Mass Shootings the last six months

[Conan71]

Don't be one of the dumb masses.

institute an "assault weapon" ban.  Great.  How are you going to ensure that every psycho who presently owns one doesn't keep it and this doesn't happen again, you simply cannot.

I don't understand why everyone is mocking the idea of armed guards in schools.  Do you people not understand why it is that these nutjobs target schools?  Because they are looking for a defenseless target-rich environment where they can inflict the most carnage with little or no fear of having someone interrupt their plan by returning fire. 

Can anyone here honestly say that had Lanza been met with gunfire within the first 20-30 seconds of his rampage that far fewer people would NOT have died?  I believe the account is he wandered around for 20 minutes before finally ending his sick life.

It sucks that it's come down to the need of armed guards in schools, but how else can you ensure student's safety?

[RecycleMichael]

He shot all the people in two and a half minutes.

[AquaMan]

Doesn't make sense Conan. Schools are at least two city blocks of buildings and grounds. Where do you place the guard to protect them all? The most defenseless would be the special needs area. But that leaves the main entrance and the mass of students unprotected. One guard cannot cover the whole area.

A complex like Union, Jenks, Washington or Edison? Forget about it. It would take over two minutes just to communicate who, what, where and when. Then the guard has to respond. With a pistol. Simpleton idea.

Then there are the parking lots, buses, and auditoriums. Simple, target rich environments even if the student body is armed.

[patric]

A complex like Union, Jenks, Washington or Edison? Forget about it. It would take over two minutes just to communicate who, what, where and when. Then the guard has to respond. With a pistol. Simpleton idea.
Then there are the parking lots, buses, and auditoriums. Simple, target rich environments even if the student body is armed.

Kendall Whittier is the only elementary school to have a security guard, so an incident at any other elementary school must wait for TPS security to come from a nearby high school.  
On the Connecticut shooter's timetable, it would all be over long before the arrival of the first TPS police car.
 
"(TPS) will team up with Tulsa police and deputies within minutes to stop a shooter and save as many lives as possible.
So, if someone comes in with a firearm and they are actively attacking people our first responsibility is to confront and eliminate the threat," Rudick said.
http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story/connecticut-shooting-students-school/LonkE43VIEqxQP5SMn5v3g.cspx

[Conan71]

Doesn't make sense Conan. Schools are at least two city blocks of buildings and grounds. Where do you place the guard to protect them all? The most defenseless would be the special needs area. But that leaves the main entrance and the mass of students unprotected. One guard cannot cover the whole area.

A complex like Union, Jenks, Washington or Edison? Forget about it. It would take over two minutes just to communicate who, what, where and when. Then the guard has to respond. With a pistol. Simpleton idea.

Then there are the parking lots, buses, and auditoriums. Simple, target rich environments even if the student body is armed.

Who is thinking simply here, AM?  What's your answer, just allow these episodes to continue un-abated?

Guard or guard(s).  You limit entrance points to buildings to one or two just like our courthouse and federal buildings, depending on the building size.  Sheesh.  I think you just like being contrarian at times.

So we ban assault rifles and law-abiding citizens turn theirs in on a buy back.  Meanwhile, sick, criminally-minded individuals continue to assault defenseless children, teachers, and administrators because we are just too stupid to post a viable deterrent in the form of well-trained security force in our schools and limit access points which are easily breached.

One last time: People like Lanza purposely avoid resistance and go for a defenseless target-rich environment to pull off their personal apocalypse.

After 9/11 we didn't ban box cutters, jet fuel, sky scrapers, or commercial aircraft.  We stepped up security at entrance points in transportation ports of entry, limited entrances, changed procedure for cockpit access on aircraft, and have armed air marshals anonymously flying on domestic and international routes.  Sure TSA is a total clusterfuck, yet we have had no domestic hijackings since 9/11/01. Why is this so difficult for people to wrap their brains around? 

FWIW, no we don't need a federal bureaucracy to establish this.  It can be done on a state or local basis and I guarantee it would save lives.  Figure out what our priorities are, cut funding from programs deemed less important than school security and fund it as a combination of state and federal funds.

This is the problem when sheeple think guns are responsible for mass killings, not humans.

[Conan71]

He shot all the people in two and a half minutes.

If he could have been stopped after 15 or 30 seconds, how many lives could have been saved which were not?

I agree with you that more weapons is not a solution to problems like this (per your FB post), but weapons in the hands of a very well trained security force stands a better chance of saving lives than hoping a gun buy-back will find every single high capacity weapon in circulation or which is in the hands of evil people.

[Hoss]

If he could have been stopped after 15 or 30 seconds, how many lives could have been saved which were not?

I agree with you that more weapons is not a solution to problems like this (per your FB post), but weapons in the hands of a very well trained security force stands a better chance of saving lives than hoping a gun buy-back will find every single high capacity weapon in circulation or which is in the hands of evil people.

Is there a reason BOTH suggestions couldn't be applied?

[patric]

Or not.



Having armed security on-site failed to prevent the deadliest mass shooting at an American high school.

In 1999, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold killed 15 people and wounded 23 more at Columbine High School. The destruction occurred despite the fact that there was an armed security officer at the school and another one nearby -- exactly what (NRA speaker) LaPierre argued on Friday was the answer to stopping "a bad guy with a gun."

Deputy Neil Gardner was a 15-year veteran of the Jefferson County, Colo., Sheriff’s Office assigned as the uniformed officer at Columbine. According to an account compiled by the police department, Gardner fired on Harris but was unsuccessful in stopping him:

    Gardner, seeing Harris working with his gun, leaned over the top of the car and fired four shots. He was 60 yards from the gunman. Harris spun hard to the right and Gardner momentarily thought he had hit him. Seconds later, Harris began shooting again at the deputy.

    After the exchange of gunfire, Harris ran back into the building. Gardner was able to get on the police radio and called for assistance from other Sheriff’s units. "Shots in the building. I need someone in the south lot with me."

The second officer was Deputy Paul Smoker, a motorcycle patrolman who was near the school writing a speeding ticket. When he heard a dispatch of a woman injured at the high school, he responded. He, too, fired at Harris but didn't stop him.

LaPierre said having armed security on the scene is necessary so someone is there to shoot back. "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun," he said. "Would you rather have your 911 call bring a good guy with a gun from a mile away -- or a minute away?"

But in chaotic situations, it's often impossible to identify the "bad guy," as Smoker said in his account of Columbine: "There was an unknown inside a school. We didn't know who the 'bad guy' was but we soon realized the sophistication of their weapons. These were big bombs. Big guns. We didn’t have a clue who 'they' were."

"That's the point," said Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) at a press conference on Friday afternoon, denouncing LaPierre's solution. "There were two armed law enforcement officers at that campus, and you see what happened. Fifteen dead ... 23 wounded."

New Jersey Chris Christie (R) also said on Friday that he doesn't believe having armed guards will make schools safer or encourage learning.

On Wednesday, violence prevention researchers and a large number of education, health and civic groups discouraged putting more guns in schools.

"Inclinations to intensify security in schools should be reconsidered," they wrote in a statement. "We cannot and should not turn our schools into fortresses. Effective prevention cannot wait until there is a gunman in a school parking lot. We need resources such as mental health supports and threat assessment teams in every school and community so that people can seek assistance when they recognize that someone is troubled and requires help."

Research also has shown that highly visible efforts to increase school safety -- such as armed guards -- make children feel less safe at school, undermining their ability to learn.

[Teatownclown]

Who is thinking simply here, AM?  What's your answer, just allow these episodes to continue un-abated?

Guard or guard(s).  You limit entrance points to buildings to one or two just like our courthouse and federal buildings, depending on the building size.  Sheesh.  I think you just like being contrarian at times.

So we ban assault rifles and law-abiding citizens turn theirs in on a buy back.  Meanwhile, sick, criminally-minded individuals continue to assault defenseless children, teachers, and administrators because we are just too stupid to post a viable deterrent in the form of well-trained security force in our schools and limit access points which are easily breached.

One last time: People like Lanza purposely avoid resistance and go for a defenseless target-rich environment to pull off their personal apocalypse.

After 9/11 we didn't ban box cutters, jet fuel, sky scrapers, or commercial aircraft.  We stepped up security at entrance points in transportation ports of entry, limited entrances, changed procedure for cockpit access on aircraft, and have armed air marshals anonymously flying on domestic and international routes.  Sure TSA is a total clusterfuck, yet we have had no domestic hijackings since 9/11/01. Why is this so difficult for people to wrap their brains around?  

FWIW, no we don't need a federal bureaucracy to establish this.  It can be done on a state or local basis and I guarantee it would save lives.  Figure out what our priorities are, cut funding from programs deemed less important than school security and fund it as a combination of state and federal funds.

This is the problem when sheeple think guns are responsible for mass killings, not humans.

Taxing the ammo would raise $5 Billion....

Here's a gift ... Merry Christmas!

"I have a buddy who is a mechanic and a gun nut. The other night I went into his garage and took all of his wrenches. The next day I took my car in and asked if he could take a look at it. He told me he couldn't really do anything because someone took all his wrenches. I said that's ridiculous, wrenches don't fix cars; people do." ~ From Praggie, Charles Michael.

[Red Arrow]

"I have a buddy who is a mechanic and a gun nut. The other night I went into his garage and took all of his wrenches. The next day I took my car in and asked if he could take a look at it. He told me he couldn't really do anything because someone took all his wrenches. I said that's ridiculous, wrenches don't fix cars; people do." ~ From Praggie, Charles Michael.

That guy bought the wrong brand of wrenches.   

[Teatownclown]

That guy bought the wrong brand of wrenches.  

Yes. He should have bought the one's with the explosive discharge that ignite by remote.

[AquaMan]

Who is thinking simply here, AM?  What's your answer, just allow these episodes to continue un-abated?

Guard or guard(s).  You limit entrance points to buildings to one or two just like our courthouse and federal buildings, depending on the building size.  Sheesh.  I think you just like being contrarian at times.

So we ban assault rifles and law-abiding citizens turn theirs in on a buy back.  Meanwhile, sick, criminally-minded individuals continue to assault defenseless children, teachers, and administrators because we are just too stupid to post a viable deterrent in the form of well-trained security force in our schools and limit access points which are easily breached.

One last time: People like Lanza purposely avoid resistance and go for a defenseless target-rich environment to pull off their personal apocalypse.

After 9/11 we didn't ban box cutters, jet fuel, sky scrapers, or commercial aircraft.  We stepped up security at entrance points in transportation ports of entry, limited entrances, changed procedure for cockpit access on aircraft, and have armed air marshals anonymously flying on domestic and international routes.  Sure TSA is a total clusterfuck, yet we have had no domestic hijackings since 9/11/01. Why is this so difficult for people to wrap their brains around? 

FWIW, no we don't need a federal bureaucracy to establish this.  It can be done on a state or local basis and I guarantee it would save lives.  Figure out what our priorities are, cut funding from programs deemed less important than school security and fund it as a combination of state and federal funds.

This is the problem when sheeple think guns are responsible for mass killings, not humans.

I'm not required to provide the inspired solution to our crazy assed violent society and its love affair with weapons that spray bullets like a sprinkler on a garden hose just because I think the offered solution is full of weakness.

I'm simply pointing out that one well trained guard, with a pistol, located on one of a limited number of access points to a multi-building, multi-acreage school site....is not a logical solution. Remember, this guy shot out a window, not an approved access point. I say this from experience. I visit grade schools, middle schools and high schools every day transporting children to them. I converse with the teachers, the principals, the security guards and the parents. What is proposed is folly. Just put a target on the security guards back and buy insurance for his widow.

I alluded to this before but I'll spell it out. The location is not the key. The un-armed targets are not the key. It is the assemblage of humans in situations where weapons used against them are most effective. Movie theaters, college campuses, restaurants, festivals etc. The movie theater was likely populated by concealed carry enthusiasts carrying at best a single clip. I know a restaurant attacked in Texas was populated with gun toting patrons. It doesn't much matter. A mentally deranged person doesn't really care. He intends to die in the process.

When you have limited the battle to guns, the guy with the biggest, meanest, fastest firing gun probably has the advantage. Take the guns out of the battle and it becomes knives, spears, hammers, baseball bats, explosives or poisons. The former limits damage, the latter enhances it. Thats why we monitor their sale. We wouldn't for a moment consider letting our populace have access to Sarin or biological toxins. But Bushmasters are okay?

[Teatownclown]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDN-llJRSjw[/youtube]

Lawrence O'Donnell may be the best journalist today.

[AquaMan]

Very powerful. Skip the NRA speech, watch this instead.

[heironymouspasparagus]

If I carried a gun when I was mugged in Chicago, I woulda been shot with it... if I would have been there when thieves (probably a couple of kids) broke into my house in Owen Park, would I really have needed to pull out a semi-automatic weapon?  Oh wait, if the NRA had its way, I would.

Only if you felt the need or were inclined to defend yourself.  If you feel like just letting it happen to you, that too, is your choice and you are always free to make that choice.  Seems like that is just about as stupid as all you other arguments advancing gun control, but hey, that's what the country has come to expect from the Brady Organization.  Illiterate, illogical tripe, with actually so little basis in fact as to be worse than worthless.  But hey, that again, is yet ANOTHER one of those pesky 'inalienable' rights ensconced in the US Constitution...1st Amendment...you remember that one, don't you?  The one just immediately before the one you want to abrogate so badly.

So, let's review - YOU want your rights to embrace and enjoy to the fullest, and yet, at the same time want to impose an arbitrary "will" to eliminate the exercise of mine.  Ok.
You really wanna go there, huh??  Ok...let's go.


So, here we are experiencing an amazing effort, driven by the well known and documented LWRE doctrine of ridding the country of a Right found by the founders to be important enough to actually enumerate in the US Constitution...that effort driven by some inane, misguided nonsense that somehow equates taking the rights away from millions of law abiding citizens with safety for children.  And the false premise that somehow removing a magazine from circulation will make everything all better.  Where is your baseball bat umbrage??  (As debunked by actual FBI statistics, if one were intellectually honest enough to study and understand...)

AT THE SAME TIME, most of those same misguided are also rabidly frothing at the mouth to enable a 'right' that has no text, nor reference, nor standing in history or law for almost 200 years after the founding.  The ongoing massacre and slaughter of over 1 million children per year, one kid at a time, by their mothers, and the performance of that killing, hundreds if not thousands of times per year, by the doctors enlisted to be complicit in that massacre of abortions.


And the perspective is somehow focused on the millions of people who use firearms to successfully defend themselves every year - the vast majority without ever having to fire a shot.  And the tens of millions of law abiding gun owners who enjoy shooting every year.  Yeah, it's ALL about perspective and how badly warped it has become by both extremist, lunatic fringes in this country.  The AR with the 30 round magazine is not the problem.