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Author Topic: will health care bill affect November elections?  (Read 35166 times)
Red Arrow
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« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2010, 11:02:29 pm »

Cashew, almond, pecan, walnut, filbert,......

Might as well be a classy nut.
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rwarn17588
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« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2010, 05:36:17 am »

Cashew, almond, pecan, walnut, filbert,......

Might as well be a classy nut.

Dang. Red beat me to it.
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rwarn17588
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« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2010, 05:38:57 am »

Yes. The GOP fell into the irrational and erratic hole dug for them by  http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=9385.0


So, is Rush moving on to Costa Rico where they have free health care, black market oxycontin, and hookers?

Does one of your personas know this by experience?
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we vs us
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« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2010, 06:21:35 am »

Why, you ask?  Mainly because there will be a tipping point when the number of direct employees, contract employees, people recieving various retirement, disability, social benefits including healthcare that the cost becomes unsustainable. Actually, we've arrived at that point. Now that the shock of the trillion dollar threshold has come and gone, all there is to do is wait and watch our credit rating slowly dive and we will be owned by foreign governments.  Call me nuts. Go ahead.

So I've been toying with this idea for awhile and finally someone mentioned it in "print."

"The significance of Obama's health legislation is more political than substantive. For the first time since Ronald Reagan told America government is the problem, Obama's health bill reasserts that government can provide a major solution. In political terms, that's a very big deal."

And that's what's been occuring to me over and over again.  It's no wonder that Obama's stirring up so much smile, and that people are so exercised over his "agenda."  His platform is a frontal assault on Reaganism, the core beliefs of which are so pervasive in our country as to be considered unquestionable truths about how the world works. 

I'm in my mid thirties, and I can't think of a time in my adult political life when it wasn't a given that any expansion of government -- regardless of intent or composition -- was a bad thing.  I can't think of a time where people who were on welfare weren't thought of as weak, or lazy, or as actively gaming the system.  I can't think of a time when the free market wasn't considered a mystical self-regulating force that could transform us if we'd just let it be more . . . self-regulating.  And as an addendum, anything government can do, private business can do better. 

I was discussing the HCR bill with some of my contemporaries at work and there came a point where some of my "liberal" ideas just left them with their mouths agog.  They couldn't believe I would support such a huge expansion of government, or give the welfare queens stuff they didn't deserve, or redistribute taxes.  But all of these arguments -- while they may seem like common sense -- all stem from cultural assumptions that were born with Reagan.   My contemporaries think it's self evident that these things are true; as people who've grown up with Reagan as a background, these aren't arguable, they're simply truths.   

Only they aren't.  They're ideological assertions.  But we've been swimming in them for so long that we take them as simply the way things are. 

You can see it in a certain type of Democratic congressperson (ahem, Blue Dogs, ahem) whose views are just a kinder, gentler form of being Republican. You can see it in Bill Clinton's presidency, where it became pretty evident pretty quickly that the only things he could get done were triangulations on certain Reaganist memes (ahem, welfare reform, ahem).  This is one of the reasons I think the D's have been so tangled up and confused by their own power; suddenly they've been called upon not only to advance an agenda, it's an agenda that contradicts a lot of their core assumptions about the world (markets don't need regulating; government should be shrunk; deficits are bad; welfare is a pox; etc). 

And I think this is why many people on the left consider Obama not just a promising president but something of a visionary.  Not necessarily for what he's done -- though he's really starting to amass a pretty solid record -- but for what he represents, which is an ideological challenge (and possibly the death knell of) Reaganism.  ie: government can be smart and even necessary; markets aren't perfect and need regulation; certain forms of government assistance can indeed be beneficial. 

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Red Arrow
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« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2010, 06:55:57 am »

all stem from cultural assumptions that were born with Reagan.  

They're ideological assertions.  

I don't believe they were born with Reagan, he just brought them to the forefront the same as Obama is bringing forward ideological assertions you prefer.

I don't believe government has no role in my life.  I want some protection from things I cannot protect myself from without help.  The obvious would be an invading army. Beyond that I do like things like food inspection.  Bridges that don't fall down because they are built to acceptable standards.  Police and fire service.  I also believe there are some good things in the new health care.  I believe in helping those who cannot help themselves. I do not believe in helping those who can but choose not to help themselves.


Edit: Washed my fingers and can't type a thing with them.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 07:00:00 am by Red Arrow » Logged

 
sgrizzle
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« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2010, 09:33:41 am »

They did vote against it, you know. All of them. Even though it's essentially the Romney plan that was implemented in Mass. It amazes me that the Democrats put forth an essentially Republican plan and had such a hard time passing it. It amazes me even more that the Republicans couldn't see the enormous gamble they were taking by not supporting what is mostly their plan.

That's like saying my wife's bike is a fire truck because they are essentially the same. They are both red, have wheels and can get you to a fire.

There are quote a few differences, I would rather see someone run a detailed compare/contrast article but every article I found was on one side or the other so here is from the "It's not the same" camp:

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=M2Y3NjUxZDRiNmNkZDI2NzI3ZGFhMjY1YTJiMTEyYTk=
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Conan71
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« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2010, 10:08:25 am »

So I've been toying with this idea for awhile and finally someone mentioned it in "print."

"The significance of Obama's health legislation is more political than substantive. For the first time since Ronald Reagan told America government is the problem, Obama's health bill reasserts that government can provide a major solution. In political terms, that's a very big deal."

And that's what's been occuring to me over and over again.  It's no wonder that Obama's stirring up so much smile, and that people are so exercised over his "agenda."  His platform is a frontal assault on Reaganism, the core beliefs of which are so pervasive in our country as to be considered unquestionable truths about how the world works. 

I'm in my mid thirties, and I can't think of a time in my adult political life when it wasn't a given that any expansion of government -- regardless of intent or composition -- was a bad thing.  I can't think of a time where people who were on welfare weren't thought of as weak, or lazy, or as actively gaming the system.  I can't think of a time when the free market wasn't considered a mystical self-regulating force that could transform us if we'd just let it be more . . . self-regulating.  And as an addendum, anything government can do, private business can do better. 

I was discussing the HCR bill with some of my contemporaries at work and there came a point where some of my "liberal" ideas just left them with their mouths agog.  They couldn't believe I would support such a huge expansion of government, or give the welfare queens stuff they didn't deserve, or redistribute taxes.  But all of these arguments -- while they may seem like common sense -- all stem from cultural assumptions that were born with Reagan.   My contemporaries think it's self evident that these things are true; as people who've grown up with Reagan as a background, these aren't arguable, they're simply truths.   

Only they aren't.  They're ideological assertions.  But we've been swimming in them for so long that we take them as simply the way things are. 

You can see it in a certain type of Democratic congressperson (ahem, Blue Dogs, ahem) whose views are just a kinder, gentler form of being Republican. You can see it in Bill Clinton's presidency, where it became pretty evident pretty quickly that the only things he could get done were triangulations on certain Reaganist memes (ahem, welfare reform, ahem).  This is one of the reasons I think the D's have been so tangled up and confused by their own power; suddenly they've been called upon not only to advance an agenda, it's an agenda that contradicts a lot of their core assumptions about the world (markets don't need regulating; government should be shrunk; deficits are bad; welfare is a pox; etc). 

And I think this is why many people on the left consider Obama not just a promising president but something of a visionary.  Not necessarily for what he's done -- though he's really starting to amass a pretty solid record -- but for what he represents, which is an ideological challenge (and possibly the death knell of) Reaganism.  ie: government can be smart and even necessary; markets aren't perfect and need regulation; certain forms of government assistance can indeed be beneficial. 



So, by your preferred economic model, how do we finance a burgeoning government expansion in a sustainable fashion?  What happens when more people depend on the government for income than the private sector?  How does the government create revenue by taxing it's own productivity?  Those models have not proven succesful where they've been tried, like the former Soviet Bloc.

"Most of the studies of the optimum size of government made by reputable scholars in recent decades have indicated that total government spending (federal plus state plus local) should be no lower than 17 percent, nor larger than about 30 percent of GDP. In a just completed paper, economists at the Institute for Market Economics in Sofia, Bulgaria, have provided new estimates of the optimum size of government, using standard models, with the latest data from a broader spectrum of countries than had been previously available. Their conclusion is that there is a 95 percent probability that the optimal size of government is less than 25 percent of GDP.

Because most governments are - and have been for many years - larger than the optimal, there are insufficient data to give a point estimate as to the best size, other than it is less than 25 percent. Other studies have shown small-population homogeneous countries, such as Finland, may have slightly higher optimal government sizes than heterogeneous countries, such as Switzerland and the United States.

The ramifications of this study and previous ones are important for the current debate going on in the United States and many other countries, about having the government spend more to "stimulate" the economy - i.e. create jobs and increase growth rates.

Rather than increasing the size of government, the empirical evidence shows that sharply reducing taxes, regulations, and government spending down to at least 25 percent of GDP would do the most to spur economic growth and create more jobs over the long run.

There is virtually no empirical evidence - in the United States or anywhere else - to support the belief of economists of the Keynesian school that a big increase in government spending will make matters better, rather than worse. Economists of the Austrian school have, in general, supported smaller government as a way to achieve higher levels of both prosperity and individual freedom, and the empirical evidence shows them to be correct.

In the United States, periods of rapid economic growth, such as 1983-89 and 1992-99, have been associated with a reduction in the total size of government. During the 1970s and much of the last decade, total (federal, state and local) government spending grew to a post-World War II record (36 percent), and these periods were associated with lower economic growth. In recent decades, many European countries have greatly increased government spending as a percentage of GDP, and as a result most of them experienced lower growth rates and much higher rates of unemployment than the United States."

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=9918
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Conan71
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« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2010, 10:11:13 am »

That's like saying my wife's bike is a fire truck because they are essentially the same. They are both red, have wheels and can get you to a fire.

There are quote a few differences, I would rather see someone run a detailed compare/contrast article but every article I found was on one side or the other so here is from the "It's not the same" camp:

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=M2Y3NjUxZDRiNmNkZDI2NzI3ZGFhMjY1YTJiMTEyYTk=

And I do believe that Democrats were in control of the House and Senate in Mass at the time this was passed.
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Red Arrow
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« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2010, 10:27:37 am »

 How does the government create revenue by taxing it's own productivity?  


Jimmy Carter promised during his campaign for the Presidency to raise Federal revenue by creating federal jobs and then generating federal income tax from those new jobs.

I didn't quite understand that.
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we vs us
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« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2010, 10:43:04 am »

Jimmy Carter promised during his campaign for the Presidency to raise Federal revenue by creating federal jobs and then generating federal income tax from those new jobs.

I didn't quite understand that.

Well, it's not all as circular as all that.  Hire Fed workers, pay them, and they spend their paychecks out in the world, thus stimulating the economy.  Presumably that stimulus would create jobs that would then pay income tax. 

Caveat: I don't know what he was talking about and wasn't really around for his stump speeches; I'm only walking through what I think he meant.
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Conan71
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« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2010, 10:47:40 am »

Well, it's not all as circular as all that.  Hire Fed workers, pay them, and they spend their paychecks out in the world, thus stimulating the economy.  Presumably that stimulus would create jobs that would then pay income tax. 

Caveat: I don't know what he was talking about and wasn't really around for his stump speeches; I'm only walking through what I think he meant.

Wait, isn't that precisely what Reagan did with "voo-doo" economics, only with an emphasis on private sector employment?

It's okay, President Carter didn't know what he was talking about either.  We are all in good company on that one.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 10:49:26 am by Conan71 » Logged

"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first” -Ronald Reagan
we vs us
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« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2010, 11:25:47 am »

Wait, isn't that precisely what Reagan did with "voo-doo" economics, only with an emphasis on private sector employment?

It's okay, President Carter didn't know what he was talking about either.  We are all in good company on that one.

It's less voodoo than Reagan.  He wanted the stimulus to make it into the economy through the rich.  Turns out the rich, among other things, are too few in number to make much of a dent on the economy.  And they don't spend efficiently.  They order one yacht, rather than keep buying groceries for a year. 

Not that I'm defending Carter here.  There aren't that many (in the grand scheme of things) federal workers, either.
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Red Arrow
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« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2010, 11:43:41 am »

Well, it's not all as circular as all that.  Hire Fed workers, pay them, and they spend their paychecks out in the world, thus stimulating the economy.  Presumably that stimulus would create jobs that would then pay income tax. 

Caveat: I don't know what he was talking about and wasn't really around for his stump speeches; I'm only walking through what I think he meant.

I was there (voting age too) but it was a long time ago so I don't remember all the details. 

If Uncle Sam hired someone at $100, Sam would get back approx $20 in direct income tax, leaving Sam $80 in the hole. 4 more jobs in the private sector at $20 each to Sam would make a break even.  It would actually be a few less jobs because, presumably the companies that hired the extra 4 workers would pay some more income tax.  I don't remember that happening.
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Red Arrow
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« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2010, 11:45:54 am »

Turns out the rich, among other things, are too few in number to make much of a dent on the economy. 

Then how can anyone expect them to pick up the tab for the economy by taxing the heck out of them?
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Gaspar
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« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2010, 12:27:07 pm »

From Kimberly Strassel in the WSJ

"President Obama was elected by millions of Americans attracted to his promise to change Washington politics. These were voters furious with earmarks, insider deals and a lack of transparency. They were the many Americans who, even before this week, held Congress in historic low esteem. They'll remember this spectacle come November."
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