Your Federal Government Shutdown Thread

[swake]

I guess that wasn't fair.  What I meant is that no one is discussing the repercussions of our current spending path.  Sure, it's a political football as it usually is, and the everyone is wrapped up in the drama, but not the reality.

The 100 billion savings in Obamacare has already been reveled to be untrue.  Sebelious admitted in March that $500 billion was double-counted, and the CBO has revised it's estimates.  We cannot afford Obamacare any more than we can afford anything else at this point.  Ryan's budget is not draconian, it's flaccid.  We have to do far more, but both the Democrats and the Republicans realize that it is easier to get things done in a crisis, so I am convinced that they will provide lip-service until there is a crisis that gives them license to act.

I am deeply upset with the new Republican leadership.  They were elected to do what needs to be done and they are playing the same games as the democrats, beholden to the same sacred cows.

While we certainly could cut some spending, especially defense spending, we don’t really other than the stimulus have a big spending problem. As we continue to recover from the recession the deficit will drop somewhat without any action on taxes or spending. So let’s look at the numbers aside from the recession.

In 2000 we had a stable economy and a basically balanced budget. Taxes as a percentage of GDP were at 12.7%. When Bush took office he cut taxes (and increased spending with his wars) so that by 2007 (before the recession) we were running an annual deficit of ~500 billion per year. Today taxes as a percentage of GDP are all the way down to 8.5%. If we were to raise taxes to 2000 levels (which were lower than taxes in 1988 when Reagan left office) we would increase revenue by .6 trillion dollars, which would more than cover what the deficit was pre-recession.

To compare, China is booming with a tax rate of 9.9% of GDP, as is Germany with 11.8% GDP. The UK has a tax rate of 28.5% GDP and France is at 21.4%. The country with the highest standard of living in the world is Norway whose tax rate stands at 28.2%. We have a long way to go with taxes before they become onerous and hurt the economy and if the last 10 years have proven anything, it’s that lowering taxes is not a good driver of economic growth.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/GC.TAX.TOTL.GD.ZS

http://www.marketingcharts.com/topics/europe/un-norway-has-best-standard-of-living-niger-worst-10652/

[Red Arrow]

I am deeply upset with the new Republican leadership.  They were elected to do what needs to be done and they are playing the same games as the democrats, beholden to the same sacred cows.

Think there might be some one term legislators?

[Red Arrow]

To compare, China is booming with a tax rate of 9.9% of GDP, as is Germany with 11.8% GDP. The UK has a tax rate of 28.5% GDP and France is at 21.4%. The country with the highest standard of living in the world is Norway whose tax rate stands at 28.2%. We have a long way to go with taxes before they become onerous and hurt the economy and if the last 10 years have proven anything, it’s that lowering taxes is not a good driver of economic growth.

We can't let Norway be ahead of us. Let's raise our tax rate to 40% and leave them in the dust.

NOT

[we vs us]

While we certainly could cut some spending, especially defense spending, we don’t really other than the stimulus have a big spending problem. As we continue to recover from the recession the deficit will drop somewhat without any action on taxes or spending. So let’s look at the numbers aside from the recession.

In 2000 we had a stable economy and a basically balanced budget. Taxes as a percentage of GDP were at 12.7%. When Bush took office he cut taxes (and increased spending with his wars) so that by 2007 (before the recession) we were running an annual deficit of ~500 billion per year. Today taxes as a percentage of GDP are all the way down to 8.5%. If we were to raise taxes to 2000 levels (which were lower than taxes in 1988 when Reagan left office) we would increase revenue by .6 trillion dollars, which would more than cover what the deficit was pre-recession.

To compare, China is booming with a tax rate of 9.9% of GDP, as is Germany with 11.8% GDP. The UK has a tax rate of 28.5% GDP and France is at 21.4%. The country with the highest standard of living in the world is Norway whose tax rate stands at 28.2%. We have a long way to go with taxes before they become onerous and hurt the economy and if the last 10 years have proven anything, it’s that lowering taxes is not a good driver of economic growth.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/GC.TAX.TOTL.GD.ZS

http://www.marketingcharts.com/topics/europe/un-norway-has-best-standard-of-living-niger-worst-10652/

Word.

[we vs us]

We can't let Norway be ahead of us. Let's raise our tax rate to 40% and leave them in the dust.

NOT

C'mon now.  That's just silly.  Who's suggesting a tax rate that high . . . aside from you and Gaspar?

"Well if an apple a day keeps the doctor away, what if I ate five HUNDRED apples a day?  What then, you smarty pants liberals! Defend THAT"

You usually have good arguments, but c'mon now. 

[nathanm]

FIFY

No, you broke it. Ryan's budget relies on some pie-in-the-sky economic projections. It also relies on tax cuts somehow increasing overall revenue. Didn't work for Bush. Didn't work for Obama. Yet here we are, still having half the country parroting an ideology that doesn't reflect reality. It's like we've forgotten how to learn.

The fact of the matter is that we can do two things to fix the deficit: Eliminate nearly the entirety of federal discretionary spending or we can raise taxes. That's how much in the red we are between all the irresponsible tax cutting (I include Obama's tax cuts in this..less irresponsible doesn't mean responsible) and the faltering economy.

Austerity isn't working in other countries, but apparently we're special. The one everyone points to, Germany, has enacted an austerity plan, but like HCR, it hasn't actually come into effect yet. In countries that have gone down the road of austerity, their economies are continuing to worsen.

Here's the thing. Nobody gives a flying love if we spend beyond our means, as long as we have a plan to keep the deficit to a dull roar at some point in the future. If investors did care, interest rates on Treasuries would be much higher. The financial markets want a plan, they don't want us to destroy the economy. Of course, they actually understand reality. Ideology is worthless to them because it loses them money.

[Red Arrow]

C'mon now.  That's just silly.  Who's suggesting a tax rate that high . . . aside from you and Gaspar?

OK, I'll say in something hopefully even you can understand.

China: higher taxes, doing great
Germany: higher taxes doing great
Not so sure about UK and France.
Norway: higher taxes, greatest standard of living
No indication of diminishing returns to the concept of higher taxes creates a better economy and higher standard of living.

So I intentionally exaggerated to make the point that there is a limit.  Evidently you missed it or chose to rag on me a bit.

[carltonplace]

Instead of both sides insisting on protecting their sacred cows, simply cut all spending by a like percentage across every single government department and make them learn how to operate on less money.  That's the only way you can get around the politicking.  Well not all of it because it will be the awful Republicans tossing gubmint workers out on their ears, but at least the cuts are somewhat blind and not idealogical.

Thank you: this is reasonable.

[Gaspar]

Thank you: this is reasonable.

+100

. . .and we're back.  We would only need a 1% reduction to balance the budget in 4 years (the One Percent Plan).  If president Obama chose this path he would come out a hero.  Even if we just freeze all spending at the current level without any increase or decrease we will balance out by 2020.

Remember, we are talking about across the board cuts, and actual spending levels not estimated.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SKgoFaHFOU&feature=player_embedded#at=170[/youtube]

[Gaspar]

Instead of both sides insisting on protecting their sacred cows, simply cut all spending by a like percentage across every single government department and make them learn how to operate on less money.  That's the only way you can get around the politicking.  Well not all of it because it will be the awful Republicans tossing gubmint workers out on their ears, but at least the cuts are somewhat blind and not idealogical.

Don't peddle your wild libertarian craziness around here! 

We're talking politics, not common sense.

[guido911]

My gosh, has it really come to this on PP?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDHUfPQ17WU&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

Beck's response I got at Mediaite. Cut to the 5:00 when it gets hilarious and insightful (even for Beck).

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/glenn-beck-disses-lawrence-o%E2%80%99donnell-only-%E2%80%98hookers-depend-on-planned-parenthood/

[nathanm]

+100

. . .and we're back.  We would only need a 1% reduction to balance the budget in 4 years (the One Percent Plan). 

If you believe in magical fairies, anyway.

[Conan71]

Here's the thing. Nobody gives a flying love if we spend beyond our means, as long as we have a plan to keep the deficit to a dull roar at some point in the future. If investors did care, interest rates on Treasuries would be much higher. The financial markets want a plan, they don't want us to destroy the economy. Of course, they actually understand reality. Ideology is worthless to them because it loses them money.

It's obvious we don't have a plan to keep the deficit at a dull roar.  Raising taxes isn't popular, even for our Democrat President and the Dems in Congress when they were faced with repealing the Bush tax cuts.  Spending cuts don't seem to be very popular either.  Republicans want to cut spending but don't want to raise taxes, Democrats want to raise taxes but don't want to cut spending.

What's this grand plan we have to reign in the debt and deficit spending again?

[Cats Cats Cats]

1% reduction can do it.  It's a 1 percent reduction.  Plus the 3 % inflation(ish) with the increase in revenue that hopefully goes with that.

[Gaspar]

If you believe in magical fairies, anyway.

Constructive as usual.