the risk and after all the ballyhoo is over then it becomes a calculated risk on the billfolds of the investors.  

The river is not a viable location for a major building boom in the retail market.  They use of figures to convince the populist that there is a pot of gold attached to the revenue bonds that will be sold to start the development that has the hidden interest in millions of dollars making the total much more than is reported.   Money, as the city uses it is a commodity that has to be paid for.  (No sales taxes on that commodity)

While there is presumed a need to further tax the poor with limited incomes when many CEO’s live with all the perks such a free cars with expenses paid, leased tax exempt clothing, while we charge sales taxes on school supplies.  The city duplicates these perks in some city departments.  

It is better to complete the dreams we have started than to start more dreams.   We cannot stabilize any city budget until we find out if the dreams are going to produce the income that will be needed.   Look at the amount of road taxes collected on the sales of gasoline that is given back to the city to maintain its streets.  It is a shame it is eaten up by bloated salaries as the streets fall in ruins.

The Indian Nations has found a cash cow in their casinos which has opened the doors to the courts on their claims to the river.  With this new windfall there may be several old treaties from the “trail of tears” area that may need to be addressed when the river is used for profit.

We are rolling the dice on the 2025 issue.  Lets wait and see if we come up with a pair of sevens.

As the country boy would say when looking at the arena “Wonder how much hay it would hold”.

[USRufnex]

Many of you had your way in the 90s on civic projects and Tulsa suffered for it.  When you weren't looking, more and more Tulsans left this city...  

We're talking about a 1/4 of a cent per dollar tax here.

For Shadows to link a pretty expensive river project to every societal problem and meander over all sorts of historical crappola he thinks he knows about, Mr. Shadows has engaged in pure lunacy...

I've lived in Chicago long enough to know BS when I see it... and it's no surprise that  Hometown has fallen for it...

The combination of Shadows' ramblings and Friendly Bear's conspiracy around every corner  is taking me from the uncommitted catagory to supporting this "river tax."

[Oil Capital]

I see a lot of talk about these river projects somehow bringing in new development and raising our tax base.  But how exactly will these projects do this?    Do we actually know what the $60 million of property acquisition is for?  Do the plans include space along the river for retail and entertainment development?  Where can I find more details?  The descriptions I see in the Whirled don't explain very much and leave me leaning against the proposal because all I see is getting water flowing in the river and some undefined property acquisitions...

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

I see a lot of talk about these river projects somehow bringing in new development and raising our tax base.  But how exactly will these projects do this?    Do we actually know what the $60 million of property acquisition is for?  Do the plans include space along the river for retail and entertainment development?  Where can I find more details?  The descriptions I see in the Whirled don't explain very much and leave me leaning against the proposal because all I see is getting water flowing in the river and some undefined property acquisitions...

At the bottom of this page is a link to the Kaiser plan....

http://ww3.tulsachamber.com/news.asp?id=10&newsid=97

Here is the Arkansas River Corridor Master Plan. The Kaiser Plan is essentially the first phase of that over all Master Plan.

http://www.incog.org/ark%20river/default.htm

Here is a link that goes down into a little more detail of one small part of the Kaiser Plan and also gives some info about water flow and the dams.

http://www.incog.org/ark%20river/Reports/Tulsa%20Wave%20Final%20April%202007.pdf

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

I see a lot of talk about these river projects somehow bringing in new development and raising our tax base.  But how exactly will these projects do this?    Do we actually know what the $60 million of property acquisition is for?  Do the plans include space along the river for retail and entertainment development?  Where can I find more details?  The descriptions I see in the Whirled don't explain very much and leave me leaning against the proposal because all I see is getting water flowing in the river and some undefined property acquisitions...

At the bottom of this page is a link to the Kaiser plan....

http://ww3.tulsachamber.com/news.asp?id=10&newsid=97

Here is the Arkansas River Corridor Master Plan. The Kaiser Plan is essentially the first phase of that over all Master Plan.

http://www.incog.org/ark%20river/default.htm

Here is a link that goes down into a little more detail of one small part of the Kaiser Plan and also gives some info about water flow and the dams.

http://www.incog.org/ark%20river/Reports/Tulsa%20Wave%20Final%20April%202007.pdf

Thank you.  I look forward to spending some time studying those.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by shadows

I cannot recall any nation, country, county or city that has taxed or bonded themselves into prosperity.  

Not that I am for raising taxes for everything. If I had my druthers I would change some things in this plan to make it less costly. And perhaps there are some other ways to fund it that would cost less to the taxpayers as well.
And it does seem that the city relying so heavily on sales tax to fund things is problematic.

However in response to your statement. Oklahomans as we have said over and over, have the lowest tax burden of any state. We also have some of the worst roads and bridges, highest rates of; crimes of many types, divorce, poverty, homelessness, child abuse neglect and death, hunger, obesity, tobacco use, poor infrastructure,...

 http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2007/pf/0704/gallery.tax_friendliest/8.html

http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/topic/51.html


One ranking I have noticed is that Oklahoma has a high percentage of gov workers per population which would be interesting to look at. I dont think we should willy nilly just raise taxes. But we have always wanted something done with the river, the economy is looking up for Tulsa, we have some generous doners and some private developers ready to do their thing. We currently have some of the lowest over all taxes in the nation. Sounds like as good time to get the river and the roads done as any.