Tulsa Crime

[cannon_fodder]

if I recall correctly (I stand to be corrected) it is not that we excel at education or income levels, but cities with similar or worse stats in those areas (Albuquerque nor El Paso are educated or wealthy).

I'm not meaning to gripe.  I'm just frustrated by a ton of things in Tulsa lately.

[cynical]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

We have been through this converstation before trying to find what causes our area to be high crime, high divorce rates, suicide, high drug use, high rates of child abuse and neglect, high rates of hunger, obesity, poor health, tobacco use, etc. etc. etc. In just about every such category we rank down in the bottom 5 states.  

When I posited the usual suspects of low income levels and education...Cannon brought up a bunch of stats showing that we didnt do that poorly in those areas. So I dont know what the deal is. One can take other guesses... but its usually things that you cant politically change or people would get upset and angry about.

I've traveled to El Paso at least one time per year for the past 33 years.  I often swing by Albuquerque on those trips.  By most measures, both cities are poorer than Tulsa and under-perform educationally.  In one year when Jenks HS had 17 National Merit semifinalists and BTW had a bunch, (2000, I think), the entire City of El Paso had 2.  No, it's not education.  

If you spend time in those towns, though, you detect something else.  It's activity.  El Paso, especially, is a busy place.  

El Paso is 78% Hispanic.  Albuquerque is about 44% Hispanic.  Tulsa County is about 7.6% Hispanic.  Do we need more Hispanics?  

Seriously.  To most Hispanic-Americans, "family values" is more than an empty slogan.  How El Paso escapes being a murder capitol with the huge gang war going on across the border is puzzling.  My guess is that the police there seem to know what they're doing.  But in Tulsa the "conservative" philosophy that prevails doesn't seem to translate much into behavior any more than it translates into competitiveness or economic growth.

Oklahoma City went through that stage a few years ago and seems to have grown out of it.  I actually saw an article on the NewsOK.com web site that described OKC as "progressive."  I'm glad I wasn't drinking coffee at the time.

[carltonplace]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelWayne_71

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Here's a coule of dirty little secrets that insiders here talk about. One is that Tulsa is geographically well located for drug trafficking. We have all the infrastructure necessary without all the attention that Miami or LA demand. So, we are a good logistics site. Product arrives by interstate and  private airports and is transported to the coasts and the midwest with little interruption. Ever think about how busy our little airports are and why? OKC is good too, but far less hassle in lil ole Tulsa and we're so easy to live in. The major players are gangs from the coasts and they are moving here. There is friction. Yet sociologically we are unprepared for the havoc this industry brings anymore than we were prepared for the downside of casino gambling. Our reputation as a city that operates like a town is well known. We simply don't face problems head on. We refused to believe that gangs were even here till late in the 90's.

Two, local authority is rumored to be easily bought, unethical attorneys are voluminous and hungry. These are the same criteria that made us a haven for illegal immigration too.

I'll take the risk and point out what the four obstacles to progress are that collide in Tulsa: Casinos, loss of major oil industry, Fundamentalism and drug trafficking. They all combine to suck up the bulk of disposable income and tax revenues. And since Tulsa has such wide disparity in income levels its doubtful the average person in leadership circles is even aware of the relationships forged by being poorly paid and educated. They just want to build more jails.

Doubt there's much data supporting my thesis. Who would want to document it? Certainly not the casinoes, religious extremists, authorities or drug dealers. Sorry for the rant. I'm pretty frustrated by the whole process and don't care anymore about niceties.

What is your issue with casinos? Isn't disposable income...err, disposable income?

I do alot of business with them & they seem to be honest & well organized.

I think waterboy's point is that the four groups he mentioned: radical religion, gambling, drugs and loss of our once core business contribute to keep the down-trodden the down-trodden.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

quote:Originally posted by MichaelWayne_71

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Here's a coule of dirty little secrets that insiders here talk about. One is that Tulsa is geographically well located for drug trafficking. We have all the infrastructure necessary without all the attention that Miami or LA demand. So, we are a good logistics site. Product arrives by interstate and  private airports and is transported to the coasts and the midwest with little interruption. Ever think about how busy our little airports are and why? OKC is good too, but far less hassle in lil ole Tulsa and we're so easy to live in. The major players are gangs from the coasts and they are moving here. There is friction. Yet sociologically we are unprepared for the havoc this industry brings anymore than we were prepared for the downside of casino gambling. Our reputation as a city that operates like a town is well known. We simply don't face problems head on. We refused to believe that gangs were even here till late in the 90's.

Two, local authority is rumored to be easily bought, unethical attorneys are voluminous and hungry. These are the same criteria that made us a haven for illegal immigration too.

I'll take the risk and point out what the four obstacles to progress are that collide in Tulsa: Casinos, loss of major oil industry, Fundamentalism and drug trafficking. They all combine to suck up the bulk of disposable income and tax revenues. And since Tulsa has such wide disparity in income levels its doubtful the average person in leadership circles is even aware of the relationships forged by being poorly paid and educated. They just want to build more jails.

Doubt there's much data supporting my thesis. Who would want to document it? Certainly not the casinoes, religious extremists, authorities or drug dealers. Sorry for the rant. I'm pretty frustrated by the whole process and don't care anymore about niceties.

What is your issue with casinos? Isn't disposable income...err, disposable income?

I do alot of business with them & they seem to be honest & well organized.

I think waterboy's point is that the four groups he mentioned: radical religion, gambling, drugs and loss of our once core business contribute to keep the down-trodden the down-trodden.

Yes, and their large growth contributes mightily as an obstacle to the city progressing. Simply put, those four keep city tax collections low, commercial growth low and social costs high.

Medical, non profits (social services), call centers and miscellaneous. These are the largest headings in the employment section of the Sunday World. Largest advertiser is Creek Nation and other Casinoes. That sort of defines where we are right now.

[TUalum0982]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Alum:  I agree and understands stats can be skewed.  But it seems unlikely that Tulsa would for some reason report twice as many crimes per capita without there being some correlation with reality.  If that is the case, we need to change our reporting scheme to bring it in line with the rest of the nation.

Appearance is as important to an engineer in Detroit considering El Paso or Tulsa as a new home - and it appears El Paso is the much safer city.  In fact, other than the stats it is very hard to get a good feel for it.  You can live in a high crime area and not be a victim, or you can live in rural Oklahoma and see your daughter gunned down for no reason.  Statistics are what we have to rely on to see the bigger picture, if ours are skewed they should be corrected.

Still the cities problem.

this somewhat explains I guess:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_statistics

none the less, I agree.  I have lived here all my life and I have always thought that we had a high crime rate...most notably murder, rape, and armed robbery for a city of our size.

[sauerkraut]

I'm surprised crime is so high in "T" Towne, Columbus, Ohio also has higher crime rates than normal if you compair the city with others on "Monster Moving" or on other city compairson web sites. Memphis, TN is king for auto theft as is Phoenix. The D/FW MetroPlex has alot of crime, parts of Arlington that were nice in the 1980's are like dumps today. The Indian Creek Apratments were I lived were nice back in 1984 today it's full of section 8 housing and crime and drug ridden.[xx(]

[sauerkraut]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

if I recall correctly (I stand to be corrected) it is not that we excel at education or income levels, but cities with similar or worse stats in those areas (Albuquerque nor El Paso are educated or wealthy).

I'm not meaning to gripe.  I'm just frustrated by a ton of things in Tulsa lately.

The crime reports should always be listed as rates per 100,000 population to be accurate. Some cities are larger than others so they would have more crime. Albuquerque is kind of high in drug-related crimes.

[MDepr2007]

People do not care about you or your property . Morals are not as prevelant as years ago and now many don't feel bad for what they do, it's nothing to them.
Then some watch our leaders and learn from them eckkkk []
gee just look around here [)]

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by MDepr2007

People do not care about you or your property . Morals are not as prevelant as years ago and now many don't feel bad for what they do, it's nothing to them.
Then some watch our leaders and learn from them eckkkk []
gee just look around here [)]

The point is... Why are OUR morals not as prevalent as they supposedly are in other, lower crime, cities? Why dont people feel bad for what they do here? We live in the buckle of the bible belt with a church on just about every corner.

Also, as per casinos, just as you can point to some crimes occuring because they exist, that doesnt point to the reason as to why so many people choose to go to them and think they are going to get rich. If only the seriously addicted went, I doubt that they would do as well as they do. Its like saying fast food joints cause bad health and obesity. Sure some people are naturally "heavier" and would be regardless,,, but that can in no way account for why 25% or more of us are!? The crime was higher in these parts BEFORE the casinos got here, but that doesnt explain why so many people flocked to them when they came. There is still something fundamentally different about this area and the way people live, act, think, reason, that makes us different and have so many worse problems.


There seems to be an undercurrent of meanness that hides right behind the "howdy". There is the "welcome brother smile" that turns ugly when the person finds out you dont think or believe exactly as they do, a propensity towards "magical thinking".

I think some of that comes from the particular and predominant strains of Christianity we see in these parts. I have noticed that even though there are different strains of Christianity here,,, many of the different "types" are more similar to each other, and are actually more different than their counterparts in other parts of the country. Some of the Methodist churches here can be more fundamentalist, pentecostal, conservative than Baptist churches in other parts of the country.

Throughout our history there have been battles between different strains of Christianity.  Baptists were literally tortured and killed. Pentecostals would likely have their tongues cut out for "speaking in tongues" in certain areas. And cultures and societies emerged from those different Christian traditions, each taking on different characteristics that could be said to have an influence even today. Bostonian religious and societal attitudes will be different than Minneapolis Minnesota, those different from here, those different from El-Paso, Salt Lake City, etc.

Even those who arent avid church goers in a community, still pick up on and can reflect the prevailing attitudes, priorities, etc. And like finds like, where you get a perpetuating cycle of the people making and influencing the kinds of churches, the churches influencing people... And you cant deny that religion is a BIG part of this community. It HAS to have a major influence on the kind of society we find ourselves in here.

[Wilbur]

Two points:

1.  Tulsan's complain more about their roads then their crime rate.  Until that changes, your elected officials are going to throw more money at roads then they throw at crime.

Of Tulsa's 826 police officers, only 770+ are actually available to 'work'.  That 826 number includes officers in training (you can't use those), those who are away on military leave (you can't use those) and those who are injured/pregnant, ........ (you can't use those).

[cannon_fodder]

Wilbur, that could be a problem of comparing apples to apples then - are the other cities including those or not?  Why is there no good data on police, crime rates, and demographics?  I thought it would be an easy FBI crime database search.

But hey, it's good to know the $2tril or so we spent on the war on drugs means my boy will never smoke pot...  might get raped, mugged, or murdered, but surely not smoke pot.[xx(]

[TUalum0982]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Wilbur, that could be a problem of comparing apples to apples then - are the other cities including those or not?  Why is there no good data on police, crime rates, and demographics?  I thought it would be an easy FBI crime database search.

But hey, it's good to know the $2tril or so we spent on the war on drugs means my boy will never smoke pot...  might get raped, mugged, or murdered, but surely not smoke pot.[xx(]

Everything is a tradeoff CF!! all kidding aside, I agree with you.  But from what I have come to understand, the number of officers that the cities say they have, are actually sworn officers....they don't break them down into who can actually work, who cant, who is on military leave, who is out on medical leave, etc etc.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by MDepr2007

People do not care about you or your property . Morals are not as prevelant as years ago and now many don't feel bad for what they do, it's nothing to them.
Then some watch our leaders and learn from them eckkkk []
gee just look around here [)]

 

The point is... Why are OUR morals not as prevalent as they supposedly are in other, lower crime, cities? Why dont people feel bad for what they do here? We live in the buckle of the bible belt with a church on just about every corner.

Now that is a good question. I'm not sure the case is made that other cities are any different in make-up than ours. It could be a case of more effective leadership, policing, income distribution, drug use etc.

Also, as per casinos, just as you can point to some crimes occuring because they exist, that doesnt point to the reason as to why so many people choose to go to them and think they are going to get rich. If only the seriously addicted went, I doubt that they would do as well as they do. Its like saying fast food joints cause bad health and obesity. Sure some people are naturally "heavier" and would be regardless,,, but that can in no way account for why 25% or more of us are!?

You either believe in the power of marketing and advertising or you don't. The biggest advertiser in Tulsa other than groceries and cars is....Casinoes. They don't necessarily create addiction, they expose it and enable it. It is like fast food marketing in many ways. If that is the predominant offering in your market and it is heavily advertised then your market is going to be 25% overweight. Tulsa has long been referred to as the fast food, convenience store capital of America. Here's a little insight as to why. THEY ARE VERY PROFITABLE! The explosion of franchises of all types in Tulsa starting in the late 70's, is a testament to the economic savvy or our investment class. Tulsa also has extremely high car ownership per capita rivalling LA. No surprise then that we suffer more of the problems associated with obesity, gambling, auto theft and credit abuse.

Look at HOW they advertise to explain WHY so many people attend. They show winners, they show sophistication, they show excitement and they show comeraderie. Who wouldn't want to be part of that? How long would they survive if they showed the public the reality which is despair, gambling addiction support groups, burglary, robbery and heavy smokers? Or that out of every dollar spent at a casino, 98 cents stays with the casino?

The crime was higher in these parts BEFORE the casinos got here, but that doesnt explain why so many people flocked to them when they came.

I don't know why you think this is true. Tulsa is not historically a high crime area. Having lived here as an adult both before and after the explosive growth of casinoes, I would assert the opposite is true and more logical. They flocked to them because they were promoted, advertised and something new and different. Of course people found them inviting.

If anything differentiates Tulsa demographics from other communities our size, it could be explained by our younger than natl. average age of 35yrs old according to census data. To me its just the nexus of the four elements I detailed. Crime proliferates where there is perceived injustice, inequality, widely disparate income distribution, substance abuse and a wide disparity in education. Moral values seem to make little difference.

[sauerkraut]

quote:Originally posted by MDepr2007

People do not care about you or your property . Morals are not as prevelant as years ago and now many don't feel bad for what they do, it's nothing to them.
Then some watch our leaders and learn from them eckkkk []
gee just look around here [)]

It could be from changing cultures and new commers to our cities that are making alot of the changers. Why are high schools getting more  dangerous as years pass and require metal dectectors and cameras that they did not have have years ago? I'm a high school grad of the 1970's and we never had school lockdowns, metal dectectors/cameras in the schools. What has changed in our schools since the 1970's? When I was in 2nd grade during show & tell a boy brought into class his dad's hunting rifle to show the class- Today that could never be done and the gun was kept all day on the coat rack shelf inside a 2nd grade classroom -hard to believe that. Another thing we had in the 1970's is during our Christmas concert the school band and chorus sang Christmas church songs, not so long ago in 1973. Today that church stuff is banned from public schools times really changed in my lifetime..

[cannon_fodder]

quote:What has changed in our schools since the 1970's?

A ton of things.  

1) I would point to a lack of parenting by many people.  Schools are not supposed to raise your kids, you are.  What happens at school doesn't stay at school.

2) Lack of enforcement.  I'm not advocating beating of children at school, but given that many parents don't care either why should a kid?  He can go to school knowing he can't get in real trouble there and go home and know they don't care either.

3) Everyone is a winner.  This shift in attitude has disrupted a decent pecking order in school.  No one can be a loser, everyone gets trophies, competition is bad.

Coupled with a social intolerance for any sort of conflict nothing gets worked out o the school yard anymore.  "Back in the day" Johnny would lip off to Billy, and someone would get popped.  End of it.  Now it festers for years and a gun gets brought in to the mix.

4) Tons of changed with the schools themselves too:  There is a stronger teachers union, so we can't fire teachers that are worthless.  Busing programs have mixed otherwise non-neighborhood kids together while self segregation has increased tension in other areas (not necessarily racial).  Too many parents have become whining little scabs who assume their kid is right and the teacher is wrong.  

Our response to any and all of this?  We've thrown money at it.  We have more money per pupal than ever before, and we are not getting the results.  

Bah, I had better end this somewhat tangential rant.
- - -

I do not believe because our schools are no longer indoctrinating children they have all turned into criminals.  It seems the 18 hours a day and the other 180 days of the year parents should be able to instill values into their children just as well as they always have.  Especially in the bible belt.

But alas, godless Portland has a lower crime rate and better schools than the buckle of the bible belt.  So there goes that theory.  Unless god hates Tulsa and loves Portland I'd there are serious flaws in that theory (and/or he's Catholic and that's why he favors El Paso).