Is The Occupy Wall Street Movement an Answer to The Tea Party Movement?

[Gaspar]

Will wonders never cease.  I agree with pretty much all of that.

We may come at things from different directions, but occasionally we arrive at the same results.

[Gaspar]

I understand our government was based on democracy.

No.  No it wasn't. It was based on liberty.  Democracy is tyranny of the majority.  It was exactly what the founders feared and why they created a body of laws to prevent it.  Democracy has no value for rights or laws, only passion.  Democracy says it is justified to take from one person because he is outnumbered. As Lenin himself said "Democracy is indispensable to Socialism."

We are a representative republic bound by a constitution.  Our voting process is Democratic in nature, but our system of governance is not a Democracy.

Democracy=Rule by majority.
Republic=Rule by law.

 

[nathanm]

That's an extreme oversimplification.

[patric]

That's an extreme oversimplification.

...Especially when you consider that "spreading democracy" has been the stated purpose for our foreign policy...

Democracy: If You Want to Free Your Country, First Liberate Its Land
So you want to spread democracy. By now, it's pretty obvious that this is easier said than done. George W. Bush's stirring rhetoric about freedom has suggested a too-simple path: just rid the country of its tyrant and the people will be free. Bush often asserts that people in every country and culture yearn for democracy and are capable of it. To argue otherwise represents cultural condescension. It's not that President Bush is wrong at the abstract level—if Nazi Germany and fascist Japan could become democratic, it can happen most anywhere—but the argument holds at such an elevated plane that it becomes meaningless when applied on the ground. Consider, for example, Haiti, where the United States has attempted to foster democracy on and off for almost a century—with almost no success.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2008/09/19/how-not-to-save-the-world.html

[Teatownclown]

IT'S JERRY FALLWELL'S FAULT!

How the Ghost of Jerry Falwell Conquered the Republican Party

http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/101296/falwell-gop-winters

BUT PERHAPS THE MOST profound impact Falwell had on the modern GOP was that he promoted the language and the logic of orthodoxy in conservative politics. In doing so, he paved the way for the emergence of a Republican Party that is incapable of compromise, in which moderate Republicans are seen as betrayers—a party that nominates Christine O’Donnell over Mike Castle, and is in the midst of a primary campaign that has focused less on experience or electability than on adherence to the Tea Party creed.

This was a key area where Reagan and Falwell differed—and where today’s GOP is really more in line with the preacher than with the ex-president. Reagan was a tolerant, pragmatic man. There is plenty of circumstantial evidence suggesting as much: the fact that he got his start in Hollywood, that he opposed a 1978 California ballot initiative which would have barred homosexuals from teaching in public schools, that he was divorced, and that he was, according to his biographer, Lou Cannon, “not the sort of person who bothers about what people do in their own bedrooms.”

The upshot here is not simply that Reagan was a lot less interested in social conservatism than today’s typical Republican. It was that, with the exception of some of his rhetoric about the Soviet Union, he tended to eschew the harsh Manichaeism, the rigid obsession with orthodoxy in all political matters, that now defines the Republican Party. Orthodoxy, by contrast, was the signature of Falwell’s style. And irony, tolerance, and pragmatism were never his strong suits. They did not sit well with the earnestness and literalism of fundamentalist Christianity. “In the intellectual battle of the present day there can be no ‘peace without victory’; one side or the other must win,” J. Gresham Machen, a professor of New Testament at Princeton Theological Seminary and one of the founding lights of fundamentalism, wrote in 1923. Falwell’s folksy sermons transferred this absolutism about church doctrine to the political realm. “We are developing a socialistic state in these United States as surely as I am standing here right now,” Falwell preached in one sermon. “Our give-away programs, our welfarism at home and abroad, is developing a breed of bums and derelicts who wouldn’t work in a pie shop eating the holes out of donuts.”

It was this cast of mind, the sense that political and religious facts were as obvious as his “standing here right now,” that was arguably Falwell’s principal contribution to the shaping of the modern GOP. Yes, Falwell made abortion a key issue; he liked to say that you could no longer run for the Republican nomination to be dog catcher without articulating your position on abortion. But the arrival of an orthodox temperament to Republican politics was not only about abortion or about social issues. It soon extended to everything.

[guido911]

IT'S JERRY FALLWELL'S FAULT!

Makes about as much sense as this power doosh being the @ss's problem.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hPR5jnjtLo[/youtube]

[Gaspar]

Good news for this spring's Occupy Season Premier.

Due to problems with defication choices, rape, drug abuse, and murder, several union groups have stepped up to provide guidance and training to the Occupy youth.  Please seek out your local Occupy office to sign up for classes.  Most are free and will cover topics ranging from how to draw attention whiteout exposing yourself, to proper handling of human waste, to drawing a foul from law enforcement.

The following groups will be participating in these higher-education objectives: Jobs With Justice, United Auto Workers,National Peoples Action, National Domestic Workers Alliance, MoveOn.org, New Organizing Institute, Movement Strategy Center, The Other 98%, Service Employees International Union, AFL-CIO, Rebuild the Dream, Color of Change, UNITE-HERE, Greenpeace, Institute for Policy Studies, PICO National Network, New Bottom Line, Veterans of the Mississippi Civil Rights Movement, SNCC Legacy Project, United Steel Workers, Working Families Party, Communications Workers of America, United States Student Association, Rainforest Action Network, American Federation of Teachers, Leadership Center for the Common Good, UNITY, National Guestworker Alliance, 350.org, The Ruckus Society, Citizen Engagement Lab, smartMeme Strategy & Training Project, Right to the City Alliance, Pushback Network, Alliance of Californians for Community Empowerment, Progressive Democrats of America, Change to Win, Grassroots Global Justice Alliance, Campaign for America's Future, Public Campaign Action Fund, Fuse Washington, Missourians Organizing for Reform and Empowerment, Citizen Action of New York, Engage, United Electrical Workers Union, National Day Laborers Organizing Network, Alliance for a Just Society, The Partnership for Working Families, United Students Against Sweatshops, Presente.org, Get Equal, American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees, Iowa Citizens for Community Improvement, Corporate Accountability International, American Federation of Government Employees, Training for Change, People Organized for Westside Renewal (POWER), Student Labor Action Project, Colorado Progressive Coalition, Green for All, DC Jobs with Justice, Midwest Academy, The Coffee Party, International Forum on Globalization, UFCW International Union, Sunflower Community Action, Illinois People's Action, Lakeview Action Coalition, Progressive Leadership Alliance of Nevada, International Brotherhood of the Teamsters, Resource Generation, Highlander Research and Education Center, TakeAction Minnesota, Energy Action Coalition.

Moveon.org is also supplying a resource for you to contact these groups and sign up: http://civic.moveon.org/event/events/index.html?action_id=268&id=&search_distance=30&search_zip=22209&submit=Search

[Red Arrow]

Good news for this spring's Occupy Season Premier.

Due to problems with defication choices, rape, drug abuse, and murder, several union groups have stepped up to provide guidance and training to the Occupy youth.  Please seek out your local Occupy office to sign up for classes.  Most are free and will cover topics ranging from how to draw attention whiteout exposing yourself, to proper handling of human waste, to drawing a foul from law enforcement.

It's about time they got some training from the Pros. They need to learn to do damage to the opposition, not their own group.  Their amateur attempts at protesting were embarrassing.

[Gaspar]

It's about time they got some training from the Pros. They need to learn to do damage to the opposition, not their own group.  Their amateur attempts at protesting were embarrassing.

I agree.  I think if they had some organization, or even a faint unified idea of why they are there, they would be more effective.  Unfortunately, I think this new push for structure will have two unintended consequences for them.  First, it will turn off a significant number of them who are just interested in the party atmosphere.  Second, it will further fracture the groups into a multitude of sub-groups each claiming the movement and disclaiming the legitimacy of others.

We have already seen this to some extent with Marxist groups fracturing from anarchist groups yet still carrying the banner of Occupy.  We actually have a great example of that here in Tulsa with two distinct Occupy groups vying for legitimacy and recognition.

I think we're in for a fabulous season premiere offering multiple plot lines and lots of twists and turns.

[TulsaRufnex]

Blah blah blah from the arrogant Wall Street dooshbags and their apologists.... a demonstration of social darwinism at its finest...  

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGfUn7EZ69w[/youtube]

[Hoss]

I agree.  I think if they had some organization, or even a faint unified idea of why they are there, they would be more effective.  Unfortunately, I think this new push for structure will have two unintended consequences for them.  First, it will turn off a significant number of them who are just interested in the party atmosphere.  Second, it will further fracture the groups into a multitude of sub-groups each claiming the movement and disclaiming the legitimacy of others.

We have already seen this to some extent with Marxist groups fracturing from anarchist groups yet still carrying the banner of Occupy.  We actually have a great example of that here in Tulsa with two distinct Occupy groups vying for legitimacy and recognition.

I think we're in for a fabulous season premiere offering multiple plot lines and lots of twists and turns.

I think the Republican Primary season featuring all the sniping and infighting makes for better plots.

[DolfanBob]

Ahhh. The thread that just wont go away.
Quick question. What do you think the average wage earner is making in this group of people ?
I see White, Black, Asians, Old, Young, Men, Women etc. etc.
Do you think any of them make six figures and above ?

Of course not. If you make six figures. You have no need to be out there protesting with them. Mortgage payments are made. Gas tank is full, Children are in College, Retirement is all planned and vacations come once maybe twice a year. Full health care plans are payed for and life is good in that half milllion dollar home in a good not great economy of Tulsa, Oklahoma.

I have no problem with top wage earners who educated themselves and planned for their future or even had help from their parents to help get where they are. But I do have a problem with people that are out of touch with some of the reasonable arguments these people are making about a Govenment that is scewed in a direction of over taxing everything but air.

No one man is going to be able to get this Country back to where we all feel that we are living comfortable. But if you feel the last four years have been the best ever then by all means vote for current status quo.
I look at these videos and I see check to check workers and plenty of people who look like they are out of work and hurting. It truly reminds me of 1939 Germany. You suffer long enough, you break down and will follow just about any reasonable voice or idea that comes along.

[Gaspar]

Ahhh. The thread that just wont go away.
Quick question. What do you think the average wage earner is making in this group of people ?
I see White, Black, Asians, Old, Young, Men, Women etc. etc.
Do you think any of them make six figures and above ?

Of course not. If you make six figures. You have no need to be out there protesting with them. Mortgage payments are made. Gas tank is full, Children are in College, Retirement is all planned and vacations come once maybe twice a year. Full health care plans are payed for and life is good in that half milllion dollar home in a good not great economy of Tulsa, Oklahoma.

I have no problem with top wage earners who educated themselves and planned for their future or even had help from their parents to help get where they are. But I do have a problem with people that are out of touch with some of the reasonable arguments these people are making about a Govenment that is scewed in a direction of over taxing everything but air.

No one man is going to be able to get this Country back to where we all feel that we are living comfortable. But if you feel the last four years have been the best ever then by all means vote for current status quo.
I look at these videos and I see check to check workers and plenty of people who look like they are out of work and hurting. It truly reminds me of 1939 Germany. You suffer long enough, you break down and will follow just about any reasonable voice or idea that comes along.

+10
Best post of this whole thread.

[Hoss]

Ahhh. The thread that just wont go away.
Quick question. What do you think the average wage earner is making in this group of people ?
I see White, Black, Asians, Old, Young, Men, Women etc. etc.
Do you think any of them make six figures and above ?

Of course not. If you make six figures. You have no need to be out there protesting with them. Mortgage payments are made. Gas tank is full, Children are in College, Retirement is all planned and vacations come once maybe twice a year. Full health care plans are payed for and life is good in that half milllion dollar home in a good not great economy of Tulsa, Oklahoma.

I have no problem with top wage earners who educated themselves and planned for their future or even had help from their parents to help get where they are. But I do have a problem with people that are out of touch with some of the reasonable arguments these people are making about a Govenment that is scewed in a direction of over taxing everything but air.

No one man is going to be able to get this Country back to where we all feel that we are living comfortable. But if you feel the last four years have been the best ever then by all means vote for current status quo.
I look at these videos and I see check to check workers and plenty of people who look like they are out of work and hurting. It truly reminds me of 1939 Germany. You suffer long enough, you break down and will follow just about any reasonable voice or idea that comes along.

So do you think cutting taxes will solve the $15 trillion plus deficit?  That's what the guys other than the 'status quo' seem to think.  How did that work out from 2004-2008?

I'm going to borrow a term used by Gweed on here.  At some point, people have to get some 'skin in the game'.

[nathanm]

Of course not. If you make six figures. You have no need to be out there protesting with them. Mortgage payments are made. Gas tank is full, Children are in College, Retirement is all planned and vacations come once maybe twice a year. Full health care plans are payed for and life is good in that half milllion dollar home in a good not great economy of Tulsa, Oklahoma.

I don't think there's any law in this country that makes it illegal to be a class traitor.