Vote Yes Commercials

[RecycleMichael]

quote:Originally posted by inteller
so you don't find it sad that they play dirty with commercials that are based on emotion instead of fact?  I mean, the "do it for the kids" angle is the sign of a desperate campaign.


and on another point....do the No River tax people get free commercial time?  They obviously can't afford to make a fancy commercial like this, but I thought there was a fairness act that gave equal air time to both sides on an issue.

I don't think the cute kid campaign implies any desperation on the vote yes campaign. The commercial also had senior citizens in it...they must be desperate to use both old and young...

I also am pretty sure that the vote yes commercials were not aired or produced for free. The vote no people have just as much opportunity to open their own wallets and pay for ads.

Your post says that the vote no people can't afford to make a fancy commercial. Why not?

[Tiny]

I think this is more accurate

Although this photo is not going to be how it is it's kinda cute. In the real futuristic photo there won't be a little striper to ask what happened to the good ole days except the ones that come through keystone dam.


I'm not saying that the flood control dams weren't necessary as they were and still are but when you slow the water flow of a successful striper spawning habitat the eggs will die ... you can mark my words on that ... once the zink dam is redesigned so that the striper can go through the dam and spawn by keystone dam they'll get stuck at zink dam and the others because the flow will be slowed enough that the eggs won't free flow in the water for the required three days. it'll take them about 6 hours to get from keystone dam to zink and then when they get in the deeper water they'll get stuck there or at any of the other dams they're putting in.

These dams going up don't have anything to do with me at all ... that doesn't mean that I shouldn't take a stand against something that is very wrong that will effect my friends. Every wildlife dept person I spoke with about these dams feel it's going to be bad for the striper so there's no need for me to second guess them. I'm not sure who spoke to you or who you listened to about this stuff because it's totally different from what I've heard ... incog isn't a good source for any impact on anything as far as I'm concerned ... to me they're about like these people that are saying this is good for the fishies like Gaylon Pinc who's acting as some king of authority on all this water quality stuff and environmental expert when he couldn't even name 5 species of fish that lived in the river at this meeting they had a while back. These guys they're getting to do these studies also have no clue. They seem to have searched for some knothead to do the studies that'll side with them instead of deliver the facts about damages these dams will cause. They're also falsifying the data to water flows at keystone saying that they're always released at a certain time so that tulsans never see any river flow ... this isn't very accurate either as I've pretty much lived down at the dam for years and they're never releasing at the same time very often or shutting them down at the same time either. Sometimes you can depend on them to be more accurate on their water flows but this is of little importance as it's not going to matter ... you dam up sewer water and that's what you're going to get is a sewer pond. They talk about the key to cleaner water is going to be the sand springs dam and it's going to be funny when there's not going to be near enough volume held around sand springs to insure a constant water flow for more than a few hours unless maybe they hold it back to 100 cubic feet per second or slower and then you're not going to be able to tell there's any water flowing at all ... the stinch is going to be really interesting because if they released say an equal amount of water compared to the flow of the sewage then the volume of water isn't going to be nearly enough to accomidate these sewer ponds. it's going to have to be a pretty substantial flow of water to do anything and when keystone dam is shut down for a couple days they'll have three massive sewer ponds with river walks around them and cafe's that no one can eat at due to the constant nose full of sewage. I've seen keystone dam stay off for a very long time ... for weeks at a time. what will they do when they can't run water to supply these dams with fresh water ... it's going to be all sewage. I kinda hope they do put these dams in just to see if my predictions come true ... they've got people working on these studies with their heads affixed with rose colored glasses so they can spout numbers and conditions that will correspond with their building plans.

the rich that are wanting this done may not use these facilities for themselves ... I don't expect they would ... they want to make money off them so they can own islands in the pacific ... they don't want their own playground in tulsa ... they're the ones that want to make money off of it.

These dams would be great for me as they'll let fish through once they're done or supposedly they would ... that's been my main gripe about zink dam but it's got a gate on it already that's supposed to let fish through ... they don't use it because they can't as it's been silted in for years. the only time the fish has been able to come over zink dam was in 1986 and 1993 ... fishing was great for several years after those floods because they hit just at the right time of year for the fish to come over ... the average flathead caught below keystone then was about 30 lbs ... the average now is about 6 to 8 lbs ... the flathead I'm holding in that picture was caught below keystone dam. but like I said ... the dams would be great for me as I'm a catfisherman and they won't hurt me one little bit ... the taxes won't hurt me either except if I go to basspro and buy something ... it's 100% good for me as a catfisherman and 0% bad for me ... but you can flip those numbers for striped bass and hybrid production ... what they should do is go in and blow zink dam up like they did that other one and leave it like that then get the corp to schedule constant release from keystone so that tulsa can have their water 24/7 like they want and that won't cost ya'll anything. better management of the water and generation from the dam would give tulsa all the water they needed for their walkways and what not. get rid of zink dam and it's great for the fish and everything else ... build the least terns a big sandbox up there on the side of the bank and it's all good. then you don't have sewer ponds ... you got good water all the time and the riverbed full of water or at least covering all the sand bars ... dam them up and you get what you deserve.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear


Well at the 61st Street pedestrian bridge, I don't see any graphic effects of the GAS MASKS depicting on the pedestrians strolling over the Sewage Treatment Plant Overflow Ponds.......

Oooooh, what's that Smell??

Do you smell THAT smell??



[]

That's a picture of the low water dam. Last I checked those were in sand springs and jenks.

[waterboy]

This would all be great if you knew what you're talking about. You may know fishing but stay away from engineering, flood plain management and your analyses of wildlife preservation.

Two things tipped me off that you're not genuine. One is your constant reference to the river and the impounds as sewer water and sewer smell. Yet you fish in that water? No one who spends any amount of time up and down the river or any fluctuating lake would talk bs like that. I got news fella, lots of people run, walk, play, eat and drink around that lake you think is so smelly. And we don't smell any sewer. Maybe its the smell of your own selfish interest that is masking your true motives here. If you really believe its so bad why would you have anything at all to do with the area?

Secondly your ignorance of the flow management at the Keystone Dam. The figures on water release are public record on the internet. The Corps puts them out in several different ways. And they show water levels of the river since before the dam was built. Even you could look them up. www.waterdate.usgs. Last nite the river peaked at around 11,000cfs around midnight with a level of 7.3ft. Since the level started rising around 2pm that means the water was released from the dam in the morning around 8am.  They show historically what "they" have said is accurate. I check the website everyday and note the spike in water levels at the 11th street bridge as the dam releases arrive while Tulsans sleep. And strangely, those releases co-incide with electricity generation for peak hour usage in the area. Yes, there are non correlating releases that occur because of many different reasons.

I guess you're convinced they fake those numbers. Why? So those rich fat cats can kill stripers and make big money? How? How are people who are already rich, going to fleece the public with this plan? Kaiser could fund the whole damn thing himself and still be rich.

I suspect one of the anti-everythings around here enlisted you to share your vast knowledge of the river to help them in their crusade. Or that you are unwilling to share the river with the rest of the community that you think is just stupid and gullible. Many organizations, and educated people study this river closely with more than their nose and their fishing tackle. I'll take their opinions over yours right now.

[RecycleMichael]

Today's newspaper has a couple of fish guys say how the dams will be hard on fish.  I know these guys from the technical advisory committee and I respect their opinions. They want some different modeling done using low flow information from a bad year 2006, rather that the computer modeling traditionally done by the Corps of Engineers.

There is not a more harmful thing to the fish on this river than Keystone dam. When it was built 50 years ago we changed the Arkansas river forever.

These new dams are designed way better for fish. They will allow passage and keep water in the river.

2006 was a bad year for the fish because there was almost no water in the river. I believe that the new dams will help in the bad water years that happen every decade or so.

The simple solution is to make the furthest upstream dam hold more water so it could be released during dry times. I am sure that the engineers can design it to function and help keep water flowing on down river.

[NellieBly]

I noticed a new commercial airing this weekend. The first words were that a vote for the river means a vote for street improvements. Huh? They are confusing the issue by saying that the river money includes street repairs.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by NellieBly

I noticed a new commercial airing this weekend. The first words were that a vote for the river means a vote for street improvements. Huh? They are confusing the issue by saying that the river money includes street repairs.

It does... to riverside.

[MichaelBates]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael


I also am pretty sure that the vote yes commercials were not aired or produced for free. The vote no people have just as much opportunity to open their own wallets and pay for ads.

Your post says that the vote no people can't afford to make a fancy commercial. Why not?

This is a classic example of concentrated benefits and diffuse costs. A handful of construction companies and other businesses stand to make a lot of money from this and can justify contributing large amounts to make sure it passes. If you're going to get a contract for $50 million, a $50,000 contribution is no big deal. That's a buck for every thousand you stand to make.

The cost is spread out among all Tulsa County taxpayers, so that even a modest campaign contribution would be a significant proportion of the money someone would safe if the tax fails. If the tax is going to cost you $1,000, even a modest contribution of $20 is proportionally a much bigger share of economic benefit than what the construction company is contributing.

You see the same phenomenon in lobbying. It's worth paying for lobbyists if your company stands to make millions from a change to the tax law or the earmarking of a Federal contract. The cost of that benefit to a single company is spread out so broadly that no one person or company can justify funding a lobbyist on the other side. Public interest groups like Citizens Against Government Waste and Club for Growth help to aggregate opposition to these special deals, and often they're funded not from direct economic self-interest but from principle or passion.

The interplay of concentrated benefit and distributed cost also explains why elections for state auditor are dominated by contributions from abstractors and elections for state insurance commissioner are dominated by contributions from insurance companies and agents.

[MichaelBates]

quote:Originally posted by NellieBly

I noticed a new commercial airing this weekend. The first words were that a vote for the river means a vote for street improvements. Huh? They are confusing the issue by saying that the river money includes street repairs.

The claim in the mailer that hit this weekend is that if we spend $282 million now, we'll eventually have $85 million to spend on "basic services, like better streets and public safety." Even accepting their numbers, that's a pretty bad deal. It's like one of those alternative energy schemes that consumes more energy than it produces.

If we're going to raise taxes to improve basic government services, wouldn't it be more efficient to spend the money directly on basic government services?

[Vision 2025]

quote:Originally posted by NellieBly

I noticed a new commercial airing this weekend. The first words were that a vote for the river means a vote for street improvements. Huh? They are confusing the issue by saying that the river money includes street repairs.

I had nothing to do with those ads but in my opinion it is a simple concept:  

Do projects which are highly likely to grow the economic base of Tulsa County.  The river projects do this by making us a more attractive community to a larger region, to ourselves (pride is contagious take in a Jenks-Union game sometime), to visitors, and ultimately to new employers and you create a larger permanent revenue stream to maintain Tulsa's relatively finite needs (The City of Tulsa is not significantly growing geographically) making the street problem and other issues finite.  

We are making an excellent start with Vision 2025 and the River project (in my opinion) completes a missing piece for the long term economic health of the entire metropolitan region.  

The other solution to the City of Tulsa's (and other community’s financial problems like streets and needing more cops is more taxes for government operations... all in favor?  

I wonder if those leading the against movement will knock others down to march out front for a “let's grow government operations tax” which is the only other viable long term solution available to the City of Tulsa unless of course you just like to complain and be against which if that is the case keep up the good work because decay is your friend.  

[Vision 2025]

quote:Originally posted by twizzler

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

Kinda neat. "stolen from Tulsa World Sunday Opinion article"







One thing though.... If thats the Living River Dam and pedestrian bridge/restaurant. Where is the kayak and canoe part? I am guessing its cut off in the lower left foreground. The river seems to be flowing from left to right according to the dam structure so we are looking at the East Bank. Just where is this pedestrian bridge(street wise) and what is that bridge in the background? And its supposed to be a sunset, we are looking east, its apparently spring or early summer. Would the moon be there in that phase at that time? I cant possibly vote for this plan if they cant even get the moon in the right position. []

The opinion article mentions those graphics are an 'artist's rendering'. We all know how well artists can embellish reality. [8D]

That is "a" concept plan for the Sand Springs Dam/Bridge developed (not by me) by an artist.  Technically, the lighting in such circumstances would likely be by programable LED and the river orientation there is more E/W so does that make the moon location better for you?

[MichaelBates]

quote:Originally posted by Vision 2025


The other solution to the City of Tulsa's (and other community’s financial problems like streets and needing more cops is more taxes for government operations... all in favor?  

I wonder if those leading the against movement will knock others down to march out front for a “let's grow government operations tax” which is the only other viable long term solution available to the City of Tulsa unless of course you just like to complain and be against which if that is the case keep up the good work because decay is your friend.  

So here are two options:

(1) Raise county taxes by 0.4% for seven years -- $282 million. Pay a bunch of it to Manhattan Construction, Flintco, Kirby Crowe's PMg (program management), and John Piercey (bond financing). Eventually generate enough economic activity to bring in $85 million (county wide, not all of it in Tulsa) that can be used for fixing streets, hiring cops, and putting water in the city's pools.

(2) Raise city taxes by 0.4% for seven years. I think the rule of thumb is $70 million per penny of city sales tax? So that's $196 million over seven years. The $196 million goes directly to fix streets, hire cops, and put water in the city's pools.

Both approaches involve the same cost to taxpayers -- 0.4% sales tax. One would bring in $196 million to fund basic government services. The county approach would bring in "as much as $85 million" to fund basic government services.

Which would be a better deal for the citizens of the City of Tulsa?

Which would be a better deal for Kirby Crowe?

[swake]

Michael,

I don't think cities are allowed to levy more than two cents for operational needs. More than that I have been told would require a change in state law.

Cities can levy an income tax for operational needs, but that would require an approval vote of the people and would never pass.

The county used to give two mills of property tax to the cities, but stopped doing so when the county was broke a decade or so ago. The feds also used to give several million dollars a year to maintain roads, but stopped that 10 or 15 years ago.

Those two changes got us to where we are today, along with the growth of retail in the 'burbs and internet shopping bypassing sales taxes.

 And it's not just Tulsa, it's every city in the state. But, big cities with urban issues have higher costs to run, so Tulsa and Oklahoma City are hurt worse. Oklahoma City actually collects less money on a per penny, per capita basis than Tulsa. of course they have even fewer cops per capita than we do that make even less and they have no public pools, a weaker parks system and even worse rated roads.

[pfox]

That is the Sand Springs Dam... the Whitewater Park is near the 31st St Ped bridge...

[Double A]

Why should we trust anything coming from the pro river camp at this point, if the information they are relying on to come up with these delusional outcomes that this new tax will generate is as reliable as the corps study on the environmental impacts of these low water dams?