Hey White Guys! (you know who you are...)

[Red Arrow]

Don't forget the douser.

Dowser?

[AquaMan]

Dowser?

Wasn't sure of the spelling. You have once again humiliated me in front of millions. Thanks.

[Red Arrow]

Wasn't sure of the spelling. You have once again humiliated me in front of millions. Thanks.

Didn't intend to humiliate you, just check that you intended something (that I looked up on Google) and not something else entirely.

Should I go back to a PM when I detect a spelling error?

[nathanm]

I should be wealthy beyond my fondest dreams with access to all these government goodies but yet I am not.  Something is missing and I can only consider that it is because I don't have city water at my house.

That's quite a logical leap you made there. Not to mention that nobody said that a strong and cohesive society will make each and every member fabulously wealthy relative to all other members of society. That would be impossible.

[Red Arrow]

That's quite a logical leap you made there. Not to mention that nobody said that a strong and cohesive society will make each and every member fabulously wealthy relative to all other members of society. That would be impossible.

Not fabulously wealthy relative to all other members of society.  We should all be fabulously wealthy with all these government provided goodies that we all have access to.  Just sayin', the government infrastructure is there for all of us.

[heironymouspasparagus]

You read it inversely to what I said.  

We already have well water.  I would need to change to city provided water, with way more government direct involvement, than keep the well water we already have.

Edit:
You, however, ignored my point in order to make yours.  My point is that I do have access to roads and all the things touted by the President.  I do actually have access to city water, for part of my time, at work and at friends' places and even WalMart.  I should be wealthy beyond my fondest dreams with access to all these government goodies but yet I am not.  Something is missing and I can only consider that it is because I don't have city water at my house.

No, I didn't ignore it - I expanded the scope.  The existing well had all those things happen at one time or other.  If you ever have to do a rework on it, another set of people get involved.

Broadening the scope to emphasize the point - and it is not really for you because I know you already know this - that even something as straightforward as your well involves an entire infrastructure that the "rugged individualist" cannot duplicate on his own.  It would be a reasonable thing for a well in your area to be dug by hand.  Water is close to the surface, and the soil is probably fairly easy to dig.  It would just take some time and a lot of digging.  Then we go to the infrastructure required to supply the shovel.  Or you  can make your own shovel out of a hardwood tree (oak, hickory or ash would do well), and that would probably be a satisfactory tool.  So then we have to cut the tree, and split it into the piece of wood to shape into the shovel.  Which takes us one step back to the axe, the sledge and wedges to split, and some type of carving tool (drawknife?) which require a certain infrastructure to make those tools.  Unless you have some steel around and a forge, which takes us to the hammers and anvil to work the steel... but I need some more hardwood to make charcoal for the forge.  ....it just keeps on going round and round.

What IS a reasonable expectation of all those "government goodies" is that the least among us should have at least the bare necessities of survival.

[Red Arrow]

No, I didn't ignore it - I expanded the scope.

I didn't say you ignored it.  You read in the opposite meaning of what I wrote. 

Since you either refuse to acknowledge it, are ignoring my point, or cannot detect some sarcasm, I'll spell it out for you and others.

I think most on the left are over emphasizing the role government plays in the success of anyone who does well and are intentionally downplaying any personal effort on the part of the individual.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I think most on the left are over emphasizing the role government plays in the success of anyone who does well and are intentionally downplaying any personal effort on the part of the individual.

This is a whole new discussion.... our government does a LOT of stuff that just would never even get looked at if left to the private sector.  We have basic research - unfortunately too much of it centered around military - that has given us the "seed" for so many things that benefit us today.  From agriculture to medicine/pharmaceuticals to NASA creating memory foam.  Having done just a little bit of that in the past, there is huge leverage for dollars spent.  Just the space program has spawned SOOO much that directly touches everyone on this board, as well as everyone in this state, this nation, and even most of the world.  I submit that nobody in Tulsa who works at a W-2 job can go through an entire day without being impacted in some way by the government spending on space - it touches everyone.

Same thing can be said about agriculture.  OSU is a leading ag school that spends government money and provides assistance to local (statewide) agriculture from livestock to row crops to truck farm agriculture to any topic related to animal husbandry and growing green stuff that is practiced in this state.

It is pretty much a case of "pick a topic" - and if the government is spending money on it, there is likely to be a benefit flow to the private sector.  Of course there are exceptions - we beat on a couple of them pretty hard here - no real benefit to bailing out big banks, and the subsidization of a mature industry is not a well thought out strategy (Solyndra).

In the banks case, the trillion+ could still make the case that total collapse was averted.  And Solyndra might have brought about something due to the unique (cylindrical) nature of their solar cell technology.  Could be someone else can run with it and tweak it some and have a home run.  Or not.

If the bank bailouts DID stave off collapse, then we can say that a trillion saved several trillion.  If someone takes the Solyndra ideas and runs with it, and builds a multi-billion industry out of it, then that would be a bargain.  I don't believe either case is likely to be valid, but it might work out.  Sometimes ideas and investments win.  Sometimes they lose.  (80% of new companies fail in the first couple years.)

Government spending can be and often is a great enabler.  In areas that would never even be looked at by private industry.  And I bet your company has benefited from some government research program somewhere along the line - if not directly, then indirectly by technology/methods/materials that came about due to that spending.  And you personally enjoy gyroscopic technology that came about as a direct result of military spending for war planes.  Not to mention GPS and the internet (both DARPA). 

If anyone is interested in weird things the government is spending money on, check out Darpa Dog sometime.  Uncanny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1czBcnX1Ww

Or Petman - both from Boston Dynamics.  Working with government money.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mclbVTIYG8E




 

[nathanm]

We should all be fabulously wealthy with all these government provided goodies that we all have access to.

We are all fabulously wealthy by the standards of the parts of the world that lack those things. Perhaps not compared to the cronies at the very top of their particular pyramid, but relative to most people in most countries, almost everyone has it better, largely thanks to our willingness to collectively build schools and roads and water systems and the like. Although built largely/mostly by private companies, even the phone and electrical systems were made almost completely universal thanks to government funds, which represent all of us chipping in to help each and every one of us (or as near as we can achieve, anyway) to a certain standard of living, which in turn makes us all richer.

[Red Arrow]

This is a whole new discussion....

Start a new thread?

our government does a LOT of stuff that just would never even get looked at if left to the private sector. 

The government has certainly hurried a lot of things along.  A lot of it good stuff.

[Red Arrow]

We are all fabulously wealthy by the standards of the parts of the world that lack those things. Perhaps not compared to the cronies at the very top of their particular pyramid, but relative to most people in most countries, almost everyone has it better, largely thanks to our willingness to collectively build schools and roads and water systems and the like. Although built largely/mostly by private companies, even the phone and electrical systems were made almost completely universal thanks to government funds, which represent all of us chipping in to help each and every one of us (or as near as we can achieve, anyway) to a certain standard of living, which in turn makes us all richer.

One more time: I think most on the left are over emphasizing the role government plays in the success of anyone who does well and are intentionally downplaying any personal effort on the part of the individual.

You are free to think differently.

[AquaMan]

Didn't intend to humiliate you, just check that you intended something (that I looked up on Google) and not something else entirely.

Should I go back to a PM when I detect a spelling error?

Nah. I was just laughing at myself and inviting you to join in. I should have looked it up.

[nathanm]

One more time: I think most on the left are over emphasizing the role government plays in the success of anyone who does well and are intentionally downplaying any personal effort on the part of the individual.

You are free to think differently.

There may be some folks who actively downplay the role of the individual, but they're not the people I talk to, who are too busy trying to prevent the death of the idea that government services and research help make our country what it is to bother talking down individual effort. Even when Obama said "you didn't build that," he was in the middle of a speech talking about what government does for us, not talking about what people don't do.

The Republican message, on the other hand, appears to be that government is useless at everything except defense and individual effort is the only thing that matters.

I think both are necessary in most cases. Society, through government, makes available things like roads and other infrastructure, small business loans, and programs to help keep workers available to you. You, through ingenuity and hard work, find success using those tools placed at your disposal by society as a whole.

The real irony is that most of these people who complain about being asked to think about the broader system that society has put in place to foster small business would be bankrupt today if not for government action during the financial crisis. Few businesses operate completely on a cash basis with no debt. They'd have had a lot better argument pre-2008.

[Red Arrow]

Even when Obama said "you didn't build that," he was in the middle of a speech talking about what government does for us, not talking about what people don't do.

For a man with such a fine education, he sure gets misunderstood a lot.  Either that or his supporters are trying to cover for him.

[Hoss]

For a man with such a fine education, he sure gets misunderstood a lot.  Either that or his supporters are trying to cover for him.

Kinda like Romney's supporters are covering for his being the candidate who 'likes to fire people'.

Wait..what?