Haven't heard much discussion about this property tax, bond issue vote for TCC coming up on 5-13-08.
We are currently being bombarded with local TV ads supporting a yes vote on this issue. As a Tulsa city resident for 50 years, I will be voting a stong "NO." It seems to me a major portion of this bond issue is to construct an Owasso branch of TCC. I say, if Owasso residents want it, let them pay for it.
It is projected that if this passes, it will increase property taxes by $50 per year for every assessed $100,000 value of a Tulsa county home. I am sick and tired of ever-increasing property taxes, due to market value increases or tax votes. Vote NO on 5-13.
I've received several, slick, multi-color brochures promoting the NEW TCC Tax.
When I see smiling children and smiling Tulsa Fire Dept. personnel in the same slick, multi-colored litho ad, I wonder:
WHO is paying for this?
What the Friends of TCC represent is one tentacle of a favors-trading Octopus, which work collaboratively to get each others tax increases passed.
For instance, TPS returns the favor to the Fire and Police departments, helping get each of their respective school bonds and 3rd Penny Sales taxes, respectively, passed and renewed.
TCC is another slimey tentacle of this voracious, tax-grabbing Octopus.
AFTER the TCC election, maybe just MAYBE we'll see who the financial donors are to the TCC PAC, if the Lorton's World deems it newsworthy.
In all likelihood, it's the usual bevy of connected construction companies and their crony sub-contractors, plus a small coven of architects, engineers, bond underwriters, attorneys and accountants:
Vacumning the pockets of Tulsa Taxpayers, again and again, and again, and again, and again.
And AGAIN.
quote:
Originally posted by Steve
Haven't heard much discussion about this property tax, bond issue vote for TCC coming up on 5-13-08.
You mean, other than this discussion, right?
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9075
I'm still leaning towards no. Add a downtown parking garage into the bill, then you might sway me enough to ignore the bad stuff.
I received one of their calls last night. For the first time in my life I am voting against an education proposal.
TCC is a poor administrator of tax dollars imo.
I believe they practice age discrimination.
Their human resources dept. is inept. and unresponsive. (I know this has become common throughout the business world but this is tax dollars)
They cannibalized the areas surrounding the downtown facility for asphalt lots.
Wage disparity is embarrassingly out of balance. Read their classified ads.
I told the caller that at some point TCC will have its attitude with the public reflected back towards them. For me, this is that point.
quote:
Originally posted by twizzler
quote:
It seems to me a major portion of this bond issue is to construct an Owasso branch of TCC.
Approximately $16M of the $76M proposal would go to the Owasso learning center - or 21%. A majority?
quote:
I say, if Owasso residents want it, let them pay for it.
You do realize Owasso residents have been helping to pay for the Tulsa campuses all along?
Yes, including the one 5 miles away. Where is Broken Arrow's Campus? Jenks? Bixby? Sand Springs?
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
I received one of their calls last night. For the first time in my life I am voting against an education proposal.
TCC is a poor administrator of tax dollars imo.
I believe they practice age discrimination.
Their human resources dept. is inept. and unresponsive. (I know this has become common throughout the business world but this is tax dollars)
They cannibalized the areas surrounding the downtown facility for asphalt lots.
Wage disparity is embarrassingly out of balance. Read their classified ads.
I told the caller that at some point TCC will have its attitude with the public reflected back towards them. For me, this is that point.
I also am voting no for the first time.
TCC is a poor downtown citizen, works to block 1st and 2nd year classes from being offered by OSU and OU Tulsa and isn't the higher education entity that we need to work to grow.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
I received one of their calls last night. For the first time in my life I am voting against an education proposal.
TCC is a poor administrator of tax dollars imo.
I believe they practice age discrimination.
Their human resources dept. is inept. and unresponsive. (I know this has become common throughout the business world but this is tax dollars)
They cannibalized the areas surrounding the downtown facility for asphalt lots.
Wage disparity is embarrassingly out of balance. Read their classified ads.
I told the caller that at some point TCC will have its attitude with the public reflected back towards them. For me, this is that point.
I also am voting no for the first time.
TCC is a poor downtown citizen, works to block 1st and 2nd year classes from being offered by OSU and OU Tulsa and isn't the higher education entity that we need to work to grow.
And that'd be a "NO" here for the same reason, though I will say that TCC does offer some career programs which are good, but do quite well within the structure, and buildings they have now. I'm guessing a good soaking is coming on property tax when the road proposal is finally brought forth in it's final form.
quote:
Originally posted by twizzler
quote:
It seems to me a major portion of this bond issue is to construct an Owasso branch of TCC.
Approximately $16M of the $76M proposal would go to the Owasso learning center - or 21%. A majority?
quote:
I say, if Owasso residents want it, let them pay for it.
You do realize Owasso residents have been helping to pay for the Tulsa campuses all along?
I understood that $36 million of these potential proceeds are unallocated, making the Owasso campus over 50% of those that are.
Also not too fond of having over 1/3rd of a tax increase not accounted.
TCC is well funded, otherwise they couldn't offer free tuition and fees, or build and maintain their four existing campuses.
The pay scale and retirement benefits of those in charge are flat astronomical as well.
And, the slug they're being on OSU/OU growing is just wrong. Perhaps if they were out of business altogether, OSU and OU would grow to what we expect. And, we'd save a whole lot of Ad Valorem tax to boot.
Yup, I'm voting NO.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
I received one of their calls last night. For the first time in my life I am voting against an education proposal.
TCC is a poor administrator of tax dollars imo.
I believe they practice age discrimination.
Their human resources dept. is inept. and unresponsive. (I know this has become common throughout the business world but this is tax dollars)
They cannibalized the areas surrounding the downtown facility for asphalt lots.
Wage disparity is embarrassingly out of balance. Read their classified ads.
I told the caller that at some point TCC will have its attitude with the public reflected back towards them. For me, this is that point.
I also am voting no for the first time.
TCC is a poor downtown citizen, works to block 1st and 2nd year classes from being offered by OSU and OU Tulsa and isn't the higher education entity that we need to work to grow.
And that'd be a "NO" here for the same reason, though I will say that TCC does offer some career programs which are good, but do quite well within the structure, and buildings they have now. I'm guessing a good soaking is coming on property tax when the road proposal is finally brought forth in it's final form.
I expect that if TCC were to agree that OSU and OU could offer 1st and 2nd year courses in Tulsa that TCC would find itself with plenty of extra classroom space for any needed expansion of it's more vocational class offerings.
Voting No.
If we spent the money on our schools that we spend on TCC, we wouldn't need TCC.
It is a bloated, mostly unaccountable bueracracy that doesn't give us much back on our investment; we could spend similar funds and attempt to make OSU-Tulsa a real research school.
I'm all for education funding. I always vote yes on every school bond. But this one just stinks.
"Center for Creativity" indeed . . .
quote:
Originally posted by swake
I expect that if TCC were to agree that OSU and OU could offer 1st and 2nd year courses in Tulsa that TCC would find itself with plenty of extra classroom space for any needed expansion of it's more vocational class offerings.
Good point! [}:)]
Help me, Conan. I'm in mainstream opinion and I can't....find... my... way... home. Its all so strange. [:P]
TCC is a moneysucking leach. VOTE NO!
I'm with the consensus here. It just doesn't seem like building suburban community colleges should be at the top of our priority list, given scare resources.
Doesn't Owasso need a driving school for cheerleaders?
http://www.tulsanow.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9244&SearchTerms=owasso,cheerleaders
I have already voted no via absentee. I have a few reasons for doing so. I think Owasso is a great community but I think the campus on Apache is close enough, roughly 10 miles. If Owasso wants a learning center, that is something they could raise in their own bond issue.
I also believe property taxes now are currently high in many areas and we need to be prepared to pay for streets in Tulsa.
Did I read somewhere that this tax would never expire? It just goes on forever?
http://www.kjrh.com/media/news/f/e/a/feacb988-d8f2-4818-afba-48b94311bf84/May1308TulsaTech.pdf
PROPOSITION NO. 1
"Shall Tulsa Community College
Technology Center School District incur
an indebtedness by issuing its bonds in
the sum of Seventy Six Million Dollars
($76,000,000) to provide funds for capital
improvements to provide supplemental
accommodations for post-secondary
vocational and technical education programs
offered at the Tulsa Community
College and levy and collect an annual
tax, in addition to all other taxes, upon all
the taxable property in such District sufficient
to pay the interest on such bonds as
it falls due and also to constitute a sinking
fund for the payment of the principal
thereof when due, said bonds to bear
interest not to exceed the rate of ten
(10%) percentum per annum, payable
semi-annually and to become due serially
within seven years from their date?"
FOR THE PROPOSITION - YES
AGAINST THE PROPOSITION - NO
PROPOSITION NO. 2
"Shall Tulsa Community College
Technology Center School District levy
and collect an annual tax of one and
seven-tenths mills on the dollar valuation
of all the taxable property in such District,
in addition to all other taxes, pursuant to
Article X, Section 9B(A) of the Oklahoma
Constitution, for each fiscal year until
repealed by a majority of the electors of
the School District voting on the question
at an election called for such purpose to
provide additional funds for post-secondary
vocational and/or technical and/or
adult education programs in the School
District?"
FOR THE PROPOSITION - YES
AGAINST THE PROPOSITION - NO
quote:
Originally posted by PonderInc
Did I read somewhere that this tax would never expire? It just goes on forever?
Proposition No. 2 is a permanent 1.7 mill tax increase. Prop. No. 1 is a general obligation bond issue, which amounts to a temporary property tax increase of about 3.1 mills.
The current TCC millage is 7.21.
Thanks Michael.
I always get millage, village, and pillage confused.
I thought Hillary's book was about Atilla the Tax Collector.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
I received one of their calls last night. For the first time in my life I am voting against an education proposal.
TCC is a poor administrator of tax dollars imo.
I believe they practice age discrimination.
Their human resources dept. is inept. and unresponsive. (I know this has become common throughout the business world but this is tax dollars)
They cannibalized the areas surrounding the downtown facility for asphalt lots.
Wage disparity is embarrassingly out of balance. Read their classified ads.
I told the caller that at some point TCC will have its attitude with the public reflected back towards them. For me, this is that point.
I also am voting no for the first time.
TCC is a poor downtown citizen, works to block 1st and 2nd year classes from being offered by OSU and OU Tulsa and isn't the higher education entity that we need to work to grow.
I agree with SWAKE.
The reason that TCC got to be the largest Junior College in Oklahoma is because OU, OSU, TU and ORU blocked for DECADES any 4-year State- supported university branch from being located in Tulsa.
Tulsa was the largest city in the U.S. NOT served by a 4-year state supported university.
Another Tulsa PREMIUM, folks, biting us all on the rear.
When the UCAT consortium/Abortion was cobbled together as a Bad compromise in the early 80's after some Tulsa business leaders and politicians started showing a tiny bit of backbone, even then the most popular programs were channeled to less desirable Northeastern and Langston programs.
Like, who WANTS an accounting degree from Langston?
So, for PROTECTIONIST reasons, TCC was allowed to grow into its gigantic mutant state, due to UNDERSERVED 4-year STATE programs in Tulsa.
Now, they are a giant, tax-sucking political fact.
In fact, they are so large politically, they generate their own gravity, sucking money directly from our pockets due to their inherent magnetism.
Blame it on Sir Isaac Newton?
[:)]
well Im glad to see you traditional yessirs getting on the right side of the issue, but sadly there will be enough lemmings go to the booth next week to force this one through.
quote:
Originally posted by Wrinkle
quote:
Originally posted by twizzler
quote:
It seems to me a major portion of this bond issue is to construct an Owasso branch of TCC.
Approximately $16M of the $76M proposal would go to the Owasso learning center - or 21%. A majority?
quote:
I say, if Owasso residents want it, let them pay for it.
You do realize Owasso residents have been helping to pay for the Tulsa campuses all along?
I understood that $36 million of these potential proceeds are unallocated, making the Owasso campus over 50% of those that are.
Also not too fond of having over 1/3rd of a tax increase not accounted.
TCC is well funded, otherwise they couldn't offer free tuition and fees, or build and maintain their four existing campuses.
The pay scale and retirement benefits of those in charge are flat astronomical as well.
And, the slug they're being on OSU/OU growing is just wrong. Perhaps if they were out of business altogether, OSU and OU would grow to what we expect. And, we'd save a whole lot of Ad Valorem tax to boot.
Yup, I'm voting NO.
Regarding retirement benefits, I fondly remember how my tax dollars funded an extraordinary, special $1 million annuity given to former President Dean Van Trease for services rendered (to the local Construction Cartel and connected cronies).
A sweet kiss in the mail. Every month.
My main problem with this is that our public, 4 year, graduate universities can barely keep up with the large number of students TCC is churning out. Its great that they are getting so many students and I am glad that tuition is so cheap at TCC. But, I would rather be spending money to expand OU Tulsa and OSU Tulsa.
I dont get why so many on here mention that OU and OSU need to expand to offer first 2 year courses? For goodness sakes, expand the 4 year graduate programs to take on and keep the TCC graduates in Tulsa.
I remember when I graduated from TCC. I didnt need another college offering the first 2 years, I needed a college that offered the next 2 years.
TCC is going to be getting more students regardless of whether they expand with this vote. Those students are going to need to take their next 2 years somewhere.... and you want OSU or OU to add more first 2 year programs instead of graduate ones? What on earth would that do? If they get ANY more money, for goodness sakes, add more graduate programs.
If I had my druthers this vote would be for more graduate programs at OU Tulsa and OSU Tulsa. We are gonna be training students and then watching as they then move to some other city and finish their degrees if they cant finish them here.
I cant for the life of me figure out why people would want any limited funds that MAY, hopefully, someday, go to OU Tulsa or OSU Tulsa, to go to pay for first year classes and not graduate classes? They dont have enough graduate courses as it is.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
My main problem with this is that our public, 4 year, graduate universities can barely keep up with the large number of students TCC is churning out. Its great that they are getting so many students and I am glad that tuition is so cheap at TCC. But, I would rather be spending money to expand OU Tulsa and OSU Tulsa.
I dont get why so many on here mention that OU and OSU need to expand to offer first 2 year courses? For goodness sakes, expand the 4 year graduate programs to take on and keep the TCC graduates in Tulsa.
I remember when I graduated from TCC. I didnt need another college offering the first 2 years, I needed a college that offered the next 2 years.
TCC is going to be getting more students regardless of whether they expand with this vote. Those students are going to need to take their next 2 years somewhere.... and you want OSU or OU to add more first 2 year programs instead of graduate ones? What on earth would that do? If they get ANY more money, for goodness sakes, add more graduate programs.
If I had my druthers this vote would be for more graduate programs at OU Tulsa and OSU Tulsa. We are gonna be training students and then watching as they then move to some other city and finish their degrees if they cant finish them here.
I cant for the life of me figure out why people would want any limited funds that MAY, hopefully, someday, go to OU Tulsa or OSU Tulsa, to go to pay for first year classes and not graduate classes? They dont have enough graduate courses as it is.
The idea is that if OSU-Tulsa is ever going to become a true 4-year public university, and complement downtown development with campus expansion including student residences, then it's going to have to have first- and second-year courses.
edit: spelling
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
My main problem with this is that our public, 4 year, graduate universities can barely keep up with the large number of students TCC is churning out. Its great that they are getting so many students and I am glad that tuition is so cheap at TCC. But, I would rather be spending money to expand OU Tulsa and OSU Tulsa.
I dont get why so many on here mention that OU and OSU need to expand to offer first 2 year courses? For goodness sakes, expand the 4 year graduate programs to take on and keep the TCC graduates in Tulsa.
I remember when I graduated from TCC. I didnt need another college offering the first 2 years, I needed a college that offered the next 2 years.
TCC is going to be getting more students regardless of whether they expand with this vote. Those students are going to need to take their next 2 years somewhere.... and you want OSU or OU to add more first 2 year programs instead of graduate ones? What on earth would that do? If they get ANY more money, for goodness sakes, add more graduate programs.
If I had my druthers this vote would be for more graduate programs at OU Tulsa and OSU Tulsa. We are gonna be training students and then watching as they then move to some other city and finish their degrees if they cant finish them here.
I cant for the life of me figure out why people would want any limited funds that MAY, hopefully, someday, go to OU Tulsa or OSU Tulsa, to go to pay for first year classes and not graduate classes? They dont have enough graduate courses as it is.
The idea is that if OSU-Tulsa is ever going to become a true 4-year public university, and complement downtown development with campus expansion including student residences, then it's going to have to have first- and second-year courses.
edit: spelling
For DECADES, OSU, along with TU and ORU fought vociferously against a 4-Year State Supported branch from being located in Tulsa. ORU and TU saw this as a threat to their local COMMUTER student base who had very few options for a 4-Year degree locally.
Why did OSU oppose it: Because the state legislators representing those powerful interests at OSU, for instance, just couldn't brook the thought of Eskimo Joe's selling less beer, or the Hideaway Pizza selling less pizza.
Or, the slum-lord landlords missing high occupancy rates and strong rack rents.
Again, this is Tulsans paying the Tulsa PREMIUM because of terrible local business and political leadership - For DECADES.
Even during periods when Tulsans held position State Senate Leader (Roger Randle and Finis Smith), and Governor (David Hall and Frank Keating). These men were serving a DIFFERENT constituency than TULSA.
OKC does not have this problem, because it has OU-Norman within easy commuting distance of their metroplex.
Tulsa is left with an adopted step child called OSU-Tulsa, that the Foster Parent OSU counseled ABORTION during the early gestation period of its UCAT existence.
And, the state awarded ultimately Custody to the Abortionist - OSU - Tulsa.
That just figures.
Welcome to Oklahoma. Meet Dumb and Dumber.
Did I mention we have 27 different state university SYSTEMS?
What does these people think we are made of??? With the price of gas food and other bills,im having a very very hard time feeding and housing my family!!! Im so sick of these money hungery pigs in pubic office making all these bs plans to them richer and the working people more poor!!! I have a plan to fix it, fire every damn one of them and start over!!! The new mayor will punch a time card and get 15 an hour and no work no pay and that goes for the rest of them from the top of the list to the bottom! Im sorry folks I would love to vote yes but I will vote NO this time.
I think it would be great to have a campus here in Owasso, especially since it ties into the new hospitals. That translates quickly into jobs, and unless you've been hiding under a rock somewhere, we desperately need nurses and technicians. More jobs yield more taxpayers and more money for local government.
quote:
Originally posted by gary
What does these people think we are made of??? With the price of gas food and other bills,im having a very very hard time feeding and housing my family!!! Im so sick of these money hungery pigs in pubic office making all these bs plans to them richer and the working people more poor!!! I have a plan to fix it, fire every damn one of them and start over!!! The new mayor will punch a time card and get 15 an hour and no work no pay and that goes for the rest of them from the top of the list to the bottom! Im sorry folks I would love to vote yes but I will vote NO this time.
The major elements of the local power establishment (do I smell Flint-co or Rooney-Co) really does not care the slightest about your budget squeeze.
They have a much more important objective:
They NEED to FEED their GREED.
And, they are ALWAYS hungry.
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by gary
What does these people think we are made of??? With the price of gas food and other bills,im having a very very hard time feeding and housing my family!!! Im so sick of these money hungery pigs in pubic office making all these bs plans to them richer and the working people more poor!!! I have a plan to fix it, fire every damn one of them and start over!!! The new mayor will punch a time card and get 15 an hour and no work no pay and that goes for the rest of them from the top of the list to the bottom! Im sorry folks I would love to vote yes but I will vote NO this time.
Ummm, perhaps if you went to college and got a better paying job... I know of a college that has very flexible hours for adult students and is extremely affordable. And ya know what... Its right here in town and has several campuses to pick from.
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
My main problem with this is that our public, 4 year, graduate universities can barely keep up with the large number of students TCC is churning out. Its great that they are getting so many students and I am glad that tuition is so cheap at TCC. But, I would rather be spending money to expand OU Tulsa and OSU Tulsa.
I dont get why so many on here mention that OU and OSU need to expand to offer first 2 year courses? For goodness sakes, expand the 4 year graduate programs to take on and keep the TCC graduates in Tulsa.
I remember when I graduated from TCC. I didnt need another college offering the first 2 years, I needed a college that offered the next 2 years.
TCC is going to be getting more students regardless of whether they expand with this vote. Those students are going to need to take their next 2 years somewhere.... and you want OSU or OU to add more first 2 year programs instead of graduate ones? What on earth would that do? If they get ANY more money, for goodness sakes, add more graduate programs.
If I had my druthers this vote would be for more graduate programs at OU Tulsa and OSU Tulsa. We are gonna be training students and then watching as they then move to some other city and finish their degrees if they cant finish them here.
I cant for the life of me figure out why people would want any limited funds that MAY, hopefully, someday, go to OU Tulsa or OSU Tulsa, to go to pay for first year classes and not graduate classes? They dont have enough graduate courses as it is.
The idea is that if OSU-Tulsa is ever going to become a true 4-year public university, and complement downtown development with campus expansion including student residences, then it's going to have to have first- and second-year courses.
edit: spelling
I think OSU Tulsa and TCC metro could basically make that 4 year university. There are students who live on campus at TU and go to TCC right now. Can happen with OSU if they build the housing.
It would be nice if OSU were able to add first year classes, but at this immediate point in time I would rather them add more graduate classes... and housing. We are not gonna get both, there is only so much money available for us to beg for and who knows if we are going to get any, period. I am just thinking for the moment how do we use what money we may eventually get for OSU Tulsa, what would do the most good right now? Housing, more graduate classes and tying OSU and TCC metro together would give us the most immediate bang for the buck. Then growing OSU from there with first year classes. Its good to have a live on campus, but its also good to have graduate programs and classes at OSU, for those who have started at any TCC campus, rather than leaving the area or state to go to some other graduate college. My sister moved to Arkansas to get her graduate degree. Stop a lot of people from having to leave the entire area first, then focus on getting more and more to stay downtown.
This whole situation is still a mess, but it is getting better, has gotten better.
quote:
Originally posted by gary
What does these people think we are made of??? With the price of gas food and other bills,im having a very very hard time feeding and housing my family!!! Im so sick of these money hungery pigs in pubic office making all these bs plans to them richer and the working people more poor!!! I have a plan to fix it, fire every damn one of them and start over!!! The new mayor will punch a time card and get 15 an hour and no work no pay and that goes for the rest of them from the top of the list to the bottom! Im sorry folks I would love to vote yes but I will vote NO this time.
You do know that is $15/hr more than the Mayor makes now, right?
Also, assuming you live in a house that costs $100,000 or less, this is $2 a month.
P.S. "Pubic Office" made me giggle.
quote:
Originally posted by Ed W
I think it would be great to have a campus here in Owasso, especially since it ties into the new hospitals. That translates quickly into jobs, and unless you've been hiding under a rock somewhere, we desperately need nurses and technicians. More jobs yield more taxpayers and more money for local government.
...and they already have nursing and tech programs within their existing building structure. I fail to see the hardship in someone having to commute to SE, Metro, or NE to get their certification.
A friend of mine is doing her LPN to RN "bridge" program right now. She lives at 51st & Yale. I'm sure there are plenty of potential nurses and techs living within a mile or so of there. St. Francis and the Warren Medical compound is at 61st & Yale. So why not just build another TCC campus on the east side of LaFortune Park to be convenient to St. Francis and all the potential students living around there?
Sorry Ed, I smell a waste of money on this one. We don't need any more public college campuses to fund and operate. If anything, we need to look at consolidating programs within the existing campuses we have.
People keep wondering why Tulsa flounders at attracting new business. One reason is a confusing maze of contiguous higher education in the metro area.
Hey, I know! Let's improve and expand the campuses we already have...and then build a rail line that connects the folks in the burbs with those education centers, (and job centers) so they can get there fast and affordably!
I wonder which investment makes more sense in the long run...constantly spreading out the infrastructure and making redundant capital invesments...or maximizing existing locations? Hmmmm.
By the way, the NE campus sits on a huge acreage. I bet they bought all that to allow for...uh...expansion.
quote:
I fail to see the hardship in someone having to commute to SE, Metro, or NE to get their certification.
I heard Obama say yesterday that he's meeting people who can't make it to job interviews because gas is so expensive. You heartless jerk, you're out of touch with the common man and his plight. Maybe we should buy people gas so they can commute!
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
I fail to see the hardship in someone having to commute to SE, Metro, or NE to get their certification.
I heard Obama say yesterday that he's meeting people who can't make it to job interviews because gas is so expensive. You heartless jerk, you're out of touch with the common man and his plight. Maybe we should buy people gas so they can commute!
Awwww gee whiz, if a Presidential candidate says it in an election year, it must be so. I
am such a egocentric putz.
Good to see you around again, IP.
I am glad I started this thread and to see a majority of respondents agree with me for a change.
This TCC bond issue is a bad deal for property owners and I encourage all registered voters to vote NO on this deal.
I am a little torn on this. I want to see our higher educational offerings expanded. When compared to "best places to live" etc. We spend pitifully little and have little to offer in comparison to those places. Plus you just know intuitively that education is the key to a prosperous city. BUT the question becomes, how to best spend further investments? Are they listening to the community? I really dont have a lot of info about this vote, they say what they want but dont give real reasons. I know we need more higher educational offerings,"we easily need a billion dollars worth of investments to get us anywhere near where we should be and this 75mill is a tiny amount comparatively, but they should still explain their logic for why they are asking for these particular things and not others.
I would be glad to pay for more, just want to make sure that this "more" is the right "more", if ya get my drift. There should be better conversation with the community, we are after all the ones being asked to pay for it.
I will probably vote for it and take them for their word this time... But it is making me aware that we need to have some sort of over arching goal, a long range plan and vision that everyone can see and understand, and that most agree on. However, if this vote doesnt pass, hopefully this will make them aware that they need to approach this differently and take in more of the different considerations that people have. Not just expansion and us just trusting, but wise expansion with a long range plan that the colleges and the citizens agree on.
quote:
Originally posted by Steve
I am glad I started this thread and to see a majority of respondents agree with me for a change.
This TCC bond issue is a bad deal for property owners and I encourage all registered voters to vote NO on this deal.
Notice the Wall-to-Wall slick TV ads on all local cable stations promoting the Vote Yes tax campaign?
I suspect the Cox Cable Coterie is contributing IN-KIND TV time to the Vote Yes campaign. They've done it many times before to help pass local Tax-and-Spend schemes.
Your monthly Cox Cable premiums at work.
I've also received 3 slick, multi-color Vote Yes brochures in the mail in the past few weeks.
All featuring smiling pictures of allegedly smiling students.
I even received one last week with smiling Tulsa Firemen.
Everyone's smiling.
Why aren't I smiling, too?
And, I've heard of live telephone solicitors calling Tulsa County voters for a Yes Vote.
Wonder how much the Vote Yes Tax Vampires are spending on their Tax-and-Spend campaign?
MUST be Lots.
Funny how there are campaign limits on individual political candidates, but NO CONTRIBUTION LIMITS on "non-partisan" Tax campaigns in Oklahoma?
Welcome to our Banana Republic! Our local Banana Republic rigs the deck against you here from the day you are born, every day you breathe, until you take your last breath.
The local ruling Oligarcha Familias just want to keep the tax dollars flowing to line their own pockets.
In order to build upon their Third Fortunes.
They Need to Feed their Greed.
Of course, we won't see the Vote Yes campaign donor list for this PAC until long after the election is over. The Lorton's World frequently forgets to publish this Tax PAC Contributions and Expenditures reports.
I suspect the Vote YES TCC Taxes campaign is funded, as is their SOP, with contributions from the major local construction companies (Manhattan/Rooneys and Flintco/Flints?), and their connected cronies who divide up the sub-contracting, bond underwriting (F&M/Lortons and BOK/Kaiser?), bond attorneys (Riggs, Abney, Neal, Turpen, Orbison et al?), accounting firms, and architects and engineers (Benham and Matrix?).
Then, they are allowed to recover their campaign contributions by Sole-Source "bidding" and off-market pricing for services, like BOND UNDERWRITING Fees, Bond Agent fees, and Bond Attorneys.
Don't expect competitive bidding at the County.
Nada.
It's the Cabal's favorite local honey pot, next to the City of Tulsa and that big, fat Tax honeypot called the Department of Public Werkes, as well as the various city "Authorities" including those big, juicy Tax honeypots called TAIT, TDA, and TMUA.
What a conscience-less tax-payer fleecing racket.
[:O]
I was going to vote no. The $76 million dollars it will raise is almost the same amount of money we could use to build a new baseball stadium and hotels for downtown. I thought that four campuses was enough and didn't feel they needed a new one in Owasso when the Northest campus is 6 miles from their downtown. The personal impact to my property taxes is going to be over ten dollars a month.
Then I read that friendly bear was against it because it was some conspiracy by the ruling families and it had something to do with bananas and vampires.
I like rulers, families and bananas and don't believe in vampires. So now, I am for it.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I was going to vote no. The $76 million dollars it will raise is almost the same amount of money we could use to build a new baseball stadium and hotels for downtown. I thought that four campuses was enough and didn't feel they needed a new one in Owasso when the Northest campus is 6 miles from their downtown. The personal impact to my property taxes is going to be over ten dollars a month.
Then I read that friendly bear was against it because it was some conspiracy by the ruling families and it had something to do with bananas and vampires.
I like rulers, families and bananas and don't believe in vampires. So now, I am for it.
Just block his posts. He's sociopathic and has never brightened my day, so I e-ignore him.
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I was going to vote no. The $76 million dollars it will raise is almost the same amount of money we could use to build a new baseball stadium and hotels for downtown. I thought that four campuses was enough and didn't feel they needed a new one in Owasso when the Northest campus is 6 miles from their downtown. The personal impact to my property taxes is going to be over ten dollars a month.
Then I read that friendly bear was against it because it was some conspiracy by the ruling families and it had something to do with bananas and vampires.
I like rulers, families and bananas and don't believe in vampires. So now, I am for it.
Just block his posts. He's sociopathic and has never brightened my day, so I e-ignore him.
I'm just a dadgummed optimist. Someday he will directly answer someone's questions and I want to be there on that day.
Michael Bates talked about this issue in his column in the UTW. http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A21057
I thought this was an interesting point:
"TCC is one of only three community colleges supported by local property taxes. The other two, Rose State College in Midwest City and Oklahoma City Community College, are both in Oklahoma County.
"TCC taxpayers nearly match the state's contribution to TCC's annual budget -- $31 million in local property taxes to $37 million in state appropriations.
"Oklahoma County patrons, as usual, get off easy: The ratio of local support to state appropriation is only 12% for OCCC and 7% for Rose State. Tulsa always seems to pay for what Oklahoma City gets cheap or for free."
quote:
Originally posted by PonderInc
Michael Bates talked about this issue in his column in the UTW. http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A21057
I thought this was an interesting point:
"TCC is one of only three community colleges supported by local property taxes. The other two, Rose State College in Midwest City and Oklahoma City Community College, are both in Oklahoma County.
"TCC taxpayers nearly match the state's contribution to TCC's annual budget -- $31 million in local property taxes to $37 million in state appropriations.
"Oklahoma County patrons, as usual, get off easy: The ratio of local support to state appropriation is only 12% for OCCC and 7% for Rose State. Tulsa always seems to pay for what Oklahoma City gets cheap or for free."
Why?
Because, it's the Tulsa PREMIUM!
That's why.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I was going to vote no. The $76 million dollars it will raise is almost the same amount of money we could use to build a new baseball stadium and hotels for downtown. I thought that four campuses was enough and didn't feel they needed a new one in Owasso when the Northest campus is 6 miles from their downtown. The personal impact to my property taxes is going to be over ten dollars a month.
Then I read that friendly bear was against it because it was some conspiracy by the ruling families and it had something to do with bananas and vampires.
I like rulers, families and bananas and don't believe in vampires. So now, I am for it.
It's heartening to know that I have so much influence with a Forum poster.
Thanks!
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I was going to vote no. The $76 million dollars it will raise is almost the same amount of money we could use to build a new baseball stadium and hotels for downtown. I thought that four campuses was enough and didn't feel they needed a new one in Owasso when the Northest campus is 6 miles from their downtown. The personal impact to my property taxes is going to be over ten dollars a month.
Then I read that friendly bear was against it because it was some conspiracy by the ruling families and it had something to do with bananas and vampires.
I like rulers, families and bananas and don't believe in vampires. So now, I am for it.
Just block his posts. He's sociopathic and has never brightened my day, so I e-ignore him.
Good point. I think he makes some wise points on the TCC issue, but then feels like he needs to go off on the crazy black helicopter stuff while he has our attention. It would be better just to stick to the issue here.
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I was going to vote no. The $76 million dollars it will raise is almost the same amount of money we could use to build a new baseball stadium and hotels for downtown. I thought that four campuses was enough and didn't feel they needed a new one in Owasso when the Northest campus is 6 miles from their downtown. The personal impact to my property taxes is going to be over ten dollars a month.
Then I read that friendly bear was against it because it was some conspiracy by the ruling families and it had something to do with bananas and vampires.
I like rulers, families and bananas and don't believe in vampires. So now, I am for it.
Just block his posts. He's sociopathic and has never brightened my day, so I e-ignore him.
Good point. I think he makes some wise points on the TCC issue, but then feels like he needs to go off on the crazy black helicopter stuff while he has our attention. It would be better just to stick to the issue here.
Helicopters?
Who said Helicopters?
Are they BLACK helicopters?
I think RecycleMichael actually was the Poster who brought up Black Helicopters on another Topic in this Discussion Forum.
No me. Sorry.
Where's my Tin Foil cap?
[;)]
FB, you don't know what you're talking about. Other than road funding, health care facilities, government jobs, full State Universities, toll-free highways, community colleges and an NBA franchise - Tulsa isn't force to subsidize that much in Oklahoma City.
Wait, crap. Nm. [xx(]
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
FB, you don't know what you're talking about. Other than road funding, health care facilities, government jobs, full State Universities, toll-free highways, community colleges and an NBA franchise - Tulsa isn't force to subsidize that much in Oklahoma City.
Wait, crap. Nm. [xx(]
Oklahoma City also seems to get much more than a equal share of FEDERAL government jobs, too. Like FAA. Tinker.
Wonder WHY?
Regarding Tulsa's disproportionate funding our OUR Junior College vs. Oklahoma City's paltry contribution, you probably noticed Michael Bates' analysis in his Urban Tulsa weekly column:
http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A21057
I thought this was an interesting point:
"TCC is one of only three community colleges supported by local property taxes. The other two, Rose State College in Midwest City and Oklahoma City Community College, are both in Oklahoma County.
"TCC taxpayers nearly match the state's contribution to TCC's annual budget -- $31 million in local property taxes to $37 million in state appropriations.
"Oklahoma County patrons, as usual, get off easy: The ratio of local support to state appropriation is only 12% for OCCC and 7% for Rose State. Tulsa always seems to pay for what Oklahoma City gets cheap or for free."
That's the unique Tulsa PREMIUM I've commented on ad infinitum. Some detractors would say Ad Nauseum.
This was just sent to my email box from the Tulsa Mini Chamber..
Workforce Attraction Focus of TCC Works
Vote this Tuesday, May 13
On Tuesday, May 13, a bond option will appear on a special election ballot and Tulsa County voters will have the opportunity to vote for facility improvements at all four Tulsa Community College campuses, expand the college#146;s programs and services and create new job opportunities throughout the region. Education prepares the workforce of tomorrow, and with the increasing demand to fill jobs in the Tulsa region, TCC continues to provide quality education to more than 27,000 students annually - a resource to secure economic growth in Tulsa.
Young professionals are encouraged to show strength at the polls which reflects your interest in the future of the region. TYPros would like to encourage you to visit the polls on May 13 and cast your vote, whatever your opinion.
quote:
Originally posted by zstyles
This was just sent to my email box from the Tulsa Mini Chamber..
Workforce Attraction Focus of TCC Works
Vote this Tuesday, May 13
On Tuesday, May 13, a bond option will appear on a special election ballot and Tulsa County voters will have the opportunity to vote for facility improvements at all four Tulsa Community College campuses, expand the college#146;s programs and services and create new job opportunities throughout the region. Education prepares the workforce of tomorrow, and with the increasing demand to fill jobs in the Tulsa region, TCC continues to provide quality education to more than 27,000 students annually - a resource to secure economic growth in Tulsa.
Young professionals are encouraged to show strength at the polls which reflects your interest in the future of the region. TYPros would like to encourage you to visit the polls on May 13 and cast your vote, whatever your opinion.
dude, the same lobby cronies who were behind the river tax are behind this one. ALl of their backs must be raw from so much scratching. The "leader" of my company sent out a "me too" email like I'm sure lots of other Kaiserturd followers have too.
FB is right, there is a huge cartel of these tax me more mother****ers in midtown that have a huge network of "vote like me" email drones out there.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
quote:
Originally posted by gary
What does these people think we are made of??? With the price of gas food and other bills,im having a very very hard time feeding and housing my family!!! Im so sick of these money hungery pigs in pubic office making all these bs plans to them richer and the working people more poor!!! I have a plan to fix it, fire every damn one of them and start over!!! The new mayor will punch a time card and get 15 an hour and no work no pay and that goes for the rest of them from the top of the list to the bottom! Im sorry folks I would love to vote yes but I will vote NO this time.
You do know that is $15/hr more than the Mayor makes now, right?
Also, assuming you live in a house that costs $100,000 or less, this is $2 a month.
P.S. "Pubic Office" made me giggle.
Da Mare makes 103,000 dollars a year, she mysteriously does not accept the salary somehow. As shadows suggests, Charter be damned. The fact that she claims to save the city money by not accepting the salary while ballooning the bureaucracy in her majesty's court and repeatedly raising Tulsa's utility rates, regressively impacting at-risk Tulsans the most, to balance the budget while our suburban neighbors do not share in the increased burden with a straight face is disgustingly shameful. It is an outright insult to the intelligence of Tulsans.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I was going to vote no. The $76 million dollars it will raise is almost the same amount of money we could use to build a new baseball stadium and hotels for downtown. I thought that four campuses was enough and didn't feel they needed a new one in Owasso when the Northest campus is 6 miles from their downtown. The personal impact to my property taxes is going to be over ten dollars a month.
Then I read that friendly bear was against it because it was some conspiracy by the ruling families and it had something to do with bananas and vampires.
I like rulers, families and bananas and don't believe in vampires. So now, I am for it.
No wonder Spincycle is a staunch supporter of bloated, bureaucratic, banana republic style, local government? Make $ense, since it's served da Family LLC so succe$$fully.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by zstyles
This was just sent to my email box from the Tulsa Mini Chamber..
Workforce Attraction Focus of TCC Works
Vote this Tuesday, May 13
On Tuesday, May 13, a bond option will appear on a special election ballot and Tulsa County voters will have the opportunity to vote for facility improvements at all four Tulsa Community College campuses, expand the college#146;s programs and services and create new job opportunities throughout the region. Education prepares the workforce of tomorrow, and with the increasing demand to fill jobs in the Tulsa region, TCC continues to provide quality education to more than 27,000 students annually - a resource to secure economic growth in Tulsa.
Young professionals are encouraged to show strength at the polls which reflects your interest in the future of the region. TYPros would like to encourage you to visit the polls on May 13 and cast your vote, whatever your opinion.
dude, the same lobby cronies who were behind the river tax are behind this one. ALl of their backs must be raw from so much scratching. The "leader" of my company sent out a "me too" email like I'm sure lots of other Kaiserturd followers have too.
FB is right, there is a huge cartel of these tax me more mother****ers in midtown that have a huge network of "vote like me" email drones out there.
The Vote YES PAC "Citizens for TCC" needs some education themselves about our local city ordinance concerning the placement of SIGNS in the city Right-of-Way.
RecycleMichael, why haven't you educated the
Citizens for TCC Tax Vampires that it is against the LAW to place their signs in the city right of way??
Over the weekend, I saw a number of TCC Works signs populating our city right-of-way.
And, today, akin to a new crop of evil toadstools strewn overnight by nefarious ghouls and goblins, I suddenly discover along the main arterials streets that I drive to work, TCC Works signs all along the City Right-of-Way, right next to the curb.
Why can't people just obey the LAW?
Educate them, RecycleMichael. Aren't you still leading the local anti-Sign Gestapo?
Oh, you're waiting until
AFTER the election to tell them?
Figures.
[:O]
Is anyone here actually voting FOR this?
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
No wonder Spincycle is a staunch supporter of bloated, bureaucratic, banana republic style, local government? Make $ense, since it's served da Family LLC so succe$$fully.
Drat. I've been exposed.
Yes. In exchange for my vote, my kids will be offered free tuition upon graduation from a Tulsa high school.
Now all we have to do is make sure:
My kids must live in Tulsa County and graduate from high school with a 2.0 GPA or better on a 4.0 scale. Students must meet the following criteria to remain a Tulsa Achieves scholar while at TCC:
maintain good academic standing (2.0 GPA or higher), enroll continuously each fall and spring semester (summer optional), complete a financial aid application (FAFSA) each year, and provide 40 hours of community service per academic year.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Educate them, RecycleMichael. Aren't you still leading the local anti-Sign Gestapo?
I haven't seen many signs for or against the campaign.
Yes. Illegal signs bad.
I hadn't realized TCC had gotten so expensive.
$85.45 + fees per credit hour.
You might as well go to a real school for those kind of prices.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Educate them, RecycleMichael. Aren't you still leading the local anti-Sign Gestapo?
I haven't seen many signs for or against the campaign.
Yes. Illegal signs bad.
Not seeing the TCC Works signs? Are driving around again with your eyes closed?
The arterials are covered with them this a.m.
BIG jump in the placement of signs overnight. Mostly illegally placed.
Go get 'em.
Haven't seen any City of Tulsa Publik Werkes trucks hauling them off, either.
Why? Because there are NO Vote NO signs to vacumn up. Only the Vote YES variety, which the Mayor supports.
Right?
[B)]
I am sure that the public works crews are going to pick up any illegal signs.
I haven't driven all over town this morning. If they just appeared overnight, it will take a little time to pick them up. Do you really expect the sign crews to have completely cleaned every arterial street of illegal signs in the middle of the night? Especially after you consistently try to limit their funding?
Why do you assume that the city is in favor of this tax? I would assume city budget people would not be in favor because every tax competes with every other tax in the citizen's mind of overall tax burden.
I think you just want to whine...
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I am sure that the public works crews are going to pick up any illegal signs.
I haven't driven all over town this morning. If they just appeared overnight, it will take a little time to pick them up. Do you really expect the sign crews to have completely cleaned every arterial street of illegal signs in the middle of the night? Especially after you consistently try to limit their funding?
Why do you assume that the city is in favor of this tax? I would assume city budget people would not be in favor because every tax competes with every other tax in the citizen's mind of overall tax burden.
I think you just want to whine...
Your Mayor Kathy Taylor is on RECORD as in favor of the tax. She has spoken publically in favor of the new TCC tax.
Doesn't the Dept. of Publik Werkes report to HER?
And, you certainly know well and good that if there was an organized Vote NO group against this new TCC tax, and they had some signs out, they wouldn't last long.
The police patrol cars are spotters, and when they report them in, the Publik Werkes trucks are dispatched to vacumn them up.
Augmented by those wonderful, civic minded Volunteers who want to beautify the city by vacumning Vote No signs from yards and roadways.
[}:)]
This entire election is being held on edge of proper.
TCC didn't even hold any of the traditional public town meetings to pump their deal.
And, to look at this mornings' Tulsa World, you'd have no clue it's an Election Day from the front page.
The fewer voters who turn out, the better chance this has of passage. So, people, you need to go VOTE TODAY!
quote:
Originally posted by Wrinkle
This entire election is being held on edge of proper.
TCC didn't even hold any of the traditional public town meetings to pump their deal.
And, to look at this mornings' Tulsa World, you'd have no clue it's an Election Day from the front page.
The fewer voters who turn out, the better chance this has of passage. So, people, you need to go VOTE TODAY!
I voted NO!
[:X]
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Your Mayor Kathy Taylor is on RECORD as in favor of the tax. She has spoken publically in favor of the new TCC tax.
Doesn't the Dept. of Publik Werkes report to HER?
Beware Kevin Bacon.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I am sure that the public works crews are going to pick up any illegal signs.
I haven't driven all over town this morning. If they just appeared overnight, it will take a little time to pick them up. Do you really expect the sign crews to have completely cleaned every arterial street of illegal signs in the middle of the night? Especially after you consistently try to limit their funding?
Why do you assume that the city is in favor of this tax? I would assume city budget people would not be in favor because every tax competes with every other tax in the citizen's mind of overall tax burden.
I think you just want to whine...
Your Mayor Kathy Taylor is on RECORD as in favor of the tax. She has spoken publically in favor of the new TCC tax.
Doesn't the Dept. of Publik Werkes report to HER?
And, you certainly know well and good that if there was an organized Vote NO group against this new TCC tax, and they had some signs out, they wouldn't last long.
The police patrol cars are spotters, and when they report them in, the Publik Werkes trucks are dispatched to vacumn them up.
Augmented by those wonderful, civic minded Volunteers who want to beautify the city by vacumning Vote No signs from yards and roadways.
[}:)]
I think it's probably hard for KT to come out against TCC.
I do know for a fact a high ranking member of your alleged cabal is very much against this plan.
KT's comments have been pretty limited. I'm not happy she endorsed it, but I'm not surprised either. It's a tough position to be in.
I voted at 11:00 AM. I was voter #16.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Educate them, RecycleMichael. Aren't you still leading the local anti-Sign Gestapo?
I haven't seen many signs for or against the campaign.
Yes. Illegal signs bad.
I haven't seen any illegal signs, either.
Yeah, i saw illegal signs off of an exit ramp on 169 or BA don't remember which, but no big deal. Not very many. I was #18 at my precinct and am usually around 120.
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
I think it's probably hard for KT to come out against TCC.
I do know for a fact a high ranking member of your alleged cabal is very much against this plan.
Why haven't we heard from this person publicly?
If the reason is fear, then if even the rich and powerful are afraid to speak their minds, what hope does Tulsa have of real civic dialogue?
Or perhaps it's simply a worry that if A opposes B's tax increase, B will come out against A's tax increase.
Here's another possibility: Parents try to present a united front to their children. If one disagrees with the other spouse on a matter of child-rearing, they may discuss it in private, but in front of the children they support one another's decisions. Perhaps the "alleged cabal" regards the general public as children and sees themselves in the parental role. We might be confused if we see our betters disagreeing with each other in public.
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I am sure that the public works crews are going to pick up any illegal signs.
I haven't driven all over town this morning. If they just appeared overnight, it will take a little time to pick them up. Do you really expect the sign crews to have completely cleaned every arterial street of illegal signs in the middle of the night? Especially after you consistently try to limit their funding?
Why do you assume that the city is in favor of this tax? I would assume city budget people would not be in favor because every tax competes with every other tax in the citizen's mind of overall tax burden.
I think you just want to whine...
Your Mayor Kathy Taylor is on RECORD as in favor of the tax. She has spoken publically in favor of the new TCC tax.
Doesn't the Dept. of Publik Werkes report to HER?
And, you certainly know well and good that if there was an organized Vote NO group against this new TCC tax, and they had some signs out, they wouldn't last long.
The police patrol cars are spotters, and when they report them in, the Publik Werkes trucks are dispatched to vacumn them up.
Augmented by those wonderful, civic minded Volunteers who want to beautify the city by vacumning Vote No signs from yards and roadways.
[}:)]
I think it's probably hard for KT to come out against TCC.
I do know for a fact a high ranking member of your alleged cabal is very much against this plan.
KT's comments have been pretty limited. I'm not happy she endorsed it, but I'm not surprised either. It's a tough position to be in.
I voted at 11:00 AM. I was voter #16.
TCC, TTC, TPS, TPD, TFD, OSU-Tulsa, and TulsaMetroChamberPots are part of a reciprocal FAVORS-TRADING network.
Greater Tulsa Home Builders Assn. and Tulsa Metro Area Realtors also go along with any tax increase that doesn't directly affect them as a group.
Collectively, they work to support each others tax renewals and tax increases.
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelBates
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
I think it's probably hard for KT to come out against TCC.
I do know for a fact a high ranking member of your alleged cabal is very much against this plan.
Why haven't we heard from this person publicly?
If the reason is fear, then if even the rich and powerful are afraid to speak their minds, what hope does Tulsa have of real civic dialogue?
Or perhaps it's simply a worry that if A opposes B's tax increase, B will come out against A's tax increase.
Here's another possibility: Parents try to present a united front to their children. If one disagrees with the other spouse on a matter of child-rearing, they may discuss it in private, but in front of the children they support one another's decisions. Perhaps the "alleged cabal" regards the general public as children and sees themselves in the parental role. We might be confused if we see our betters disagreeing with each other in public.
I think the reason is obvious. This person has goals for elected office.
The good fight here would have been nipping this in the bud before it got on the ballot. Sadly, we don't have the right people to do that, I sudpect. Who made the call to get this on the ballot?
I tend to be in favor of the projects that we vote on locally, but this one clearly stinks. I think there is broad agreement on this site on that end, which is peculiar to me.
I also agree that this doesn't pass the smell test insofar as they are trying to get low voter turnout.
I voted at about 11:00 AM, and I was voter 24 at my precinct. I feel quite powerful, making executive decisions like this all by myself.... Too bad it's a vote, not a lottery. My chances would be terrific!
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Educate them, RecycleMichael. Aren't you still leading the local anti-Sign Gestapo?
I haven't seen many signs for or against the campaign.
Yes. Illegal signs bad.
I walked (yes WALKED) up to my poling place today, Berean Baptist Church at 21st & Darlinton. I have seen today many "Vote Yes" signs, mostly along major arterial streets and public/school properties. I have not seen "vote No" signs, and all Yes signs were on the rights-of-way of public property. I did not see one "yes" sign in the yard of any private residence.
Interesting to see how this will pan out. As stated before, I cast a big "no" vote on both issues.
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelBates
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
I think it's probably hard for KT to come out against TCC.
I do know for a fact a high ranking member of your alleged cabal is very much against this plan.
Why haven't we heard from this person publicly?
If the reason is fear, then if even the rich and powerful are afraid to speak their minds, what hope does Tulsa have of real civic dialogue?
Or perhaps it's simply a worry that if A opposes B's tax increase, B will come out against A's tax increase.
Here's another possibility: Parents try to present a united front to their children. If one disagrees with the other spouse on a matter of child-rearing, they may discuss it in private, but in front of the children they support one another's decisions. Perhaps the "alleged cabal" regards the general public as children and sees themselves in the parental role. We might be confused if we see our betters disagreeing with each other in public.
We got a flavor of the power of Political disunity during the recently failed Kaiser River Tax.
When the Mayor of Broken Arrow and his entire city council as well as North Tulsa politicians like Jack Henderson and Roscoe Turner came out against the River Tax, that definitely broke any unified front from the Politician mouthpieces singing from the same "Tax-Me-More" hymnal.
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelBates
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
I think it's probably hard for KT to come out against TCC.
I do know for a fact a high ranking member of your alleged cabal is very much against this plan.
Why haven't we heard from this person publicly?
If the reason is fear, then if even the rich and powerful are afraid to speak their minds, what hope does Tulsa have of real civic dialogue?
Or perhaps it's simply a worry that if A opposes B's tax increase, B will come out against A's tax increase.
Here's another possibility: Parents try to present a united front to their children. If one disagrees with the other spouse on a matter of child-rearing, they may discuss it in private, but in front of the children they support one another's decisions. Perhaps the "alleged cabal" regards the general public as children and sees themselves in the parental role. We might be confused if we see our betters disagreeing with each other in public.
Word. Spectacular analysis of the local political scene as usual.
(http://media001.g4tv.com/images/blog/2007/12/06/633325462873135493.jpg)
Congratulations to Tulsa on this one for not just blindly passing another bond issue.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
(http://media001.g4tv.com/images/blog/2007/12/06/633325462873135493.jpg)
Congratulations to Tulsa on this one for not just blindly passing another bond issue.
PINCH me, I can't believe I'm awake.
I think I must have fallen asleep watching the 10 O'Clock news, and this must be a dream...
A new tax promoted heavily by the Lorton's World has FAILED?
Wow.
Miniscule turnout.
Would have thought that low turnout would favor the Tax Vampires?
Well, the Tax Vampires can just retire back to their crypt, until they feel hungry again......
Soon......?
[}:)]
Now, I wasnt for this particular tax. But I am not against all taxes or for all tax cuts. To just paint all taxes as bad period or to paint someone who may be for a tax as "Tax Vampires" seems a bit extreme and I do not agree with that sentiment.
Just because I was against this tax does not mean I am against all taxes or against possible taxes for college education. I just never heard a convincing argument for it in this case. I think we need to grow our colleges but at this point would prefer it be for OSU Tulsa. Either that or TCC needs to convince me that they are struggling, have done everything they can to max out what they have, show me that there is not an ounce of space or time left in the classrooms, that they have come up with creative solutions, money saving efforts, etc.
Dont just tell me it would be great to have this because of this or that benefit... sure any extra money could be of benefit, would benefit me too... do that, but also convince me that you NEED and deserve it. And if people are convinced and vote for it they shouldn't be called "Tax Vampires".
See the 1 23/30ths percent Sales Tax deal on the Council Agenda.
Thanks to the 12,000 voters out there who made a difference today. The others should be ashamed.
I think it's safe to suggest that at least 75% of the 9,000 YES voters had some vested interest in a win here.
Okay, that failed, now let's go do the river.
I don't know of anyone who voted yes in my personal cabal.
All kidding aside, I don't think any new tax measures, including a street measure is going to meet with success until gas goes back down. I don't have a number in mind it needs to retreat under and it's not scientific. I just don't see how the average citizen is going to justify more money vaporizing from their pocket when the price of everything has gone up so much in the last year.
FWIW, I do believe that V-2025, for the most part, is what a community improvement tax should be all about. We have gotten many new facilities in Tulsa we would not have otherwise. It's been good to the construction trades and every Tulsa County community has benefitted from it.
Quote from this morning's World: It's "a crying shame" that "many residents didn't turn out to vote"?!?!
That was very specifically the intent of the Tulsa Metro Chamber, their PR firm, and the daily newspaper -- to hold the election with very little notice and public education, on an election date with nothing elese on the ballot, when voter turnout would be certain to be extremely low.
It's this kind of cynicism by the self-proclaimed 'shadow' government that turns off the voters who do turn out.
I enjoy that the economy is too blame. Because this is the only time the economy has been bad. It's time for politicians to realize we actually read ballots and vote based on the individual items on it. We don't just go to the polls and go "Mmm.. TCC Goood.." or "Nooo... Taxes Baad"
Take the owasso campus off, add a downtown parking garage, maybe throw in a campus-campus shuttle service so you don't have to have every class at every campus. Then you won't need that much expansion. That's the kinda stuff we want.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
I enjoy that the economy is too blame. Because this is the only time the economy has been bad. It's time for politicians to realize we actually read ballots and vote based on the individual items on it. We don't just go to the polls and go "Mmm.. TCC Goood.." or "Nooo... Taxes Baad"
Take the owasso campus off, add a downtown parking garage, maybe throw in a campus-campus shuttle service so you don't have to have every class at every campus. Then you won't need that much expansion. That's the kinda stuff we want.
The leadership at TCC, or any other local government entity, does want to use their brains and work SMART, with agility, with adaptiveness, with innovation, and with ECONOMY.
They prefer to agitate for more and more spending to justify the extraction of more and more taxes.
That's their basic strategy, and they managed to mostly coast to the level of taxation they've achieved so far, utilizing their favors trading network of TCC, TTC, TDA, TPS, TPD, TFD, and TMUA to raise taxes a bit here, and a bit there, but ALWAYS upwards.
Grinding us down year end and year out.
Things may be changing.
The Kaiser River Tax was very heavily promoted, with the Tax Vampires raising and spending well over $1 million to promote it. Plus the ancillary benefit from all the local TV stations and the daily print media at the Lorton's World enthusiastically endorsing a plan to move sand around in a Prairie River.
I wouldn't be surprised when we see the final Contributions and Expenditures Report for the Citizens for TCC tax promotion PAC that they spent over $300K in promoting this new tax.
Wonder if Mr. Maxwell at Flintco is having a good day today?
[}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by Kiah
Quote from this morning's World: It's "a crying shame" that "many residents didn't turn out to vote"?!?!
That was very specifically the intent of the Tulsa Metro Chamber, their PR firm, and the daily newspaper -- to hold the election with very little notice and public education, on an election date with nothing elese on the ballot, when voter turnout would be certain to be extremely low.
It's this kind of cynicism by the self-proclaimed 'shadow' government that turns off the voters who do turn out.
The silo'd One Issue election is the patented strategy of the Tax Vampires.
The historical election results for tax issues tell them that they receive an advantage in Silo'd elections where there is only one issue on the ballot.
Why?
Because their Favors-Trading Network is ORGANIZED to get the vote YES partisans to the polls to vote. There is seldom any organized Vote NO organization to any tax increase. Why?
Because the Vote NO personnel are unpaid volunteers. The Vote YES to higher taxes Vampires are already on the payroll of one of these entities, or of one of their favored construction company cronies and their bevy of Favors-Trading allies.
That's why there are Soooooooo many elections in Oklahoma....to favor the Tax Vampires.
This election could have been held in April and saved the tax payers the cost of a separate election.
Or, it could have been held in July when the Federal and State Primary elections are going to be held.
But, Nooooooooooooooooooo, the Tax Vampires simply MUST have their very own Silo'd one-issue tax election.
[B)]
quote:
Originally posted by Kiah
Quote from this morning's World: It's "a crying shame" that "many residents didn't turn out to vote"?!?!
That was very specifically the intent of the Tulsa Metro Chamber, their PR firm, and the daily newspaper -- to hold the election with very little notice and public education, on an election date with nothing elese on the ballot, when voter turnout would be certain to be extremely low.
It's this kind of cynicism by the self-proclaimed 'shadow' government that turns off the voters who do turn out.
Mayor Chatty Kathy Taylor, who has backed EVERY proposed City OR County tax increase since she become the Mayor of Tulsa, was indirectly quoted by the
Lorton's World as saying "she is sad that Tulsans don't appear ready to invest in education".
How arrogant!
And, how misleading, too!
Tulsa County residents collectively are taxed (i.e. "Invest") $100,000,000's if not $Billions in their taxes for Higher and Common Education, including TCC and TTC.
Approximately 60% of the State expenditures flow into local schools, colleges and universities, extracted primarily from the State Sales Tax of 4.5% on EVERY dollar spent for a good (except newspapers, of course).
Our property taxes generously fund TCC and TTC, too, as well as local school districts.
Again, we experience of the Tulsa PREMIUM with TTC the HIGHEST average cost per student vocational district in the state, and TCC as the LOWEST state-funded Community College in the State.
Mayor Chatty Kathy needs a serious Reality dose.
[8D]
I for one am sick of gettin 10 and 20 dollared to death....
quote:
Originally posted by Breadburner
I for one am sick of gettin 10 and 20 dollared to death....
It's not $10 or $20 a month here and there for taxes, it is the COLLECTIVE annual amount extracted, year-in and year-out that drains your disposable income.
Remember, there has been NO growth in real hourly wages since 1979.
1979!
The only way that families have maintained their standards of income is by BOTH parents working full-time.
Not exactly the
Ozzie and Harriet ,
Leave it to Beaver,
I Love Lucy, or
Father Knows Best family paradigm, is it?
[:O]
You know Bear...if you left the big city and returned to the woods, your taxes would probably go down.
Just saying...
Don't feed the bears. Vote over. Thread over.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
It's not $10 or $20 a month here and there for taxes, it is the COLLECTIVE annual amount extracted, year-in and year-out that drains your disposable income.
That was his point, the 10-20 adding up.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
It's not $10 or $20 a month here and there for taxes, it is the COLLECTIVE annual amount extracted, year-in and year-out that drains your disposable income.
That was his point, the 10-20 adding up.
Sorry.
Left my Acme Mind-Reading Helmet at home today.
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
Don't feed the bears. Vote over. Thread over.
Ah, come-on.
Let us do a Touchdown Demonstration in the end-zone just for Today. I'll only spike the ball this one time.
Promise.
Besides, the fact that we all pretty much agreed on something is cause enough for a celebration.
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
Besides, the fact that we all pretty much agreed on something is cause enough for a celebration.
End-Zone Party, End-Zone Party, End-Zone Party!!!
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
Now, I wasnt for this particular tax. But I am not against all taxes or for all tax cuts. To just paint all taxes as bad period or to paint someone who may be for a tax as "Tax Vampires" seems a bit extreme and I do not agree with that sentiment.
Just because I was against this tax does not mean I am against all taxes or against possible taxes for college education. I just never heard a convincing argument for it in this case. I think we need to grow our colleges but at this point would prefer it be for OSU Tulsa. Either that or TCC needs to convince me that they are struggling, have done everything they can to max out what they have, show me that there is not an ounce of space or time left in the classrooms, that they have come up with creative solutions, money saving efforts, etc.
Dont just tell me it would be great to have this because of this or that benefit... sure any extra money could be of benefit, would benefit me too... do that, but also convince me that you NEED and deserve it. And if people are convinced and vote for it they shouldn't be called "Tax Vampires".
I generally reserve the term "Tax Vampires" for the PROMOTERS of taxes.
Generally, Tax Vampires refers to political Pimps & Prostitures fronting for the local connected construction cabal, with their associated small coven of connected sub-contractors, bond underwriters, accountants, attorneys, architects and engineers.
Someone who merely falls for the emotional appeal of their tax promotion slogans like:
"It's for the Children", or
"It's all about jobs", I would refer to as a:
DUPE.[:D]
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
Besides, the fact that we all pretty much agreed on something is cause enough for a celebration.
End-Zone Party, End-Zone Party, End-Zone Party!!!
Party this weekend downtown. Y'all can come. 5th & Main. Cash bar.
so who thinks this will change TCC's attitude toward the public, downtown, et al? I for one don't think there will be any change...just another attempt at this in a few years....sounding even more desparate.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
so who thinks this will change TCC's attitude toward the public, downtown, et al? I for one don't think there will be any change...just another attempt at this in a few years....sounding even more desparate.
Today's World article quotes the TCC pres as blaming it all on a poor economy and gasoline costs. Even though Tulsa's economy shows no real trauma as of yet. No, there will be no change in attitude, its allways some one or something else at fault.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
so who thinks this will change TCC's attitude toward the public, downtown, et al? I for one don't think there will be any change...just another attempt at this in a few years....sounding even more desparate.
It's never "Final" with the Tax Vampires.
If they are defeated in one election, they merely bide their time while memories fade of why their tax ploy was defeated, re-group and re-package their tax, find a new message and a new messenger, collect funds from their fellow connected cronies, and come at our throats again even harder.
Again, and again.
Witness Vision 2025: It was only on their THIRD attempt to get an Arena downtown that voters were finally gulled into passing funds for a new Arena Downtown. Built by:
Flintco and RooneyCo. Surprise!
Remember their clever message:
"It's All About Jobs".
The jobs were coming from Boeing, but Boeing was never COMING.
But, the ploy worked to Gull the voters into voting a $1 Billion tax increase.
The Puppet Masters behind their pimping politician mouthpieces are local Oligarch Families, that have been ruling Oklahoma for a long time, and neatly have this tax vampirism inbedded in their genes.
Hypothetically, of course, FLINTCO is a 100 years old family bizness.
Approximately 1/2 of their business is building stuff for Goobermint entities.
One-half.
Be well assured that they true and verily know how to game The System. To the Max.
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Witness Vision 2025: It was only on their THIRD attempt to get an Arena downtown that voters were finally gulled into passing funds for a new Arena Downtown.
Strange, the arena was one of the prime reasons I voted for it. If I only had a brain...
Yes, I liked the arena too.
If they were to ask for some money to expand OSU Tulsa, then I would go for that. It wasnt that I was "broke" or that I "didnt want to spend money on education"... This just wasnt the particular college priority I saw at the moment. Nor was it shown to me that this was the best expansion of programs at TCC. Would rather them have a major engineering program than a fire and emergency responder program, for instance.
Wish they would ask some of the taxpayers what their thoughts and priorities for the future of TCC should be. We are the ones that would be paying for it. The medical stuff would be good, but they didnt make a convincing argument for why it was important to do so, how specifically the money would be spent, shown that they had used up every available other option, and why it couldnt be done otherwise. They simply didnt convince me. Not gonna hand people money otherwise.
Sad that they didnt do more to promote it, unless it couldnt hold up to scrutiny and thats why. Would like to have gone to some public forums and discussions for instance. I dont remember any at all? Also would have like to have heard about, or been a part of the public input process and why they came to the conclusions that this was money well spent and needed. Don't remember any of that going on either? Did I somehow miss it?
Throughout history taxation has brought to end each fledging society. Even among our past leaders the right to tax is the right to destroy. The societies have hired a street sweeper, then a lamp lighter and a person to pick up the trash. As their needs increase (its all for the people) the cute little kitten has grown into a lion where it demands they need more help by employing more people. It has all started with only costing a few pennies but grows into hundreds of dollars. Due to the society produce no articles for sale but depend on each to contribute to the ever demanding collecting the money from the citizens in some form of taxes.
As the society grows so grows the apathy of the citizen to participate as the hidden demands grow greater for taxes, which some are voted on and some are passed on a fee's without a vote. We are in the phase where the majority is manipulated by withholding information or making it very difficult to vote. Most votes are passed by the minority of registered voters. Once again the intent of government of the people vanishes and through out history this has lead to rebellion. Not withstanding half of the world is in rebellion today.
It should not be necessary for each high school have a multi-million-dollar football stadium that sits vacant most of the time when our test scores in elaborate designed schools are in question
Whether the results of the last hidden election was foretelling the future elections or a wakeup call remains to be seen.
As it has been said "you cannot tax a society into prosperity"
quote:
Originally posted by shadows
Throughout history taxation has brought to end each fledging society. Even among our past leaders the right to tax is the right to destroy. The societies have hired a street sweeper, then a lamp lighter and a person to pick up the trash. As their needs increase (its all for the people) the cute little kitten has grown into a lion where it demands they need more help by employing more people. It has all started with only costing a few pennies but grows into hundreds of dollars. Due to the society produce no articles for sale but depend on each to contribute to the ever demanding collecting the money from the citizens in some form of taxes.
As the society grows so grows the apathy of the citizen to participate as the hidden demands grow greater for taxes, which some are voted on and some are passed on a fee's without a vote. We are in the phase where the majority is manipulated by withholding information or making it very difficult to vote. Most votes are passed by the minority of registered voters. Once again the intent of government of the people vanishes and through out history this has lead to rebellion. Not withstanding half of the world is in rebellion today.
It should not be necessary for each high school have a multi-million-dollar football stadium that sits vacant most of the time when our test scores in elaborate designed schools are in question
Whether the results of the last hidden election was foretelling the future elections or a wakeup call remains to be seen.
As it has been said "you cannot tax a society into prosperity"
Lucky for us we live in a state with the lowest tax burden. Its helped to make our state the glorious utopia it is today, a shining example of prosperity, health, and wisdom to the rest of the nation.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
quote:
Originally posted by shadows
Throughout history taxation has brought to end each fledging society. Even among our past leaders the right to tax is the right to destroy. The societies have hired a street sweeper, then a lamp lighter and a person to pick up the trash. As their needs increase (its all for the people) the cute little kitten has grown into a lion where it demands they need more help by employing more people. It has all started with only costing a few pennies but grows into hundreds of dollars. Due to the society produce no articles for sale but depend on each to contribute to the ever demanding collecting the money from the citizens in some form of taxes.
As the society grows so grows the apathy of the citizen to participate as the hidden demands grow greater for taxes, which some are voted on and some are passed on a fee's without a vote. We are in the phase where the majority is manipulated by withholding information or making it very difficult to vote. Most votes are passed by the minority of registered voters. Once again the intent of government of the people vanishes and through out history this has lead to rebellion. Not withstanding half of the world is in rebellion today.
It should not be necessary for each high school have a multi-million-dollar football stadium that sits vacant most of the time when our test scores in elaborate designed schools are in question
Whether the results of the last hidden election was foretelling the future elections or a wakeup call remains to be seen.
As it has been said "you cannot tax a society into prosperity"
Lucky for us we live in a state with the lowest tax burden. Its helped to make our state the glorious utopia it is today, a shining example of prosperity, health, and wisdom to the rest of the nation.
Are you talking about OKLAHOMA?
What superlatives?
Most Turnpikes.
Highest Female Incarceration Rate in U.S.
Third Highest Male Incarceration Rate in U.S.
Highest growth rate of MINIMUM wage jobs.
Highest incidence of Hepatitis A.
#1 in Administrative Bloat due to 4th in U.S. in NUMBER of School Districts
43rd in Per Capita Income.
Time for a Reality Check.
[:I]
Could be time for FB to get a refresher course on sarcasm. We have one of the lowest tax rates and it has yielded the superlatives you outlined. That's what I took from the post.
We also have one of the lowest per capita incomes. It only makes sense that we would have a lower tax burden. You can't squeeze blood from a turnip.
Maybe it's not "rebellion" but "common-sense" Artist
quote:
Originally posted by wavoka
We also have one of the lowest per capita incomes. It only makes sense that we would have a lower tax burden. You can't squeeze blood from a turnip.
But they keep telling us that by having lower taxes everyone will be richer? They also keep telling us that businesses and people will flock to the state that the economy will boom. We should have the highest per capita income. If low taxes are so desirable, why arent more people moving here?
I cant see that if your poorer that your trying to "squeeze blood from a turnip". Poor people spend less, buy less and buy less expensive items, thus little of their income goes to taxes. Any difference incurred by adding or subtracting a percentage of the small amount that they already spend in taxes would even be all the more miniscule. Yet a middle or upper income person who purchases a hundred times more would pay significantly more to help with basic infrastructure, education, law enforcement, etc. A poor person buying a 5 dollar shirt pays about 45 cents in taxes, and a middle class person buying a 50 dollar shirt will pay about 4.50$. What the heck ya gonna do with an extra percentage of 45 cents? For we wouldnt be talking about that total amount, any change would be a percentage of that.
I had my years of eating Ramen Noodles, struggling, worrying that if I got a flat tire I wouldnt be able to make the rent and would lose my apartment. I actually had my car reposessed then got thrown out of a 1 bedroom efficiency because I was late one month too often lol. I spent so little that what tiny, miniscule amount of taxes I was paying was the least of my worries. And then to squabble about a percentage of even that small amount... I had more important things to worry about, like getting my self in a position where I was making more money. (Thank goodness for TCC and its cheap tax supported education! all the money I would have saved had that tax not been there would not have made up for the amount I would have to have paid to go to another college. This tax, which I agree wasnt a good one, would have amounted to less than the cost of a book at TCC for the average poor person. But by having TCC be as cheap and available as it was, I was able to get an education and get a better job and then NOT have to worry about pinching pennies anymore.) Plus I would very much like to know that I lived in a city that was thriving and growing, that had wealthy people and great jobs so that I also could hope to someday get a piece of the action. If your going to do whatever it takes to bust your butt and get up to the next level where you wont have to worry about a few dollars, then you want a city that has good infrastructure, schools, is attractive and growing, etc. Otherwise your still in the same situation, whether its a low tax state or a high tax state.
If the people in this state have some of the lowest per capita incomes, then that means they will be paying less in taxes, yet trying to support the same kind of infrastructure as other wealthier cities and states do with higher incomes and higher taxes. A double whammy for basic needs. And we arent talking about the state, we are talking about Tulsa, the place that we have already argued has a very good level of income compared to other places, AND a lower cost of living which people have argued is very much a plus for poor people here.
Those may not be the best examples. But suffice it to say, I think that too little taxes can be just as bad as too much. What the taxes are used for and how well they are used is very important. People seem to want to frame the discussion in diametric terms, yes/no, for/against,,,, or even more extreme, all taxes bad period, there are no good taxes. If we didnt have any taxes everthing would be nirvana.
The arguments by people on here are not, "Is this tax a good tax or a bad tax." or even, what could be an acceptible level in a certain situation. Its "Taxes bad, period." There is no "Why", this tax is bad, because all taxes are bad. There doesnt need to be any reason why or discussion about it. There can be no discussion, compromise, learning, difference of opinion,,,,no way to make anything better,,, Its just NO tax period.
Its "They are after our money again!" Its not "This particular tax is not good because... "
We have one of the lowest over all tax burdens of any state. We supposedly have good wages compared to other cities. We have an extremely low cost of living on top of both of those. Surely there is some wiggle room to do some extra things which would improve our city even further. We have plenty of negatives that havent been improving and could use a bit more attention as well. No need to raise taxes just to be raising taxes of course. But if there is a way to make things better...some sort of investment for the future of the city and its people that is prudent, shown to work, fills a need, is frugally spent, that we have tried to achieve in other ways, etc. Why not go for it?
I personally used tax supported programs to pull myself up into a better place in the world, the US Army and the GI Bill, and TCC. The tiny amount I was paying in taxes wasnt even coming close, not by a loooong shot, to what I got from those things.
I have a hard time with taxes, fees and other costs that are hidden.
When the federal government takes half my paycheck, the state takes it's cut, and them I am forced to pay 9% on everything I buy, it seems as though I am getting taxed to death.
Add into that the hidden taxes associated with gasoline, my electric/water/gas bills, my cable bills, my cellphone bills and the whole thing starts to really stink.
Wait, assume you feel like leaving Tulsa on any major highway? Nope, not without paying tolls (taxes.) Taxes are getting so ridiculous to the restaurant business that they are no longer including the alcohol tax in the cost of a drink. Suddenly that $2.50 beer they were advertising is now $2.97 because they decided to pass on some more taxes that were formerly hidden.
It isn't that I don't want to support my local community. I just want to be able to spend a little of my own money on myself. Apparently my local community found it more important to build an arena, dig some holes in the river, and move its offices into "a buddy's" empty building. Maybe instead of me paying more taxes the city should learn to do what I have done... Tighten it's belt a couple of notches and learn to live within it's own means for once.
quote:
Originally posted by TeeDub
I have a hard time with taxes, fees and other costs that are hidden.
When the federal government takes half my paycheck, the state takes it's cut, and them I am forced to pay 9% on everything I buy, it seems as though I am getting taxed to death.
Add into that the hidden taxes associated with gasoline, my electric/water/gas bills, my cable bills, my cellphone bills and the whole thing starts to really stink.
Wait, assume you feel like leaving Tulsa on any major highway? Nope, not without paying tolls (taxes.) Taxes are getting so ridiculous to the restaurant business that they are no longer including the alcohol tax in the cost of a drink. Suddenly that $2.50 beer they were advertising is now $2.97 because they decided to pass on some more taxes that were formerly hidden.
It isn't that I don't want to support my local community. I just want to be able to spend a little of my own money on myself. Apparently my local community found it more important to build an arena, dig some holes in the river, and move its offices into "a buddy's" empty building. Maybe instead of me paying more taxes the city should learn to do what I have done... Tighten it's belt a couple of notches and learn to live within it's own means for once.
Here's another Maybe:
Maybe, you should understand that you are merely an EXPLOITATION Source.
Not a Citizen.
Not even really a human being.
Still feeling used? Well, you should be. Because you are.
Because a Somebody with control over the levers of power
Needs to Feed their Greed. And, you're on the Menu.
[:O]
Artist,
I agree, having gone to TCC myself using my GI Bill to do it, there were some great opportunities that I only hope I can "pay back".
I think the logic in lower taxes lies more with the purpose of the taxes than the volume. Even as a libertarian (so called, I hate labels), I made a motion to put on the ballot a sales tax here in Haskell BUT, and I called for every dime to be earmarked. After having town hall meetings many citizens called for more taxes once they saw the amount they could generate AND where it was going to go. The tax went from 1 cent to 1.35. In other words, salaries didn't go up, we didn't build a new city hall either. We used that money for Police, Fire, Civil Defense, and Parks. That's it. A small portion of the 1.35 went to the general fund for admin costs but was done so at the suggestion of the people.
Again, the point is, most people like you and I, don't mind paying their share. I think the aversion is the obvious lack of attention paid to the real needs of the community. We didn't want the new money to pay for anything but what is needed now and forever...basic infrastructure.
I beleive that socks should not have to match,to lead a good life!
quote:
Originally posted by mrhaskellok
Artist,
I agree, having gone to TCC myself using my GI Bill to do it, there were some great opportunities that I only hope I can "pay back".
I think the logic in lower taxes lies more with the purpose of the taxes than the volume. Even as a libertarian (so called, I hate labels), I made a motion to put on the ballot a sales tax here in Haskell BUT, and I called for every dime to be earmarked. After having town hall meetings many citizens called for more taxes once they saw the amount they could generate AND where it was going to go. The tax went from 1 cent to 1.35. In other words, salaries didn't go up, we didn't build a new city hall either. We used that money for Police, Fire, Civil Defense, and Parks. That's it. A small portion of the 1.35 went to the general fund for admin costs but was done so at the suggestion of the people.
Again, the point is, most people like you and I, don't mind paying their share. I think the aversion is the obvious lack of attention paid to the real needs of the community. We didn't want the new money to pay for anything but what is needed now and forever...basic infrastructure.
I fall into the "libertarian" label as well, but I am more against strong centralized government function on too-high a level. I can be somewhat liberal on a local level. Government does have a function, and it is BEST ran on as local a level as possible. So I would probably have felt the same way in a town like Haskell.
On the education theme though, I am more than willing to support pro-education proposals, even if they mean tax increases, as long as they MAKE SENSE. There are many of us that would like to see a 4 year college in Tulsa, such as OU located downtown (the things that it would do for livening up Downtown, just to start, which have been talked about on here extensively) - That would be a great idea to encourage with tax stimulus. TCC is what it is. I don't want it shut down, but why agressively expand it (and its suburban-sprawl-minded construction practices) at the expense of pushing a REAL good idea like OU Tulsa further and further from becoming a reality?