Passenger Rail Set To Connect OKC, Tulsa

[dbacksfan 2.0]

The reason that I ask some of the questions about this, is having seen the rehab that a 134 mile route being rehabbed between Eugene and Coquille Oregon that feed to Coos Bay for all types of lumber products. The twenty mile stretch between the port at Coos Bay and Coquille took about a year to align the tracks and they replaced ~ 90,000 railroad ties to complete the project. Prices for the rehab of the total line have come in north of $31 million dollars, and the line was shut down in 2007. It has changed the lumber industry here, the mill in Coquille now runs about twenty hours a day, I can hear them cutting wood until 3AM. The big benefit is the lowering of the number of logging trucks running some of the highways.

I realize that this doesn't directly relate to passenger service, here or between Tulsa and OKC, but it does relate into the costs of maintaining and rehabbing existing lines.

http://www.portofcoosbay.com/newsreleases2013/042913fullrailopen.pdf

http://theworldlink.com/news/local/coquille-re-linked-to-rails/article_ce495f54-b103-11e2-9bcb-0019bb2963f4.html

http://www.rtands.com/index.php/freight/yards-terminals/port-of-coos-bay-completes-rail-line-restoration-moves-first-rail-shipment-in-five-years.html

http://www.naylornetwork.com/aap-nwl/articles/index.asp?aid=217472&issueID=33235

[dbacksfan 2.0]

To RDW, I have to ask, if this is the line that runs from Sapulpa to MWC that parallels Route 66 going through Bristow, Stroud and Chandler, with stops in those towns, during this pilot program, how long are the stops in those towns going to be? To have a ~ 2 hour trip, and stop in those three towns, the train would have to average 70mph between stops to achieve the ~2 hour time between Sapulpa and MWC. I'm not an expert, but I don't think that the line can support those speeds, and unless you are looking at a less than 5 minutes per stop, you can't achieve that time frame. The reason I ask is, in the mid 90's when there was for a time no construction on the Turner, I could make a run to Edmond from Pine and Memorial in Tulsa in ~ two and a half hours with a Pike Pass.

With the curves and crossings along the route that is from Google Earth to go from Sapulpa to MWC, and stops in Bristow, Stroud, and Chandler, especially if you have people taking the trip with luggage for an extended stay, it won't work.

You know, prove me wrong, and I will admit it. I just think that this is over ambitious.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

When you can take BART from Redwood Road and I-580 in Castro Valley to Donald D. Doyle Hwy and I-580 in 13 minutes, it's sad that you are driving at 70mph and you are being passed by BART train.

[Conan71]

So you're a criminal with a nice car who lives closer to the turnpike than I do! The speed limit is 75, it is 95 miles from my home near downtown and the toll is $4 each way. My Edge gets about 25mpg hwy at 75mph on low octane. Respectfully, you are not in the demographic for rail travel. At least not the rail travel being offered now in Sapulpa.

By staying under 80mph, my insurance company offers me up to a 15% discount on my premium. They know risk increases with speed. I have never been able to make that drive from one gate to the other in under 1hr 15 minutes (average 76mph with slowdowns and stops) and I've been making it since 1969. My son lives in Moore and drives like you. From my house, he can't make it there in less than 1hr 40 min. Of course I have to stop to pay the toll which adds a bit.

This current offering doesn't compare to regular turnpike driving. To me, that isn't the correct comparison to make. It is more suitable for special interest groups, daytrips, innovators, risk aversion personalities (think coach Madden), special events and fun seekers. The trip itself is the destination. It isn't everyday travel stuff. Considering it doesn't have the subsidies available for highways and turnpikes, I doubt it will be profitable. Hopefully it will stimulate some interest.

I think why we are all talking past each other is some of us are thinking of a rail line between Tulsa and OKC as a practical “commute” for business or whatever we regularly to to OKC for where we might need a car for multiple destinations.

If one is thinking of the rail line as an “excursion” train, as Red Arrow alluded to, that’s entirely a different subject.  If someone wanted the nostalgia or first experience of riding a passenger train to OKC then to spend a leisurely day in Bricktown and/or going to a Thunder game, that’s entirely a different purpose.

The main reasons MC or I would have to go to OKC would either involve work on our rent house in Midwest City or some sort of cycling event.  As far as doing work on the house there, we’d probably need a car to go back and forth to Lowe’s or HD.  However, it might be a novel thing for us to drive or even ride to Sapulpa, hop the train, assuming there is room for bikes, then cycle to our event and back in OKC.  Or even as a leisurely afternoon with the bikes down by the river or out at Heffner.  

That’s probably the competing mindsets, Aqua, “practical commute” vs. “excursion”.

I had no idea in Edge would get 25 on the highway. I’ve thought about getting one in the past. Is your’s a V6?

[PonderInc]

I hope this "proof of concept" is a raging success, and convinces the state that it would be incredibly stupid and short-sighted to sell the tracks we own.  I will definitely participate.

The idea, I assume, is to simply expose people to rail travel.  Even at the predicted speed of this train, it will be much more enjoyable than driving.  Trains are just better and more comfortable.  More space to move around; the ability to get up and go to a food/beverage car; the ability to read or work instead of driving.  Once people experience rail travel, they start to think differently about transit.  We have driven to St Lou just to take the train to Chicago.  It's about the same as driving time-wise, but you end up in the center of Chicago and don't have to pay $50 or more per day to park your car once your get there.

Now, imagine the benefits to Tulsa and OKC if the rails were improved and the train could travel at a faster speed, and provide a smoother ride with frequent service and affordable prices.  (Albuquerque to Santa Fe is $10 each way and runs 5 trains a day from 8am - 11:00 PM on weekends, and 12 trains a day from 4 am to about 9:00 pm on weekdays.) Technically, a high speed train could travel from OKC to Tulsa in 30-40 minutes.  Faster than driving to Owasso in rush hour traffic.  People in OKC would travel to Tulsa for dinner and a concert and vice-versa.  Also, I believe that more Tulsans would participate in state government if it weren't such an inconvenience to travel to OKC.  If you could hop on a fast train with wi-fi connectivity, it wouldn't mean losing an entire work day to participate as a citizen in our state government.  (It would definitely help Tulsa to be more connected to our state capital.)

Maybe true high speed trains are a pipe dream, but even slower trains should be able to match driving speeds, but with a lot of added convenience.  

Also, everyone who is calculating the "cost" to drive to OKC from Tulsa are not factoring in the cost of car ownership, insurance, wear and tear, maintenance, etc.  Remember there's a reason why for-profit corporations reimburse you 56 cents per mile to drive your personal car.  At that rate, it costs you about $60 each way to drive your car the 100+ miles to OKC.  Just sayin'.

Thanks to Rick Wescott for posting on this forum and providing more information about this concept.  Thanks also for your work as an advocate of rail in Tulsa!

[Conan71]

Red Arrow,  I really don't know.  I've read Iowa Pacific Holding's offer to ODOT, but I don't have a copy of it. I'll try to get an answer for you.

 I've read several reports on existing passenger service from all over the country and it sounds kind of counter-intuitive, but the greater the frequency of trains, the greater the number of passengers.  In other words, if there are 3, 4 or 5 round trips per day, there are more riders than there would be if there is only one or two round trips per day.  I first thought the additional trains would cannibalize from the first train or two, but it doesn't work out that way.

But, I'll try to get an answer to your question  It may take a day or two.

RDW

Rick,

Could you find out if they will have space for people to bring bikes on the train if that is their choice for commuting once they are at their destination? I know my wife and I would definitely consider that for weekend excursions as well as many other cyclists I know.

Re-reading your post, having stops in Bristow, Stroud, and Chandler are all a bonus, especially with multiple runs per day, as there are plenty of things to see and do in the smaller towns along the way.

[AquaMan]

I think why we are all talking past each other is some of us are thinking of a rail line between Tulsa and OKC as a practical “commute” for business or whatever we regularly to to OKC for where we might need a car for multiple destinations.

If one is thinking of the rail line as an “excursion” train, as Red Arrow alluded to, that’s entirely a different subject.  If someone wanted the nostalgia or first experience of riding a passenger train to OKC then to spend a leisurely day in Bricktown and/or going to a Thunder game, that’s entirely a different purpose.

The main reasons MC or I would have to go to OKC would either involve work on our rent house in Midwest City or some sort of cycling event.  As far as doing work on the house there, we’d probably need a car to go back and forth to Lowe’s or HD.  However, it might be a novel thing for us to drive or even ride to Sapulpa, hop the train, assuming there is room for bikes, then cycle to our event and back in OKC.  Or even as a leisurely afternoon with the bikes down by the river or out at Heffner.  

That’s probably the competing mindsets, Aqua, “practical commute” vs. “excursion”.

I had no idea in Edge would get 25 on the highway. I’ve thought about getting one in the past. Is your’s a V6?

I love my Edge. I started out looking for the Lincoln version of it because it had a higher state of trim, but now glad I went with the cloth trim and no skylights. We just drove it up and back to Minnie. She got 25, grandpa got 28. Rides like a bigger car than it is, and quite quick, though I think the ergonomics aren't so good. Handled snow very well without awd though it has some kind of ride stabilization system.

You guys summarized what i was trying to communicate. The train is the trip, it doesn't compare to the practicality and flexibility of everyday personal vehicles.

[brettakins]

Latest Info:

http://www.newson6.com/story/24324229/passenger-rail?autoStart=true&topVideoCatNo=default&clipId=9679776

[Gaspar]

I love my Edge. I started out looking for the Lincoln version of it because it had a higher state of trim, but now glad I went with the cloth trim and no skylights. We just drove it up and back to Minnie. She got 25, grandpa got 28. Rides like a bigger car than it is, and quite quick, though I think the ergonomics aren't so good. Handled snow very well without awd though it has some kind of ride stabilization system.

You guys summarized what i was trying to communicate. The train is the trip, it doesn't compare to the practicality and flexibility of everyday personal vehicles.

I rent often for business, and have made a point to rent the Edge.  Awesome vehicle, especially for long (13-16 hour) trips. Good amount of cargo space too, and exceptionally quiet. I usually cart around a couple of servers and a trade show booth. My in-laws have the Chevy equivalent (Equinox) and it is a steaming heap in comparison, very underpowered.  I have also rented Dodge's equivalent several times (whatever it is called), and it makes the Equinox look like a Bently.  The Dodge has so many rattles that I think it must be some kind of competition on the assembly line to see who can attach the most annoying piece of plastic!  Last time I was given a Dodge I returned it for a "downgrade" because it was such a POS.  I suppose Dodge fills the gap left by Pontiac though.

[RDW]

Sorry that I haven't responded sooner to some of your questions.  And, look, there are legitimate criticisms of passenger rail and not everyone may be in favor of it.  But, at least I can try to provide some info, so any discussion and opinions are based on facts.

There are a lot of things that I rely on the experts for.  Like, the run times.  The private companies who are interested have said that they can provide run times around 2:15 each way, with short stops in Sapulpa, Bristow, Stroud and Chandler.  Those intermediate stops are short, just allowing people to get on and off.  But, the intermediate stops are one of the reasons that I favor this conventional route over high speed.  Conventional service allows those who live along the route to use the train and it provides economic benefit to those cities.  High speed will zip right past them and not serve them at all.

The private carriers tell us that they can provide that service on the existing line.  After all, passenger trains were running on this line, in excess of 60 mph, until it was discontinued in the late 1960's.

There is discussion of improving the line, elevating the outside of some of the curves, straightening some other curves, that would cost somewhere around $75 million.  But, it should be phased-in.

Unfortunately, these excursion trains will not have the ability to transport bikes.  Permanent train service would.

Both OKC and Tulsa would have to improve public transit, to get people from the train station to their destination.  My hope is, if there's a demand for it and a profit to be made, the private sector will provide transportation for the "last mile"  rather than the public sector, i.e., you and I.  We also have to shift our thinking and understand that it's ok to walk a few blocks.  

Real passenger rail, from downtown to downtown, will not fit everyone's need, will not fit everyone's schedule, for every trip.  Not even I would ride it every time I need to go to OKC.  But, it's a good, safe, reliable, alternative.  

And, if a private company is willing to provide the service, with NO operational subsidy from the taxpayers, if they're willing to take the financial risk, I say go for it.

[Conan71]

And, if a private company is willing to provide the service, with NO operational subsidy from the taxpayers, if they're willing to take the financial risk, I say go for it.

That’s probably the best part of it all.

Thank you for answering so many questions.  Bummer about the bikes, but hey, it’s a pilot program.  Let them know there would be demand for people to be able to commute on two wheels at either end of the tracks if there is any way to accommodate it now or in the future.

[carltonplace]

Thank you Rick. The fact that you would jump onto our forum to explain this to us speaks volumes about your dedication.

[Red Arrow]

Rick,

Thank you for the straight info.

RA

[TheArtist]

If you all have any flyers or have something on a website I could download I would be happy to post them in my shop downtown and perhaps suggest they be a Valentines day excursion/gift. 

[davideinstein]

Both OKC and Tulsa would have to improve public transit, to get people from the train station to their destination.  My hope is, if there's a demand for it and a profit to be made, the private sector will provide transportation for the "last mile"  rather than the public sector, i.e., you and I.  We also have to shift our thinking and understand that it's ok to walk a few blocks.  

Amen.