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In_Tulsa
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« on: June 09, 2009, 10:57:34 am » |
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YoungTulsan
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« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2009, 01:16:55 pm » |
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With proposals for developments there (51st and Yale) as well as 41st and Harvard (the old Christmas tree lot), I-44 and Peoria (the torn down Camelot), and 61st and Yale (Warren Place) makes you wonder how in the hell all of them could possibly be supported by sufficient business.
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godboko71
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« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2009, 03:36:21 pm » |
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With proposals for developments there (51st and Yale) as well as 41st and Harvard (the old Christmas tree lot), I-44 and Peoria (the torn down Camelot), and 61st and Yale (Warren Place) makes you wonder how in the hell all of them could possibly be supported by sufficient business.
My only guess is they have long term plans to attract businesses. I think some of these developments would have been better with some element of residential (besides hotels.) We as a city really need to be more open to more urban living and denser development. |
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Thank you,
Robert Town
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FOTD
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« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2009, 04:51:03 pm » |
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My only guess is they have long term plans to attract businesses. I think some of these developments would have been better with some element of residential (besides hotels.) We as a city really need to be more open to more urban living and denser development.
If we were a socialist society, perhaps. But a development depends on several factors that often leads to what you see in the end. Paramount is financing, zoning, and demand. Unless you have a gazillion dollars. Then you can do as you so desire within the code. |
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godboko71
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« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2009, 05:01:35 pm » |
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If we were a socialist society, perhaps. But a development depends on several factors that often leads to what you see in the end. Paramount is financing, zoning, and demand. Unless you have a gazillion dollars. Then you can do as you so desire within the code.
pancakes: socialist society?  What on earth does that have to do with thinking more residential would have been good for some of these projects. With people come demand of services, the services provided by the other parts of the development and other near by developments. None of which has anything to do with a socialist society. Oddly enough true multi use developments happen all over this great capitalist nation. |
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Thank you,
Robert Town
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FOTD
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« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2009, 05:12:20 pm » |
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pancakes: socialist society? What on earth does that have to do with thinking more residential would have been good for some of these projects. With people come demand of services, the services provided by the other parts of the development and other near by developments. None of which has anything to do with a socialist society. Oddly enough true multi use developments happen all over this great capitalist nation. You're right...excuse my sarcasm. He with the most gold rules...... |
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godboko71
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« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2009, 07:08:47 pm » |
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You're right...excuse my sarcasm.
He with the most gold rules......
Ok I must be dense, are you trying to add to the conversation? What are your comments even directed to? What does many have to do with the comments in this thread? If its that developments take money, well that is a given. That said developers READ THIS FORUM, and it would be good if they knew that people thought, since, the businesses they will be attracting will have to be attracting our business. So from a developers stand point it makes since to develop what the people want and are willing to support. Me I like being able to live and shop in the same area and working in the same area is an even bigger bonus. I am sure their are plenty of like minded people out there. Why do you think we all support growth in downtown? Because not everyone wants to drive all the time, or if they do they don't want to drive to BFE all the time. Why do you think every time there is a housing boom at the edges of town soon after there is a commercial boom? Again I have no idea what your point is FOTD, I recommend one of your famous links that think for you, or trying to type out what you mean in a more clear way. This is in no way a personal attack but we can't read your mind. |
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Thank you,
Robert Town
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FOTD
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« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2009, 07:33:22 pm » |
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Ok I must be dense (sorry about that), are you trying to add to the conversation? What are your comments even directed to? (unrealistic expectations)
What does many have to do with the comments in this thread? (everything)If its that developments take money,(financing....money is too risky) well that is a given.
That said developers READ THIS FORUM (the smart ones pay no attention), and it would be good if they knew that people thought (does it matter?), since, the businesses they will be attracting will have to be attracting our business. So from a developers stand point it makes since to develop what the people want and are willing to support. (ridiculous...economics and demographics dictate the use and not the people's desire ie;Pine and Lewis)
Me I like being able to live and shop in the same area and working in the same area is an even bigger bonus. I am sure their are plenty of like minded people out there. Why do you think we all support growth in downtown? (who doesn't, but why growth? why not enhanced value?) Because not everyone wants to drive all the time, or if they do they don't want to drive to BFE all the time. Why do you think every time there is a housing boom at the edges of town soon after there is a commercial boom? (and don't forget "bust" as in that huge sucking sound on 71st)
Again I have no idea what your point is FOTD (see comments), I recommend one of your famous links that think for you, or trying to type out what you mean in a more clear way. This is in no way a personal attack but we can't read your mind.
The point is the demographics of an area dictate the course of development. The disposable income in the neighborhoods around 51st and Yale, aside from LaFortune Park is about $25,000. That will get the attention of dollar stores and Holiday Inns. Certainly, there is room for office. Just look at the Best Buy development on I44 for some clarity. (Was that a TIFF development?) This is Tulsa. It's not a field of dreams. |
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godboko71
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« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2009, 07:47:48 pm » |
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As for the Best Buy development, I hate to say it but I think it is the way it is do to poor planning and marketing. But yes demographics directly near the develops do dictate what is build for the most part. BUT better planning, better zoning, and better feed back all equal better developments for everyone.
Lets face it, this is Tulsa, a car town, that's fine, but we are big enough now to support and develop in such a way that lets people live densely and drive, we can have the best of both worlds, it doesn't HAVE to be one or the other. Again this is Tulsa people will drive to places if they have a reason, so, the demographics that decide what develops go where are a bit different here.
Take 41st Street, the mall, and the Best Buy development, with better planning, more midtown and east side residents would shop there over the 71st corridor, if it has the same things or better to offer.
Maybe Tulsa isn't perfect, but if we focus our efforts and stop stomping on people, maybe, just maybe we could get something done.
Forgive any typo's not slept in a few days. FOTD, thanks for putting thought into your reply much better then sarcasm.
As for smart people paying no attention to here, in a few years that I have been following his forum, allot of good has come from the collective feedback this forum provides to everyone. We may not all agree but that does not detract the good that has come from all of this.
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Thank you,
Robert Town
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YoungTulsan
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« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2009, 08:47:13 pm » |
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That Best Buy is such a horrible location, I can't see how they thought that would work. I'm sure the Best Buy does OK, but the rest of the place is empty and barren. Watch it become abandoned within the decade.
What we need is a city planner that will for every new commercial development require old areas to be cleaned up and turned into residential. All a new commercial development means is that the same dollars are going to shift from a current profitable commercial zone towards the new one, leaving the previous one abandoned and blighted.
I can MAYBE see a development involving a hotel drawing in more money from visitors, but most of these developments are just new shells for the hermit crab retail shops to move into, leaving the old ones to decay. Since we don't put value in savings or longevity, only in financing the next construction, everything becomes disposable.
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sgrizzle
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« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2009, 09:19:47 pm » |
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One of the anchors backed out of the best buy development. When they backed out, the outparcels backed out. No-one will fiill the small slots because the outparcels (restaurants) backed out. All this was right when I-44 construction hit.
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In_Tulsa
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« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2009, 06:49:16 am » |
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Talking about Midtown Village Shopping Center I think there is alot of money in that area. Look at the houses right behind Best Buy those are 140 to 200 thousand dollar homes. I think that area has alot of money if stores moved in.
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TheArtist
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« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2009, 08:14:54 am » |
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Yes, I think the mid-town village shopping center would do quite well. There has been a lot of infill within a short distance of that area, much of it more high end. As for the stuff by the highway. They took out several hotels and a lot of businesses. So basically the I44 and Yale project was replacing and updating some of what was lost. The Best Buy and that shopping center,,, I agree with sgrizzle, if it had had a couple restaurants I bet more of the center would have filled in. Personally I think the ticket would have been to have added a small hotel there as well. I would say add more living like apartments, but we tend to build apartment complexes that arent part of any street grid which seems to me to make it more likely that, when an apartment complex goes downhill, the WHOLE apartment complex and area around it goes downhill all at once and its very difficult to turn around. It can be especially tricky when you have a large grouping of several such apartment complexes. Versus if you have apartment buildings on a street, kind of like what you would find in European cities, or the old ones around Cherry Street,,, at least that gives you the opportunity to "chip away at the edges" and improve things one apartment building at a time. Plus they can just seem nicer, safer, and have more of a sense of community, are more pedestrian friendly, etc.
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"When you only have two pennies left in the world, buy a loaf of bread with one, and a lily with the other."-Chinese proverb. "Arts a staple. Like bread or wine or a warm coat in winter. Those who think it is a luxury have only a fragment of a mind. Mans spirit grows hungry for art in the same way h
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DTowner
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« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2009, 08:58:43 am » |
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Have to wonder how much timing is hurting the Best Buy development. Delays in starting I44 construction leave that spot pretty undesireable until road work is completed. Now the crashing of chain retail makes it even harder to fill up the many empty spots.
Perhaps the developer of the I44 & Yale location hopes to avoid the same mistake and will wait until I44 work is well under way so that it will be finishied when the development starts to come on line. In the here and now, however, that area has taken on a look of blight that cannot be good for the remaining businesses. Given its access to one of the busiest stretches of highway in the city, I'm not sure you can look at only the surrounding neighborhood incomes to determine what will work here.
I'm still puzzeled by the closing of Carrabba's. The chains on the east side of Yale seem to be doing just fine.
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