Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75

[Conan71]

Bales Park is actually used by people in the local community, though I don't know how many. It will be interesting to see the reaction. I think the article was likely a trial balloon.

The trafffic issue with 61st and Hwy 75 won't be made easier. The 61st and Union intersection is ready - it is massively overbuilt for the current traffic load, but the highway interchange would work about as well as the interchange at 81st and Hwy 75, meaning not at all. At least the 81st Street interchange has lights. the 61st Street interchange only has stop signs. Traffic trying to exit 75 northbound onto 81st Street to go to Tulsa Hills or Gander Mountain is backing up onto the highway itself. 

Issues you cited are accurate, plus:

Moving it closer to the residential areas won't play well with residents.  51st & Union as well as the bridge over I-44 is grossly inadequate to handle cut-around traffic.

Here's another issue: If you were developing a "premium" outlet mall concept, how easy would it be to sell your retailers on the idea of their store being 1/8 of a mile or so from Section 8 housing?  I can't imagine Simon will take this serious.

The McGeeHee Trust owned site on the SW corner of 61st & HWY75 is now "officially" on the market, as is their 25 or 26 acre parcel on the SE corner of said intersection.  Less traffic issues there and you might be able to have a frontage/access road direct to the site.  BUT- you still have the Westside Owners Residents Tennants Homeowners to reckon with.

People following this are curious why Clay Bird seems to favor Simon over Horizon.  What happens if the city ends up with two developments with attendant TIF districts and one fails?

[cynical]

Given that the proposed Horizon location is out there in the Hispanic section of town that doesn't vote for the likes of Dewey Bartlett, Clay Bird would be as receptive as the mayor would be, which is not very. At least it's in the city limits unlike the proposed Cherokee project.

One perceived advantage of the west side location is that there aren't that many voters out there. Too much undeveloped property to be much of a NIMBY concern. You have to have a back yard to protect.

I had also wondered about the apartments. Those and the rental housing across Union as well don't exactly exude "premium."

The comparison with Inhofe's land swap was amusing. Inhofe did his after the voters turned down his low-water dam proposal. There appears to be another discussion going on that issue, almost as if 30 years just vanished. The voters didn't exactly reward him for his initiative. I still remember him saying he was happy to return to the private sector where he could make money. That was before the demise of the family insurance business and his lawsuit against his brother and his subsequent return to the public teat.

And what a rousing success that dam has been. Did they say the dam would have a 30 year life span at the time?

Issues you cited are accurate, plus:

Moving it closer to the residential areas won't play well with residents.  51st & Union as well as the bridge over I-44 is grossly inadequate to handle cut-around traffic.

Here's another issue: If you were developing a "premium" outlet mall concept, how easy would it be to sell your retailers on the idea of their store being 1/8 of a mile or so from Section 8 housing?  I can't imagine Simon will take this serious.

The McGeeHee Trust owned site on the SW corner of 61st & HWY75 is now "officially" on the market, as is their 25 or 26 acre parcel on the SE corner of said intersection.  Less traffic issues there and you might be able to have a frontage/access road direct to the site.  BUT- you still have the Westside Owners Residents Tennants Homeowners to reckon with.

People following this are curious why Clay Bird seems to favor Simon over Horizon.  What happens if the city ends up with two developments with attendant TIF districts and one fails?

[heironymouspasparagus]

The comparison with Inhofe's land swap was amusing. Inhofe did his after the voters turned down his low-water dam proposal. There appears to be another discussion going on that issue, almost as if 30 years just vanished. The voters didn't exactly reward him for his initiative. I still remember him saying he was happy to return to the private sector where he could make money. That was before the demise of the family insurance business and his lawsuit against his brother and his subsequent return to the public teat.

And what a rousing success that dam has been. Did they say the dam would have a 30 year life span at the time?

At the time, is was nicknamed the "Jim Inhofe Memorial Sewage Lagoon".  Due to obvious issues with raw sewage being occasionally spewed by Sand Springs antiquated treatment plant of the day and raw sewage continuously being spewed by the namesake - continuing to this day!!

[dbacksfan 2.0]

I have to say that I have been following this thread as well as others and have commented on many, and have lost my cool as well, but I still have a connection to Tulsa as I was born in the Pink Palace and saw so much from being on Mr. Zing and Tuffy in 1968 to when I moved away in 1998.

I think outlet malls can be a good thing, but the original proposed location is not one I would want. Turkey Mountain has been a wilderness park for as long as I can remember and that goes back to when it was on fire in the late 70's long before it became what it is now. The land swap for the park on the west side of HWY 75 still doesn't seem like a good location either, it just seems like a bad idea. I don't know about the area out towards Catoosa and the casino and the development that has grown out there. That may work, I just don't see it.

I went to the Tanger Outlet in Stroud once in 1992 and then it wasn't what I expected, as I don't think it was what others expected. I think the biggest problem was the fact that it was too far from the target markets and it never drew the highway travelers. I went to find something at the Anne Klein store but the 100 mile round trip made it not worth it.

Maybe if they built similar malls near the Bristow exit on the Turner/Rte 66 and near the old rest stop near Claremore along the Will Rogers/66 route. That could serve both sides of town without being a drive for next to nothing.

[PonderInc]

For folks who are interested in this topic, I would suggest googling "Simon Property Group" and "tax abatement."  These guys are experts (as are most national retailers) for gaming the system and getting out of paying local taxes.  It's sad that municipalities slobber all over themselves competing to give away taxpayer dollars to attract businesses that pay minimum wage, employ part time workers, and exempt store managers from overtime pay.  Then, in 10 years, when the tifs expire and their malls are not generating the promised sales tax dollars, they will fight to get their property taxes reduced.  They save millions. Meanwhile, we continue to pay for infrastructure required to "support" their malls, etc.

If you want to build a mall, go for it.  Just don't ask for any special treatment.  No need for us to help do your dirty work.

[sgrizzle]

While Conan and my opinions generally don't jive on this subject, I do have to agree that I don't see a quality of life improvement for the surrounding areas. This is about increasing sales tax dollars in the Tulsa city limits. Rarely do any major retail centers improve anything for the neighbors except decrease loneliness.

Well, strike those city sales tax dollars. Mall jumped to Jenks.

http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/9/b2/9b2d5c43-fa5a-57e6-aec9-94d3b8c50432/555d58f8e04de.pdf.pdf

[patric]

Well, strike those city sales tax dollars. Mall jumped to Jenks.

http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/9/b2/9b2d5c43-fa5a-57e6-aec9-94d3b8c50432/555d58f8e04de.pdf.pdf

The land is already under contract for Simon Property group, according to a statement from the city of Jenks.
Dunkerley said the site is already part of a tax increment finance district, and Jenks residents in 2013 passed a road funding package that included streets in that area.
The roads will be constructed in conjunction with the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority and will be ready by the mall's planned opening in 2017.
Jenks City Manager Mike Tinker said in a statement released by the city Monday night that "this shows investment drives opportunity. ... The foresight to invest and plan means it was just a matter of time until a project would materialize the size and scope of the Simon Premium Outlets."

So the whole Turkey Mountain show was a ruse?

[Conan71]

So the whole Turkey Mountain show was a ruse?

Jury is still out on that.  The outlet mall business is a lot of bait and switch.  I think Simon successfully may have taken Tulsa's eye off the ball long enough until they could find a suitable site in a friendly suburb with access that meets the need to be in proximity of a major interstate or a spur of one.

Meanwhile, the ED office has so far failed in properly shepherding the project announced almost a year before Simon's intentions on Turkey Mountain were accidentally leaked last August. 

Tulsa is better off with this not happening.  Serious economic analysis of the Turkey Mountain site, or anywhere on the 61st & 75 intersection is embarrassing. It's not sustainable economically, but that's a discussion for another thread.

[LandArchPoke]

So the city wants us to pay $100+ million in sales tax over the next 15 years just so when someone comes to the outlet mall in Jenks they can park next to "WATER IN THE RIVER!"

I will say the site is much better than Turkey Mountain - it's flat and infrastructure is already set to be paid for. It's in an affluent area as well.

I think Simon is still cheating the City of Jenks by not making more of this development. No river interaction what so ever. There is a higher and better use for this site and this is not it. I will take it here over Turkey Mountain.

I will be voting NO on any river tax now for sure once I've seen this development plan. This was the largest tract with high potential for mixed-use development that would have immediately benefitted from a new damn. Unless the Jenks damn is taken off, I can't support this.

[Weatherdemon]

So the city wants us to pay $100+ million in sales tax over the next 15 years just so when someone comes to the outlet mall in Jenks they can park next to "WATER IN THE RIVER!"

I will say the site is much better than Turkey Mountain - it's flat and infrastructure is already set to be paid for. It's in an affluent area as well.

I think Simon is still cheating the City of Jenks by not making more of this development. No river interaction what so ever. There is a higher and better use for this site and this is not it. I will take it here over Turkey Mountain.

I will be voting NO on any river tax now for sure once I've seen this development plan. This was the largest tract with high potential for mixed-use development that would have immediately benefitted from a new damn. Unless the Jenks damn is taken off, I can't support this.

I had always thought this would've been a great place for an amusement/water park.

[sgrizzle]

So the city wants us to pay $100+ million in sales tax over the next 15 years just so when someone comes to the outlet mall in Jenks they can park next to "WATER IN THE RIVER!"

I will say the site is much better than Turkey Mountain - it's flat and infrastructure is already set to be paid for. It's in an affluent area as well.

I think Simon is still cheating the City of Jenks by not making more of this development. No river interaction what so ever. There is a higher and better use for this site and this is not it. I will take it here over Turkey Mountain.

I will be voting NO on any river tax now for sure once I've seen this development plan. This was the largest tract with high potential for mixed-use development that would have immediately benefitted from a new damn. Unless the Jenks damn is taken off, I can't support this.

I don't think this thing comes within 200 yards of the river. Is it bad that my house isn't more river facing, because I too am not adjacent to the river.

[sgrizzle]

Jury is still out on that.  The outlet mall business is a lot of bait and switch.  I think Simon successfully may have taken Tulsa's eye off the ball long enough until they could find a suitable site in a friendly suburb with access that meets the need to be in proximity of a major interstate or a spur of one.

I bet the TUWC really worked for Simon this whole time. They wanted Jenks to work harder so they made it looked like they were going in Tulsa and then paid TUWC to "scare them off" once the Jenks deal got better.

[Gaspar]

Jury is still out on that.  The outlet mall business is a lot of bait and switch.  I think Simon successfully may have taken Tulsa's eye off the ball long enough until they could find a suitable site in a friendly suburb with access that meets the need to be in proximity of a major interstate or a spur of one.

Meanwhile, the ED office has so far failed in properly shepherding the project announced almost a year before Simon's intentions on Turkey Mountain were accidentally leaked last August. 

Tulsa is better off with this not happening.  Serious economic analysis of the Turkey Mountain site, or anywhere on the 61st & 75 intersection is embarrassing. It's not sustainable economically, but that's a discussion for another thread.

You do understand that this was never going to be at Turkey Mountain, right?  

[Gaspar]

I bet the TUWC really worked for Simon this whole time. They wanted Jenks to work harder so they made it looked like they were going in Tulsa and then paid TUWC to "scare them off" once the Jenks deal got better.

This is an old tactic.  Simon is the master. Soon a local politician will emerge and take credit for brokering the change. The project will now be fast-tracked.

I've said it before.  The 'River District' was never a real project. 

[PonderInc]

Tulsa dodged a bullet and Jenks stepped in front of it. Have fun with those tax dollars - they will never pay for the infrastructure investment you're making. Bummer only 25% of that development is productive land. That's what happens when you spend all your money building roads and parking lots and 4x more water/sewer/utilities because of that sprawling style. Enjoy those part-time minimum wage jobs, too! Go Jenks!