How many people have noticed a difference in gas mileage since QuikTrip started diluting their gasoline with ethanol? In the second half of last year (I'm sure there was a thread about it with the news stories) QuikTrip and Murphy USA (the gas pumps in front of Wal-mart) started using a 10% Ethanol 90% gasoline blend. As far as I can see, there is no visible labeling or signage accompanying the switchover. QuikTrip's website does have an ethanol FAQ up telling you why you love ethanol and why it is good for your family and America.
My gas mileage has gone down, which I usually just brush off as me not taking good care of my car like I should - but it has noticeably been down. I'm about to do some comparisons between QT gas and the 100% gas sold elsewhere (the station at 21st & Lewis is very vocal about it, with signs talking crap about E10, and labels on the pumps saying which choice has what blend) - to see if I really get an improvement by switching back to 100% gas.
What other places in town sell 100% gas? Is it all Phillips 66 stations, or just some?
A gallon of ethanol has only 80% of the energy by volume as a gallon of gasoline. With a 10% ethanol blend your mileage will probably go down. Plus some numbers in...
(Gas Fuel Economy * % gas) + (ethanol economy * % ethanol)
(100% * .9) + (80% * .1) = .90 + .08 = 98%.
So you lose about 2% of your fuel economy with standard 10% ethanol blend.
Feel free to correct my math (I think it's right) or fill me in on physics based energy conservation crap that I may not know. But 2% seems right to me.
If the 80% figure is true, then the math is right. You lose 20% of energy on 10% of your fuel, so you would lose 20% of 10%, or 2%, leaving 98%. :)
Real world figures, thats what I am wanting to find out. I've seen a few internet posts claiming there was a 2mpg difference between QT E10 gas and Phillips 66 100% gas. I know internet posts are not scientific, or even necessarily true - Here is a sample (the comments at the bottom) http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?articleID=071003_238_E1_hSome27283
Dropping from 17.5mpg to 15.5 mpg is around an 11% drop.
I'll do my own comparisons. What I think I'll do is a 3 tank average for each type (since my driving habits could differ on the short term, and throw the stats off for one tank).
Personally I just stopped going to QT as I don't appreciate being told one thing and sold another.... But then again, I am an a**hole.
Here are some other numbers:
Using EIA numbers, an approximate gallon of E10 gasoline should have about 118,285 Btu, 3.2 percent less than regular unleaded gasoline. How that affects fuel mileage in various model cars is disputed by proponents and opponents of ethanol production and consumers of the product.
According to the Renewable Fuels Association, the trade association for the U.S. ethanol industry, fuel injected cars may experience a decrease of approximately 2 percent in fuel economy using E10.
http://www.dailygazette.com/news/2008/feb/03/0203_Ethanol/
A. 76,000 = BTU of energy in a gallon of ethanol (E100)
B. 116,090 = BTU of energy in a gallon of gasoline
C. .655 = 2/3 = GGE of energy in a gallon of ethanol. A / B.
D. 1.53 = Gallons of ethanol with the energy of 1 gallon of gasoline. D = B / A.
quote:
Originally posted by TeeDub
Personally I just stopped going to QT as I don't appreciate being told one thing and sold another.... But then again, I am an a**hole.
Here are some other numbers:
Using EIA numbers, an approximate gallon of E10 gasoline should have about 118,285 Btu, 3.2 percent less than regular unleaded gasoline. How that affects fuel mileage in various model cars is disputed by proponents and opponents of ethanol production and consumers of the product.
According to the Renewable Fuels Association, the trade association for the U.S. ethanol industry, fuel injected cars may experience a decrease of approximately 2 percent in fuel economy using E10.
http://www.dailygazette.com/news/2008/feb/03/0203_Ethanol/
yeah, but they won't tell you what older carbuerated cars lose. And there are plenty of those still out on the road. I've had one person report a 30% drop in his old ford.
newer cars have been tuned to run on pee water gas, but a lot of cars, some within the last few years are not.
I was at 30+ mpg before Tulsa markets foisted E10 on us, now I'm down to 27-28 depending on how much I use the loud pedal.
but here is a little secret, find out when a station takes delivery. Then be the FIRST person at that station in the morning the day BEFORE they take their delivery. (this won't work with 24hr places obviously) Ethanol has a tendancy to separate (especially if there is any water in the tank) and is lighter than gas so it settles to the top of the tank. So what you get is a tank that is closer to E5 because the fuel hasn't been agitated yet. You don't want to get gas the day of delivery though, because that'll contain high ethanol content, something approaching E15-E20.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
A. 76,000 = BTU of energy in a gallon of ethanol (E100)
B. 116,090 = BTU of energy in a gallon of gasoline
C. .655 = 2/3 = GGE of energy in a gallon of ethanol. A / B.
D. 1.53 = Gallons of ethanol with the energy of 1 gallon of gasoline. D = B / A.
I'm no physicist. I've seen it spun that ethanol "burns cooler" (to explain the BTU) - But doesn't heat = energy? Combustion engines, do they not require HEAT to operate? If you go purely by BTU, wouldn't that mean Ethanol contains 35% LESS energy for all intents and purposes?
By the 35% theory tho, you're still losing less than 1mpg at 25mpg starting point with a 90/10 blend.
edit - forgot an important "LESS"
quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
A. 76,000 = BTU of energy in a gallon of ethanol (E100)
B. 116,090 = BTU of energy in a gallon of gasoline
C. .655 = 2/3 = GGE of energy in a gallon of ethanol. A / B.
D. 1.53 = Gallons of ethanol with the energy of 1 gallon of gasoline. D = B / A.
I'm no physicist. I've seen it spun that ethanol "burns cooler" (to explain the BTU) - But doesn't heat = energy? Combustion engines, do they not require HEAT to operate? If you go purely by BTU, wouldn't that mean Ethanol contains 35% LESS energy for all intents and purposes?
By the 35% theory tho, you're still losing less than 1mpg at 25mpg starting point with a 90/10 blend.
edit - forgot an important "LESS"
well, that is all in theory with all conditions being perfect....that is in a BEST case scenario. What you get in the real world is hardly close to that, due to loss of energy at other points. Those numbers are for a lab environment where the burn is controlled, not mimicking the varying degrees of spark that a car provides.
You certainly can't do BETTER though.
required reading:
http://zfacts.com/p/436.html
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
A. 76,000 = BTU of energy in a gallon of ethanol (E100)
B. 116,090 = BTU of energy in a gallon of gasoline
C. .655 = 2/3 = GGE of energy in a gallon of ethanol. A / B.
D. 1.53 = Gallons of ethanol with the energy of 1 gallon of gasoline. D = B / A.
I'm no physicist. I've seen it spun that ethanol "burns cooler" (to explain the BTU) - But doesn't heat = energy? Combustion engines, do they not require HEAT to operate? If you go purely by BTU, wouldn't that mean Ethanol contains 35% LESS energy for all intents and purposes?
By the 35% theory tho, you're still losing less than 1mpg at 25mpg starting point with a 90/10 blend.
edit - forgot an important "LESS"
well, that is all in theory with all conditions being perfect....that is in a BEST case scenario. What you get in the real world is hardly close to that, due to loss of energy at other points. Those numbers are for a lab environment where the burn is controlled, not mimicking the varying degrees of spark that a car provides.
You certainly can't do BETTER though.
Some of the real world claims I have seen people make equate to the 10% virtually being nonexistant, a total loss in mileage. When they are selling supposedly 90% gas, it starts to really puzzle me when people are claiming to see losses of OVER 10% (the claims from the TW forum are 11% losses). I know they can't just put water in the gas, because that would actually disrupt the engine and performance - but it is almost like they've found a filler that causes no discernable difference in operation, yet allows them to sell a "gallon" of gas that is diluted down, only containing 90% or less of actual fuel.
From that zfacts site:
quote:
How much should you pay for E10 and E85?
If regular gas is $3.00/gallon you should pay
$2.90 / gallon for E10 (10% ethanol).
$2.13 / gallon for E85 (85% ethanol).
If regular gas is $2.00/gallon you should pay
$1.93 / gallon for E10 (10% ethanol).
$1.42 / gallon for E85 (85% ethanol).
Shouldn't that read: "If regular gas is $3.00/gallon, meat, dairy, grain, and all other food commodity prices remain the same, and the tax burden remains the same instead of increasing with subsidies, you should pay..."
quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan
From that zfacts site:
quote:
How much should you pay for E10 and E85?
If regular gas is $3.00/gallon you should pay
$2.90 / gallon for E10 (10% ethanol).
$2.13 / gallon for E85 (85% ethanol).
If regular gas is $2.00/gallon you should pay
$1.93 / gallon for E10 (10% ethanol).
$1.42 / gallon for E85 (85% ethanol).
Shouldn't that read: "If regular gas is $3.00/gallon, meat, dairy, grain, and all other food commodity prices remain the same, and the tax burden remains the same instead of increasing with subsidies, you should pay..."
yes again, this is just looking at it from a sterile lab standpoint. Of course all the other factors come into play too.
I've noticed I'm getting about 25 miles less a tank than what I used to. Not sure if it's the age of my truck or the ethanol. QT seems to be the only 87 octane which does not ping in my engine, so I stick with it when around town.
Personally, my favorite car was the one in the avatar, about two miles per gallon of pure methanol. But what a rush! A great use of dead trees. [8D]
I used QT gasoline almost exclusively for years. Within the last few months, I noticed that the mileage on my 18-year-old Toyota dropped from about 28 MPG around town to around 22 MPG. I wondered if it might be a mechanical problem, but when I heard that ethanol could affect mileage, I filled up at the 31st & Yale Phillips. I won't know for sure until my next fill-up, but so far my mileage appears to be back where it used to be.
quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
A. 76,000 = BTU of energy in a gallon of ethanol (E100)
B. 116,090 = BTU of energy in a gallon of gasoline
C. .655 = 2/3 = GGE of energy in a gallon of ethanol. A / B.
D. 1.53 = Gallons of ethanol with the energy of 1 gallon of gasoline. D = B / A.
I'm no physicist. I've seen it spun that ethanol "burns cooler" (to explain the BTU) - But doesn't heat = energy? Combustion engines, do they not require HEAT to operate? If you go purely by BTU, wouldn't that mean Ethanol contains 35% LESS energy for all intents and purposes?
By the 35% theory tho, you're still losing less than 1mpg at 25mpg starting point with a 90/10 blend.
edit - forgot an important "LESS"
Actually, while heat plays a factor with internal combustion, it's not the key factor. Compression plays a much bigger part in energy transfer. Still, the less energy stored in a fuel, the less your going to be able to release.
I've never really thought of the energy loss in ethonal blended gas, but since I drive an SUV that sips a mear 15 miles out of the gallon, I think I just might try running some pure gasoline. Now if I can just find some handy from a place I feel I can trust (the little mart down the road boasts 100% gas, but they just don't inspire confidence in me)
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelBates
I used QT gasoline almost exclusively for years. Within the last few months, I noticed that the mileage on my 18-year-old Toyota dropped from about 28 MPG around town to around 22 MPG. I wondered if it might be a mechanical problem, but when I heard that ethanol could affect mileage, I filled up at the 31st & Yale Phillips. I won't know for sure until my next fill-up, but so far my mileage appears to be back where it used to be.
My car has only 13,000 miles and I saw a similar decrease after using E10 from QT. Since switching to Phillips and/or the station at 33rd & W Skelly (can't remember the name), my mileage is back up to 26 or so. A new cold air intake should help the mileage even more, but that has nothing to do with fuel...it will just help it breath better and sound cool. [8D]
Yeah, my plan is to test the difference right after getting new tires, fresh oil change, filters, alignment, etc (test BOTH types after obviously, since my mileage could go up as a result of maintainance)
I still don't understand all of these stories about people getting MORE than a 10% loss in mileage from the stuff. Like something is happening that makes the ethanol counterproductive, or we are getting less than 90% actual gasoline, and more "blend" (which may or may not be all ethanol).
quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan
Yeah, my plan is to test the difference right after getting new tires, fresh oil change, filters, alignment, etc (test BOTH types after obviously, since my mileage could go up as a result of maintainance)
I still don't understand all of these stories about people getting MORE than a 10% loss in mileage from the stuff. Like something is happening that makes the ethanol counterproductive, or we are getting less than 90% actual gasoline, and more "blend" (which may or may not be all ethanol).
change your spark plugs. new tires won't matter unless they are improperly inflated. Your car needs to be making the best spark possible to burn the pee water as best it can.
I drive an '88 Ford Bronco II. I've not noticed any difference and still getting between 13-14 MPG.
Long lecture from mechanic. Do not buy gas from QT. The ethanol attracts crud and water and will damage your engine. There is no law which requires the gas stations to post that they are not using 100% gas. The Texaco at 21 and Lewis sells 100%. Others do as well - ask first! And yes, it is a fact that with an ethanol product you will get between 25-30% less performance (less miles per gal). Plus - ethanol doesn't mix well so instead of a 90-10 (gas 90, ethanol 10) you could end of with a 80-20 mix further reducing not only miles, but your wallet.
Do they both evaporate at the same rate? Maybe the ethanol seeps out of the system easier, particularly in older cars where fittings and fuel lines may have deteriorated.
just an FYI, I'm seeing a lot of stations in BA advertise non ethanol gas. They charge .05 more, but I think they are just taking advantage of the fact it isn't E10.
quote:
Originally posted by LongtimeTulsan
Long lecture from mechanic. Do not buy gas from QT. The ethanol attracts crud and water and will damage your engine. . .
Plus - ethanol doesn't mix well so instead of a 90-10 (gas 90, ethanol 10) you could end of with a 80-20 mix further reducing not only miles, but your wallet.
Ethanol chemically bonds with water. That is very true. As far as I know there is no reason for it to bond to crud, but it's molecular structure crazes H20 to balance itself (being by its nature volatile and thus desirable to burn) But the water is bad enough. And I haven't heard that it mixes poorly, but I guess it would make sense.
Some mechanics flat out hate ethanol, I'm starting to think it is more warranted than I thought.
I remember years ago, driving through Iowa, I noticed that they had ethanol blended gasoline as a 4th option at all the pumps. It was a bit cheaper than regular unleaded. I'm assuming that QT doesn't sell this gas any cheaper than the regular unleaded rate. So aren't they just watering down their product and taking a higher profit margin?
If we're going to be diluting the gas in Oklahoma, shouldn't there be a cost savings?
How about topping my tank off with a shot of Oklahoma wheat gas?
I haven't used the ethanol gas enough to notice any mileage difference. I find my local QT to be too busy and a pain to get in and out of, so I typically run up the street and swipe my card at a pair of service station pumps that are rarely occupied.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
quote:
Originally posted by LongtimeTulsan
Long lecture from mechanic. Do not buy gas from QT. The ethanol attracts crud and water and will damage your engine. . .
Plus - ethanol doesn't mix well so instead of a 90-10 (gas 90, ethanol 10) you could end of with a 80-20 mix further reducing not only miles, but your wallet.
Ethanol chemically bonds with water. That is very true. As far as I know there is no reason for it to bond to crud, but it's molecular structure crazes H20 to balance itself (being by its nature volatile and thus desirable to burn) But the water is bad enough. And I haven't heard that it mixes poorly, but I guess it would make sense.
Some mechanics flat out hate ethanol, I'm starting to think it is more warranted than I thought.
I've noticed crappy mileage with QT as well lately, as does Mr. K (Olds Alero & Grand Cherokee)
Phillips seems to be good stuff lately.
Iowa has subsidized E10 for a long time (at least 15 years) that I can recall for sure). Gas stations are "strongly encouraged" to sell it at a discount as it is subsidized by the State. generally a 3-5 cent discount and about 89 Octane.
I see, but with the high price of gas, can't we assume that the ethanol serves as just a cheap filler? I'm guessing ethanol is not so inefficient that it still needs a subsidy to be viable. I don't see QT boasting that they are working to curb dependency on foreign oil with the ethanol mixture, likely to avoid the controversy of whether or not it sucks for your car.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Iowa has subsidized E10 for a long time (at least 15 years) that I can recall for sure). Gas stations are "strongly encouraged" to sell it at a discount as it is subsidized by the State. generally a 3-5 cent discount and about 89 Octane.
Finally needed to fill up (with the gas prices, I drive as little as possible and try to make my gas go as far as possible), so I pulled into the local station that advertises "pure gas!!! no ethonal!!!" Look at the pump, and there are two 87 octanes. One has a paper sign on it that says "advertised price". Under this sign, it says "10% ethonal". The other one is marked as no ethonal, and priced several cents above the "advertised" price. Which puts it several cents above the price of gas at every other station. So, gain in economy, lose in the wallet.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
quote:
Originally posted by LongtimeTulsan
Long lecture from mechanic. Do not buy gas from QT. The ethanol attracts crud and water and will damage your engine. . .
Plus - ethanol doesn't mix well so instead of a 90-10 (gas 90, ethanol 10) you could end of with a 80-20 mix further reducing not only miles, but your wallet.
Ethanol chemically bonds with water. That is very true. As far as I know there is no reason for it to bond to crud, but it's molecular structure crazes H20 to balance itself (being by its nature volatile and thus desirable to burn) But the water is bad enough. And I haven't heard that it mixes poorly, but I guess it would make sense.
Some mechanics flat out hate ethanol, I'm starting to think it is more warranted than I thought.
Regarding the blend - they have to go to two different terminals - one for the gas and one for the ethanol - so it is not blended at the rack - therefore no consistency in blend.
Ditto - switched to 100% gas and problems with car have gone away - Had to use a name brand station - went to three different quickie places and all had that E10.
ASK Before you buy!
which station? my part of the world is taken over by QT so I have to go a long ways to get real gas.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
which station? my part of the world is taken over by QT so I have to go a long ways to get real gas.
There is a sinclair at 81st and 169, that isn't that far.
While your out getting "real gas" you're also supporting foreign oil you dumb$#@! Stop whining about 10% Ethanol and support your local farmers. I bet you drive an Expedition with a "Support Our Troops" yellow ribbon sticker too.
Yeah that corn stuff added to our fuel is the worst of the worst. Not only does gas milage drop, and the engine has less power since ethanol has less power it's bad for the fuel injectors and fuel pumps too, plus it drives up the cost of food and corn. We are using food for fuel Very bad idea.[xx(]
I want the price of corn to go up. Corn has been too overly subsidized and is a big contributor to US obesity. Cheap corn is the reason pop has corn syrup instead of sugar in it. Sugar is more easily digested and less likely to turn to fat. I've heard before that only 1 item at mcdonalds doesn't include corn in it.
Egg McMuffin? Corn
McFlurry? Corn
Big Mac? Corn
Fries? Corn
Corn Syrup, Corn Oil, and Corn Meal are in almost everything we eat and it's all bad for us.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
which station? my part of the world is taken over by QT so I have to go a long ways to get real gas.
There is a sinclair at 81st and 169, that isn't that far.
they have not been vouched as using real gas. until they advertise it like some other stations in BA do, it cannot be confirmed they don't slip in E10.
and for those on the foreign oil high horse, get over yourselves. getting real gas does not mean more oil goes into it, it just means the ethanol filler isn't being used as an oxygenate.
It's bad when you think of the price we are paying for fuel and with ethanol we get less fuel milage and poor engine power for the same price. Ethanol cannot make it in the free market place- so it requires gov't subsidys to survive. No use looking for stations that sell pure gasoline sooner or latter all stations will have ethanol blends. It makes no sense when fuel mileage drops. Gas stations here in Ohio that at one time sold pure gasoline now have pump stickes that say it's blended with ethanol. Many store clerks have no idea what is in their gasoline I have asked that already.
Can we make a running list of real gas locations?
quote:
Originally posted by izmophonik
While your out getting "real gas" you're also supporting foreign oil you dumb$#@! Stop whining about 10% Ethanol and support your local farmers. I bet you drive an Expedition with a "Support Our Troops" yellow ribbon sticker too.
Supporting farmers? Perhaps, but it feels like we're supporting pork barrel initiatives for midwestern congressmen. More energy is used to produce ethanol than is derived from its use. Hybrid cars are a better option- better fuel efficiency reduces the quantity of oil we demand from the Middle East. Furthermore, oil reserves in Alaska and Siberia have the potential to outpace Middle East production.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
I've heard before that only 1 item at mcdonalds doesn't include corn in it.
Egg McMuffin? Corn
McFlurry? Corn
Big Mac? Corn
Fries? Corn
I need the answer. I can't sleep until I know.
Is it the Cherry Pie? The Salad? The Happy Meal Toy?
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
I've heard before that only 1 item at mcdonalds doesn't include corn in it.
Egg McMuffin? Corn
McFlurry? Corn
Big Mac? Corn
Fries? Corn
I need the answer. I can't sleep until I know.
Is it the Cherry Pie? The Salad? The Happy Meal Toy?
don't question it, just keep eating it and maintain your figure.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
which station? my part of the world is taken over by QT so I have to go a long ways to get real gas.
There is a sinclair at 81st and 169, that isn't that far.
they have not been vouched as using real gas. until they advertise it like some other stations in BA do, it cannot be confirmed they don't slip in E10.
and for those on the foreign oil high horse, get over yourselves. getting real gas does not mean more oil goes into it, it just means the ethanol filler isn't being used as an oxygenate.
I never said more oil goes into "real gas" vs. the blend. However, if you are substituting 10% of your final product with ethanol you are obviously reducing your consumption of oil...big difference.
quote:
Originally posted by izmophonik
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
which station? my part of the world is taken over by QT so I have to go a long ways to get real gas.
There is a sinclair at 81st and 169, that isn't that far.
they have not been vouched as using real gas. until they advertise it like some other stations in BA do, it cannot be confirmed they don't slip in E10.
and for those on the foreign oil high horse, get over yourselves. getting real gas does not mean more oil goes into it, it just means the ethanol filler isn't being used as an oxygenate.
I never said more oil goes into "real gas" vs. the blend. However, if you are substituting 10% of your final product with ethanol you are obviously reducing your consumption of oil...big difference.
When your milage drops, your consumption increases. How does this reduce consumption of oil?
Some real garbage is that E-85 fuel that some new vehicles can use. It's not much cheaper than gasoline and your fuel mileage is in the dumper. I guess it's 85% ethonal and 10% gasoline. That stuff also stinks if you get it on your hands.
quote:
Originally posted by custosnox
quote:
Originally posted by izmophonik
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
which station? my part of the world is taken over by QT so I have to go a long ways to get real gas.
There is a sinclair at 81st and 169, that isn't that far.
they have not been vouched as using real gas. until they advertise it like some other stations in BA do, it cannot be confirmed they don't slip in E10.
and for those on the foreign oil high horse, get over yourselves. getting real gas does not mean more oil goes into it, it just means the ethanol filler isn't being used as an oxygenate.
I never said more oil goes into "real gas" vs. the blend. However, if you are substituting 10% of your final product with ethanol you are obviously reducing your consumption of oil...big difference.
When your milage drops, your consumption increases. How does this reduce consumption of oil?
Your measly 2% loss in efficiency (if that is even true) is small compared to the lowered consumption of oil made by refineries which is what I was referring to in the first place. You don't consume oil you consume gasoline. Oil is used in the process by the refineries to make gasoline. If the final product is 10% ethanol then less oil is consumed during the refining process to give consumers 1 gallon of fuel.
quote:
Originally posted by izmophonik
quote:
Originally posted by custosnox
quote:
Originally posted by izmophonik
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
which station? my part of the world is taken over by QT so I have to go a long ways to get real gas.
There is a sinclair at 81st and 169, that isn't that far.
they have not been vouched as using real gas. until they advertise it like some other stations in BA do, it cannot be confirmed they don't slip in E10.
and for those on the foreign oil high horse, get over yourselves. getting real gas does not mean more oil goes into it, it just means the ethanol filler isn't being used as an oxygenate.
I never said more oil goes into "real gas" vs. the blend. However, if you are substituting 10% of your final product with ethanol you are obviously reducing your consumption of oil...big difference.
When your milage drops, your consumption increases. How does this reduce consumption of oil?
Your measly 2% loss in efficiency (if that is even true) is small compared to the lowered consumption of oil made by refineries which is what I was referring to in the first place. You don't consume oil you consume gasoline. Oil is used in the process by the refineries to make gasoline. If the final product is 10% ethanol then less oil is consumed during the refining process to give consumers 1 gallon of fuel.
as much as a 25% decrease in effeciancy has been reported. And when you consume gasoline, since it takes oil to produce gasoline, you are, in effect, consuming oil. Not to mention the mechanical issues that running ethanol causes to your engine creating a greater loss of effeciancy, and increasing your maintenance cost.
If you believe in a 25% decrease then you probably also think that we never landed on the moon and that 9/11 was a government cover up. Or maybe you don't believe in any of those things and you're just a moron. Seriously, is science tought in Oklahoma schools anymore?
Sioux Falls, SD (December 5, 2007)- Research findings released today show that mid-range ethanol blends - fuel mixtures with more ethanol than E10 but less than E85 - can in some cases provide better fuel economy than regular unleaded gasoline, even in standard, non-flex-fuel vehicles.
Previous assumptions held that ethanol's lower energy content directly correlates with lower fuel economy for drivers. Those assumptions were found to be incorrect. Instead, the new research strongly suggests that there is an "optimal blend level" of ethanol and gasoline - most likely E20 or E30 - at which cars will get better mileage than predicted based strictly on the fuel's per-gallon Btu content. The new study, cosponsored by the U.S. Department of Energy and the American Coalition for Ethanol (ACE), also found that mid-range ethanol blends reduce harmful tailpipe emissions.
The University of North Dakota Energy & Environmental Research Center (EERC) and the Minnesota Center for Automotive Research (MnCAR) conducted the research using four 2007 model vehicles: a Toyota Camry, a Ford Fusion, and two Chevrolet Impalas, one flex-fuel and one non-flex-fuel. Researchers used the EPA Highway Fuel Economy Test (HWFET) to examine a range of ethanol-gasoline blends from straight Tier 2 gasoline up to 85 percent ethanol. All of the vehicles got better mileage with ethanol blends than the ethanol's energy content would predict, and three out of four actually traveled farther on a mid-level ethanol blend than on unleaded gasoline.
In addition to the favorable fuel economy findings, the research provides strong evidence that standard, non-flex-fuel vehicles can operate on ethanol blends beyond 10 percent. The three non-flex-fuel vehicles tested operated on levels as high as E65 before any engine fault codes were displayed. Emissions results for the ethanol blends were also favorable for nitrogen oxides, carbon monoxide and nonmethane organic gases, showing an especially significant reduction in CO2 emissions for each vehicle's "optimal" ethanol blend.
A gallon of Ethonal does not have as much "bang" per gallon as a gallon of gasoline does. Fuel mileage drops big time. if you get 20 mpg with pure gasoline you'll drop to around 15 mpg with Ethonal (or somewhere around there). You'll have fill up much more offten too. Ethonal does not have the BTU power of gasoline.
quote:
Originally posted by izmophonik
While your out getting "real gas" you're also supporting foreign oil you dumb$#@! Stop whining about 10% Ethanol and support your local farmers. I bet you drive an Expedition with a "Support Our Troops" yellow ribbon sticker too.
How about reading this?
Ethanol and it's so-called 'advantages' are a farce.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003612429_ethanol11.html
quote:
Originally posted by izmophonik
If you believe in a 25% decrease then you probably also think that we never landed on the moon and that 9/11 was a government cover up. Or maybe you don't believe in any of those things and you're just a moron. Seriously, is science tought in Oklahoma schools anymore?
First off, I said reported. If you want a news article that has been manufactured to "prove" this, like the one you pasted in (without even the benifit of a link or notation of who wrote it)to try and prove your point, go search the web and I'm sure you will find plenty. But it is belivable, if you had attended science and shop. The science says that it will have less energy in it period. No matter what spin you want to try and put on it, you can't change that fact. BTU = energy. ethonal has a lower BTU then gasoline. Shop class (or just doing a little shade tree mechanic work) tells you that if you put anything in your car that it was not designed to burn causes problems. Problems, over a period of time, create a loss of effiecency. So yes, a 25% fuel loss is possible from burning this poor excuse of an alternitive.
And I always find it humorous when someone runs out of good arguments that the first thing they do is make an attempt at insulting the other person, which generally shows their own ignorance.
quote:
Originally posted by izmophonik
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Originally posted by custosnox
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Originally posted by izmophonik
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Originally posted by inteller
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Originally posted by sgrizzle
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Originally posted by inteller
which station? my part of the world is taken over by QT so I have to go a long ways to get real gas.
There is a sinclair at 81st and 169, that isn't that far.
they have not been vouched as using real gas. until they advertise it like some other stations in BA do, it cannot be confirmed they don't slip in E10.
and for those on the foreign oil high horse, get over yourselves. getting real gas does not mean more oil goes into it, it just means the ethanol filler isn't being used as an oxygenate.
I never said more oil goes into "real gas" vs. the blend. However, if you are substituting 10% of your final product with ethanol you are obviously reducing your consumption of oil...big difference.
When your milage drops, your consumption increases. How does this reduce consumption of oil?
Your measly 2% loss in efficiency (if that is even true) is small compared to the lowered consumption of oil made by refineries which is what I was referring to in the first place. You don't consume oil you consume gasoline. Oil is used in the process by the refineries to make gasoline. If the final product is 10% ethanol then less oil is consumed during the refining process to give consumers 1 gallon of fuel.
you need to stop drinking the corn based kool-aid. It is a LOT more than 2% loss. For me I used to get 330 mi to a tank. Now I get 280 if I'm lucky. That is a 15% loss. Is my gas 15% cheaper than before? HELL NO!
quote:
Originally posted by izmophonik
If you believe in a 25% decrease then you probably also think that we never landed on the moon and that 9/11 was a government cover up. Or maybe you don't believe in any of those things and you're just a moron. Seriously, is science tought in Oklahoma schools anymore?
Yes it is AND spelling is also TAUGHT!!!!!
E0 = 116,090 BTU's
E10 = 112,114 BTU's
a 3.4% reduction in BTU's gives a 25% performance drop?
quote:
Originally posted by cks511
quote:
Originally posted by izmophonik
If you believe in a 25% decrease then you probably also think that we never landed on the moon and that 9/11 was a government cover up. Or maybe you don't believe in any of those things and you're just a moron. Seriously, is science tought in Oklahoma schools anymore?
Yes it is AND spelling is also TAUGHT!!!!!
Hey now, watch the spelling slams. They could never teach me how to do that. Spellchecker is my friend.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
E0 = 116,090 BTU's
E10 = 112,114 BTU's
a 3.4% reduction in BTU's gives a 25% performance drop?
I would say (nothing to back it up, just my opinion) that the increased drop in performance is more then the BTU reduction. I did say up to. As stated before, your run of the mill internal combustion engines are designed to run off of gasoline. So, when you have it running on something else, the mechanics behave differently. When you have your EMC thrown into the mix, it does even more. Since it is set to adjust to a straight gasoline burn, and you get a different result from a blend, it will give it problems, making it try to adjust to the new burn. The adjustment can easily translate into loss of performance. And the longer you run it this way, the more problems that are going to occur.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
E0 = 116,090 BTU's
E10 = 112,114 BTU's
a 3.4% reduction in BTU's gives a 25% performance drop?
I'm also guessing that the mechanics are changed by the ethanol, something about it. Just a guess, based on empirical evidence.
Would W3.4 gas (3.4% water, the rest gasoline), which has 3.4% less BTU's than 100% gas get 3.4% less performance? I'm going to guess it would screw a lot more up than just 3.4% of performance.
I think with E10, they found a way to water down the gas, while still getting it to run good enough that most people don't notice. If ethanol was so great on its own, how come even ethanol vehicles run on E85 which still needs 15% gasoline to get the horrible mileage that it does?
quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
E0 = 116,090 BTU's
E10 = 112,114 BTU's
a 3.4% reduction in BTU's gives a 25% performance drop?
I'm also guessing that the mechanics are changed by the ethanol, something about it. Just a guess, based on empirical evidence.
Would W3.4 gas (3.4% water, the rest gasoline), which has 3.4% less BTU's than 100% gas get 3.4% less performance? I'm going to guess it would screw a lot more up than just 3.4% of performance.
I think with E10, they found a way to water down the gas, while still getting it to run good enough that most people don't notice. If ethanol was so great on its own, how come even ethanol vehicles run on E85 which still needs 15% gasoline to get the horrible mileage that it does?
And I'd be one of those...I have a 2008 Dodge Avenger with a FlexFuel 2.7l V6 and if I use from QT, the mileage is horrible. Not sure if the engine can tell and adjusts since it is such a new car. I'll have to investigate. But, since it's flex fuel, I'm hoping the corrosion of the rubber parts is a non-factor.
quote:
Originally posted by Hoss
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Originally posted by YoungTulsan
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
E0 = 116,090 BTU's
E10 = 112,114 BTU's
a 3.4% reduction in BTU's gives a 25% performance drop?
I'm also guessing that the mechanics are changed by the ethanol, something about it. Just a guess, based on empirical evidence.
Would W3.4 gas (3.4% water, the rest gasoline), which has 3.4% less BTU's than 100% gas get 3.4% less performance? I'm going to guess it would screw a lot more up than just 3.4% of performance.
I think with E10, they found a way to water down the gas, while still getting it to run good enough that most people don't notice. If ethanol was so great on its own, how come even ethanol vehicles run on E85 which still needs 15% gasoline to get the horrible mileage that it does?
And I'd be one of those...I have a 2008 Dodge Avenger with a FlexFuel 2.7l V6 and if I use from QT, the mileage is horrible. Not sure if the engine can tell and adjusts since it is such a new car. I'll have to investigate. But, since it's flex fuel, I'm hoping the corrosion of the rubber parts is a non-factor.
It generally takes a tank or two to adjust, unless you reset the PCM on your vehicle and force the re-learn. It could even be possible that it thinks your E10 is E85. I would assume advancing the timing and running it a little richer would be preferred for E85.
my last tank I filled up on yesterday eeked out 314mi on 11.8gal. That is a horrendous 26.6 mpg, down from my 28-29 that I was getting on real gas. This was the pee water gas from Kum and Go. I'm going to run a few tanks from Sinclair so I can determine what they are mixing.
Sinclair seems to be OK so far, but Shell seems to vary. My last Sinclair tank I got 310 mpg, this Shell tank I got 255. What the heck? I have a 2004 Jeep Cherokee that I love like a child, so my baby is probably starving. Prior to the !EthanolSwitch! I always got 300.
quote:
Originally posted by Kashmir
Sinclair seems to be OK so far, but Shell seems to vary. My last Sinclair tank I got 310 mpg, this Shell tank I got 255. What the heck? I have a 2004 Jeep Cherokee that I love like a child, so my baby is probably starving. Prior to the !EthanolSwitch! I always got 300.
Temperature could have more to do with it than the station. Warmer temperatures require a leaner mix. Your Jeep only has an air temperature sensor as opposed to a Mass air flow sensor so it doesn't compensate as well to changes in temperature. Computer-controlled engines of today are supposed to adjust continuously to improve but your engine has been used to 30-50degree days up until the last two weeks.
Also keep in mind the Sinclair pump might've clicked off earlier and you didn't get a completely full tank.
Gas Geeks...heh...
Yeah there's lots to figure when you test fuel mileage. it's hard to do and takes time. To be real accurate you need to be sure you fill up the tank to the exact level each time and it's run down to the same level in each test.. Running a gasoline tank dry shortens the life of the expensive fuel pump but that will give you the most accurate test. (Temp matters too)[B)]
quote:
Also keep in mind the Sinclair pump might've clicked off earlier and you didn't get a completely full tank.
This is funny, but ever since I learned to drive I have "burped" the car when getting gas (leaning against it and putting weight on and then stuffing another gallon/half gallon inside, no runoff waste, I promise.) My dad always did...no lectures on how this is stupid, etc b/c I always have and I probably always will.
Oh well...we did get a new oxygen sensor and it seems to help too.
We have a Honda Fit and a Honda Insight in our household. We both saw mileage drops in the fall, about the time QuikTrip made the switch to an ethanol blend.
Since going with 100 percent gasoline about a month ago, we've seen mileage increases of 6 to 10 percent. Not a huge amount, but certainly a lot more than the 2 percent drop that the ethanol-blend folks claim.
Bottom line...I think we all agree corn based ethanol is a joke all across the board....
yeah, well QT is playing the joke on us. at least wal mart tells you on the pump that it is E10.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
yeah, well QT is playing the joke on us. at least wal mart tells you on the pump that it is E10.
yeah but very soon all stations will have E-10 fuel. That's the coming thing. I don't understand these high fuel prices gas buying is way down and prices still go up. I look at the pump and see how much fuel the last guy bought and it's only $10.00 or $20.00. When fuel was cheaper drivers bought alot more gasoline.[B)]
KOTV has a story about this on their website..
http://www.newson6.com/global/story.asp?s=8177510
quote:
Originally posted by Kashmir
Sinclair seems to be OK so far, but Shell seems to vary. My last Sinclair tank I got 310 mpg, this Shell tank I got 255. What the heck? I have a 2004 Jeep Cherokee that I love like a child, so my baby is probably starving. Prior to the !EthanolSwitch! I always got 300.
Back when I actually had to pay for gas, I always did this as well! I thought I was the only one, I would sometimes get strange looks from people. Oh well [:P]
I have been buying my gasoline almost exclusively from QT over the past 5 years, mostly from the 31st & Sheridan outlet. I have recently wondered if the gas I am buying was an ethanol blend; I assume from the discussion on this thread that it is.
I have not noticed a significant drop in fuel economy, but I drive my car so little that the change may not be noticeable to me. (I drive a 15 year old Oldsmobile 98 that only has 53,000 miles on it. I am the original owner.) My biggest concern is the impact of ethanol fuel on engine components and longevity. Comments?
quote:
Originally posted by Steve
I have been buying my gasoline almost exclusively from QT over the past 5 years, mostly from the 31st & Sheridan outlet. I have recently wondered if the gas I am buying was an ethanol blend; I assume from the discussion on this thread that it is.
I have not noticed a significant drop in fuel economy, but I drive my car so little that the change may not be noticeable to me. (I drive a 15 year old Oldsmobile 98 that only has 53,000 miles on it. I am the original owner.) My biggest concern is the impact of ethanol fuel on engine components and longevity. Comments?
The fact that you rarely drive it may raise some issues. I've read that letting the ethanol sit in your tank for more than 90 days can be damaging.
quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan
quote:
Originally posted by Steve
I have been buying my gasoline almost exclusively from QT over the past 5 years, mostly from the 31st & Sheridan outlet. I have recently wondered if the gas I am buying was an ethanol blend; I assume from the discussion on this thread that it is.
I have not noticed a significant drop in fuel economy, but I drive my car so little that the change may not be noticeable to me. (I drive a 15 year old Oldsmobile 98 that only has 53,000 miles on it. I am the original owner.) My biggest concern is the impact of ethanol fuel on engine components and longevity. Comments?
The fact that you rarely drive it may raise some issues. I've read that letting the ethanol sit in your tank for more than 90 days can be damaging.
You may be right. Last month March 2008, I replaced the original factory water pump, upper & lower radiator hoses & thermostat, serpentine drive belt, and cooling system flush on my 1993 Olds 98 (3.8 litre, 231 C.I., V6 engine). All is like brand new now, and I have never had any problems realted to fuel or the fuel injection system.
On average, I only have to put gas in my car about every 8 weeks, so I guess I should not worry about old ethanol gas in the tank.
quote:
Originally posted by Steve
I have been buying my gasoline almost exclusively from QT over the past 5 years, mostly from the 31st & Sheridan outlet. I have recently wondered if the gas I am buying was an ethanol blend; I assume from the discussion on this thread that it is.
I have not noticed a significant drop in fuel economy, but I drive my car so little that the change may not be noticeable to me. (I drive a 15 year old Oldsmobile 98 that only has 53,000 miles on it. I am the original owner.) My biggest concern is the impact of ethanol fuel on engine components and longevity. Comments?
Apparently people who store ethanol have to sign releases agreeing not to hold the tank company liable for the corrosive nature of ethanol. It will eat right thru the tank. If the tank that is designed to hold the ethanol can't handle ethanol -- it is a very strong possibility that a car never designed to run on ethanol won't either.
Best advice? Find a solid service station that truly sells 100% gasoline. Period.