Is The Occupy Wall Street Movement an Answer to The Tea Party Movement?

[Red Arrow]

We've been over this.  "Disrupting commerce" is not a crime in any lawbook.  "Larceny" or "destruction of private property" or "vandalism" is.  Even then, "larceny" and "destruction of private property"  and "vandalism" do not nearly rise to the level of, say, fertilizer truck bombs or, God forbid, jetliners-as-missiles.  They don't even rise to the level of "suicide bomb vest" or "sniper rifle from a hilltop." 

Though I have to say, I'm not surprised that in your personal ethical universe "disrupting commerce" is a terrorist act.  That's as clear an indication as any of how completely you've been dissolved into the idea that business is the totality of our public life.  I'm glad to say that that remains as radical a reworking of our civic moral code as Communism or Socialism ever was.   

Just curious, how would you feel about a group that decided to disrupt the hotel/motel businesses?  I'm talking about preventing customers from entering your place of business, not just protesting with signs etc.

[DolfanBob]

Just curious, how would you feel about a group that decided to disrupt the hotel/motel businesses?  I'm talking about preventing customers from entering your place of business, not just protesting with signs etc.

Like a Union picket line ?

[we vs us]

This is going to get nasty today.  Keep an eye on it.  http://www.portlandoccupier.org/2011/12/12/liveblog-d12/

I disagree, because it can and has been successfully argued that any person who blocks or disrupts legal commerce is engaging in criminal activity by denying the primary rights of others as guaranteed in the US constitution.  It is the same criminal classification applied to such activities as computer hacking to disrupt commerce on a website or network.  

Please cite, because as far as I know "hacking" is always the underlying crime, which is: larceny, or identity theft, or sex crimes, or fraud, etc.  

[Gaspar]

Like a Union picket line ?

Legally they cannot block egress from private property, nor can they block the passage of vehicles.

[Townsend]

Legally they cannot block egress from private property, nor can they block the passage of vehicles.

They never do.  People just keep trying the wrong entrance.

[Gaspar]

Please cite, because as far as I know "hacking" is always the underlying crime, which is: larceny, or identity theft, or sex crimes, or fraud, etc.  

Sure, the federal crime just covers any interruption of interstate or foreign commerce as part of the act.  The states have their own layer of law.

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 47 > § 1030

Section 6
(6) knowingly and with intent to defraud traffics (as defined in section 1029) in any password or similar information through which a computer may be accessed without authorization, if—
(A) such trafficking affects interstate or foreign commerce; or
(B) such computer is used by or for the Government of the United States.

The Oklahoma law §21-1951. is far more general.  Basically, if you are unauthorized to access and do so, you are committing a crime.  Your purpose dictates the level of the crime.  If your purpose is to disrupt commerce, it is a felony.

A. It shall be unlawful to:
  
   1. Willfully, and without authorization, gain or attempt to gain
   access to and damage, modify, alter, delete, destroy, copy, make use
   of, disclose or take possession of a computer, computer system,
   computer network or any other property.
  
   2. Use a computer, computer system, computer network or any other
   property as hereinbefore defined for the purpose of devising or
   executing a scheme or artifice with the intent to defraud, deceive,
   extort or for the purpose of controlling or obtaining money, property,
   services or other thing of value by means of a false or fraudulent
   pretense or representation.
  
   3. Willfully exceed the limits of authorization and damage, modify,
   alter, destroy, copy, delete, disclose or take possession of a
   computer, computer system, computer network or any other property. 4.
   Willfully and without authorization, gain or attempt to gain access to
   a computer, computer system, computer network or any other property.
  
   5. Willfully and without authorization use or cause to be used
   computer services.
  
   6. Willfully and without authorization disrupt or cause the disruption
   of computer services or deny or cause the denial of access or other
   computer services to an authorized user of a computer, computer system
   or computer network.
  
   7. Willfully and without authorization provide or assist in providing
   a means of accessing a computer, computer system or computer network
   in violation of this section.
  
   B. Any person convicted of violating paragraph 1, 2, 3, 6 or 7 of
   subsection A of this section shall be guilty of a felony.
http://oklegal.onenet.net/oklegal-cgi/get_statute?99/Title.21/21-1953.html

[we vs us]

Just curious, how would you feel about a group that decided to disrupt the hotel/motel businesses?  I'm talking about preventing customers from entering your place of business, not just protesting with signs etc.

If they physically prevent people from entering my place of business, then they are probably trespassing -- at least -- and I reserve the right to call the police.  If they are on public sidewalks there's only so much I can do.  If they have a permit, there's only so much I can do.  If the protesters have negotiated with police for a daylong shutdown (if I'm a port, say) there's only so much I can do.  

I'm not arguing about what's happening at the port, btw.  There're scads and scads of policies, procedures and case law regarding how protests should and should not be handled, and what protesters can and cannot do.  The OWS people will by and large stay within that framework and when they don't you can be assured that the cops on-scene won't hesitate to move in.  It's happened at every Occupy confrontation so far and I guarantee it will happen again.  

[Red Arrow]

If they physically prevent people from entering my place of business, then they are probably trespassing -- at least -- and I reserve the right to call the police.  

It shouldn't be too difficult to prevent access to a place of business while remaining on public property.  It might take a lot of people though. Do you have a Helipad on the roof of your hotel?  It would be difficult to prevent access to a Helipad.

[Gaspar]

If they physically prevent people from entering my place of business, then they are probably trespassing -- at least -- and I reserve the right to call the police.  If they are on public sidewalks there's only so much I can do.  If they have a permit, there's only so much I can do.  If the protesters have negotiated with police for a daylong shutdown (if I'm a port, say) there's only so much I can do.  

I'm not arguing about what's happening at the port, btw.  There're scads and scads of policies, procedures and case law regarding how protests should and should not be handled, and what protesters can and cannot do.  The OWS people will by and large stay within that framework and when they don't you can be assured that the cops on-scene won't hesitate to move in.  It's happened at every Occupy confrontation so far and I guarantee it will happen again.  

They are blocking the roads into the port, turning trucks around.  The police are allowing this to happen.  This is awesome!  If Tea Partiers had done this they would be taken out with Predator drones!

[Gaspar]

Oakland shutdown. Vancouver shut down. Portland shut down. Longview shut down. LA/LB partially shut. San Diego has started systematically arresting them.

I keep seeing signs that say De-colonize North America, so I had to look that one up and it's part of another "Policy" for the OWS General Assembly out of Seattle against the oppressive forces of racism and capitalism.

AFFIRMATION of Decolonization of Seattle with Northwest Indigenous Peoples

WHEREAS, those participating in “Decolonize/Occupy Seattle” acknowledge that the United States of America is a colonial country, and that we are invaders and squatters upon stolen indigenous land that has already been occupied for centuries, Seattle being the ancestral land of the Duwamish and Suquamish people; and

WHEREAS, indigenous people of this land have continued to resist the violent conquest, oppression, exploitation and victimization by the invaders and colonizers since they first arrived on this continent; and as a result have endured a great amount of trans-generational trauma and woundedness; and that their experience strengthens this movement to expose those on-going inhumane crimes; and

WHEREAS, after centuries of disregard for the welfare of future generations, and the repeated disrespect and exploitation of the Earth, we find ourselves on a violated and polluted planet, lacking the Indigenous people’s wisdom and knowledge to live in balance, harmony and at peace with the community of Life; and

WHEREAS, the term “occupation” has been used by imperialists to colonize indigenous lands

WHEREAS, the term “occupation” has also been reclaimed by militant workers of color from Latin America (Oaxaca, Buenos Aires, South Korea, China among other places) to describe their occupation of factories, schools and neighborhoods, to strike back against the oppressive forces led by racism and capitalism. It is in this context that we use the term “occupy”

WHEREAS the borders of the United States of America are a colonial construct based upon the violent destruction of indigenous land across the continent and therefore illegitimate in our eyes

WHEREAS this land is currently occupied by descendants of slaves kidnapped from the African continent, as well as economic refugees forcibly displaced by the forces of capitalism and imperialism around the world, therefore

AFFIRMED, that we prioritize the involvement of indigenous sovereign people in the redesigning and rebuilding of a new way of living on their ancestral land in the context that there is one mother of us all, our earth mother; and

Awakening to compassion and extending an open hand of friendship and partnership, we hereby invite indigenous members of the Pacific Northwest and all displaced peoples to collaborate with us in this event remembering and reawakening to our original identity as humane beings – that is now initiated on this continent and worldwide simultaneously.

We intend to facilitate the process of healing and reconciliation and implore Indigenous Peoples to share their knowledge and wisdom of stewardship of the earth, water, fire and air to inspire and guide us restore to pure democracy rather than representative democracy as design failure in governing for collective survival; and to initiate a new era of cooperation and peace that is cross-cultural, intergenerational, inclusive and universal in practical application upon Mother Earth with the original indigenous inhabitants of this land.

[Red Arrow]

They are blocking the roads into the port, turning trucks around.  The police are allowing this to happen.  This is awesome!  If Tea Partiers had done this they would be taken out with Predator drones!

I see from pictures in the live blog that there are a few willing to give their lives or at least some limbs and injuries to stop a train.  It is NOT guaranteed that the train will/can stop.

[we vs us]

Oakland shutdown. Vancouver shut down. Portland shut down. Longview shut down. LA/LB partially shut. San Diego has started systematically arresting them.

Geez, Louise . . . you're drooling for this so hard I can hear saliva hitting the pavement from here. 

This is a day of action.  A day.  Not a permanent thing, probably even less than 24 hours.  Which is probably why the police aren't stumbling over themselves to "free the ports for commerce."

Also:   

If Tea Partiers had done this they would be taken out with Predator drones!

Really?

[guido911]

Geez, Louise . . . you're drooling for this so hard I can hear saliva hitting the pavement from here. 

This is a day of action.  A day.  Not a permanent thing, probably even less than 24 hours.  Which is probably why the police aren't stumbling over themselves to "free the ports for commerce."

Also:   






Really?

This stupid bullcrap has been going on for months now. And you should probably check your personal salivation issues when it comes to these pukes. The woody you got over this movement could be used for fracking.

[we vs us]

This stupid bullcrap has been going on for months now. And you should probably check your personal salivation issues when it comes to these pukes. The woody you got over this movement could be used for fracking.

You really need to get out of the basement more often and mingle with real people.  I don't have a woody for anything regarding OWS but they have a right to do this -- and a right to get arrested by the police if they break the law.  Which they have been in spades.  (The also seem to get injured and pepper sprayed more than the average peaceful demonstrators, too, but c'est la vie, right?) 

I also think the info that you're lapping up about the Occupy movement 1) is false but 2) confirms all the stuff you looooove to believe about liberals/hippies/people with a slightly broader political scope than yours.    But you don't seem to be the type to ferret out contrarian viewpoints for your own self-edification so I guess I'll just have to stop replying to you when you spout obviously false bulls***.   

[patric]

Today they are occupying sea ports again, attempting to halt commerce in Oakland.  They currently have the unloading of two ships blocked at berths 55/56 & 30/33.

Didnt something along the lines of interfering with commerce happen long ago in Boston harbor?
I think it was called ... wait for it ...  a "tea party"