You've heard it and I've heard it. And you know – some of what Wright says is right. But there is right and there is elect-able. It's got to play well with the hicks if you want to get elected. And the hicks aren't ready for complicated truths.
Then Obama shows us he isn't so different after all. He denounces his pastor of 20 years to get elected. And plays dumb.
The many idealists who support him will be disappointed. The old pragmatists of the party see a bit of reality taking hold.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
You've heard it and I've heard it. And you know – some of what Wright says is right. But there is right and there is elect-able. It's got to play well with the hicks if you want to get elected. And the hicks aren't ready for complicated truths.
Then Obama shows us he isn't so different after all. He denounces his pastor of 20 years to get elected. And plays dumb.
The many idealists who support him will be disappointed. The old pragmatists of the party see a bit of reality taking hold.
Here it comes! "You must hate America" rhetoric. Talk radio hyperbole. We're not counting on the hick vote. That got us the current state of affairs. Young people see through it. And not all congregants believe what their pastors, even if they are ex marines, preach.
Considering how a huge majority of Americans live in cities and aren't hicks, Hometown's missive (like many things he says) should be taken under advisement.
Sweetheart, I truly, truly wish that things had changed as much as you think they have. But I'm afraid that real change comes about very slowly in tiny increments. The hicks aren't going anywhere and we need their votes to win. Apparently Obama has figured that much out.
Well, think about all the hicks here in Oklahoma. It really doesn't matter what Obama says, or what Hillary says. The state will give its electoral votes to whatever Republican shows up on election day, regardless of whether it's Senator McCain or Daffy Duck.
Democratic nuances are irrelevant here.
The media coverage (especially the Foxnews/Talk radio coverage mind you) of this really illustrates how viciously the establishment is going to ostracize and label anti-american anyone who dares to question the policies that this nation supports.
Unless the forces of liberty win against the forces of oppression, this is just a small sample of what is to come in the future. Question POLICY, and you will be labeled a RACIST. Question POLICY, and you will be labeled UNAMERICAN.
If you have any problems with the system as it stands today, you better speak up soon, while you still can. Like they say at a wedding, "Speak now or forever hold your peace" - Except this is a marriage of media, corporations, government, banking, and military.
quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan
The media coverage (especially the Foxnews/Talk radio coverage mind you) of this really illustrates how viciously the establishment is going to ostracize and label anti-american anyone who dares to question the policies that this nation supports.
Unless the forces of liberty win against the forces of oppression, this is just a small sample of what is to come in the future. Question POLICY, and you will be labeled a RACIST. Question POLICY, and you will be labeled UNAMERICAN.
If you have any problems with the system as it stands today, you better speak up soon, while you still can. Like they say at a wedding, "Speak now or forever hold your peace" - Except this is a marriage of media, corporations, government, banking, and military.
That chance eluded us in 2004. Otherwise, kudos YT!
Meh. Every modern politician has to publicly disown a radical or mouthy member of his own political tribe. Clinton created the Sister Souljah moment in '92, but the press demands it now from almost every major candidate. Obama's gonna have to toss Wright over because it's more than just a controversy, it's a media-fabricated rite of passage.
This **** has been floating around about Obama for just about a year, have you guys seriously not heard about it prior to now? The Clintons think they've finally found something with traction against him.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
This **** has been floating around about Obama for just about a year, have you guys seriously not heard about it prior to now? The Clintons think they've finally found something with traction against him.
News stories are not even "news" anymore. They hold on to stuff and release it at strategic points so much now it is sickening. Someone in the media machine is giving directives, and trying to shape public opinion rather than just reporting news events as they happen, factually and unbiased. And apparently it is working quite well for the Clintons, if they are the ones behind this.
Obama did use this debacle as strategic cover to get some of the Rezko stuff disclosed when no one was paying attention: http://www.suntimes.com/news/marin/844638,carol031508.article
Whenever my friends get together and the talk turns to finding a candidate to carry our banner the plan always begins, "First, we'll find someone really squeaky clean ..." (which automatically cuts out some 96.89 percent of just about everybody.
It's good that we are seeing Obama face adversity now. How he handles this will tell us about what kind of representative he would be in November. If he is really good he'll finesse his way through it. If not, maybe we'll save ourselves a lost opportunity.
I'd imagine there are two or three more similar hits on Obama waiting out there somewhere. It's a fact of life now. And it's good that at least this one episode is playing early. The masses are asses and don't have much of a memory.
If you want a preview of November check out Fox (but don't linger). The good news is that the nation is ready for a change and Democrats are the agents of change.
Here's Obama's speech today, full text:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/18/obama-race-speech-read-t_n_92077.html
"This union may never be perfect, but generation after generation has shown that it can always be perfected."
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
Here's Obama's speech today, full text:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/18/obama-race-speech-read-t_n_92077.html
"This union may never be perfect, but generation after generation has shown that it can always be perfected."
His delivery was great! He seized the moment and the mantle of leadership. An historical moment...authentic, bold, honest.
Obama's addressing race issue head-on
http://www.suntimes.com/news/commentary/847971,CST-EDT-edit18.article
March 18, 2008
The Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr. is wrong. But Barack Obama, his most famous parishioner, has it right.
Videos snippets of Wright's sermons have surfaced in the last week, sound bites of Wright making ugly and incendiary comments from his South Side pulpit about America, whites, Hillary Clinton and Israel.
Obama has not only denounced each statement but today plans to make a major speech about race, politics and the need to come together as a nation. Instead of running from the issue, he's doing damage control and acting like a statesman at the same time.
By making what could be a historic address, Obama is forcing a conversation about the all-important American issue of race. It has been an undercurrent of the campaign for months, recently erupting to the surface. It's time to address it head-on.
On Friday, Obama removed Wright, who had just retired as pastor of Trinity United Church of Christ after 36 years, from a minor role on a campaign advisory board. That followed a decision last year to rescind an invitation for Wright to give the opening prayer when Obama announced his run for the presidency.
But Obama wisely stopped there.
He did not sever his ties with Trinity, an institution that does tremendous good in the black community. This is the church where he and Michelle were married and where their daughters were baptized. Walking away would have been politically expedient. Staying with the church can only hurt him.
But abandoning his church would have denied a fundamental truth: Wright's words, as ugly as they are, are rooted in the experience of many blacks in America--an experience Obama can't ignore personally and one he certainly doesn't want America to ignore.
"It just reminds me that we've got a tragic history when it comes to race in this country," Obama said this weekend. "We've got a lot of pent-up anger and bitterness and misunderstanding."
Wright's words also reflect the disparity many blacks feel between the promise of America and their daily reality.
"This righteous anger is about making America accountable to its own creed," said Dwight Hopkins, a theology professor at the University of Chicago Divinity School and a Trinity member.
Parishioners in black churches across America hear similar language from the pulpit each week, typically delivered in a larger, positive context -- as it was at Trinity -- that no 30-second sound bite could catch. Wright's message is not about black superiority or separatism, but about self-determination, about blacks doing for themselves.
And it works. Wright's church runs dozens of ministries devoted to self-help, including support for victims of domestic abuse and HIV/AIDS, advice for members on buying homes and avoiding foreclosure, legal counseling, tours for more 5,000 high schoolers to historically black colleges, youth mentoring and prison visits.
"Anybody who has been to the church knows this is a terrific, welcoming church," said Obama, clearly struggling with the narrow portrait being painted of Trinity and Wright. Trinity "is a wonderful faith community that has done very positive things in the community and also in my life."
All the same, we wish Obama had condemned Wright's inflammatory statements sooner. His claim that he had not heard them before last year rings hollow.
Many Americans who hear Wright's words cringe. Who could possibly believe in 2008 that we are the "The U.S. of K.K.K.A."?
This is not the 1950s, the pastor's critics say. This is not the America they know.
And they're right. Obama himself, a black man who could well be our next president, is the ultimate testament.
But for many African Americans, so many of whom still live in poverty or cling precariously to the first rung of the middle class -- who still confront insidious forms of racism each day -- America still has a long way to go.
Wriiiiiiiiiiigggghhht.
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
Wriiiiiiiiiiigggghhht.
Whiiiiiiiiiiggggghhhht.(sp.)
Was HufPo seriously the only outlet who covered this speech? Where were CNN, MSNBC, Fox, USA Today, WaPo, etc.?
This man gets it right sometimes, but sometimes monkeys can pick stocks better than the pros. This ministers views are clearly off base on more than one occasion. He not only buys into conspiracy theories, but seems to actually copy the rhetoric of "Ras the Exhorter." (bonus points if you get the references without Google)
- America's support for Israel is another example of White Racism.
- "Minister Farrakhan is among the greatest American's of all time" (I won't bother listing that man's deeds)
- "The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color"
- "The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no, God damn America..."
- "Hillary is married to Bill, and Bill has been good to us. No he ain't! Bill did us, just like he did Monica Lewinsky. He was riding dirty."
- "Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run!...We believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God."
- - -
My problem here is that Barrack did not distance himself from these comments until he was "caught." He kept going to the church and still claims the man as a close friend. The guy is a lose cannon for sure.
Not a death knell in my book, my certainly a smudge on that shiny armor.
[edit]
Oh, and my favorite thing thus far has been Hillary's response to Barrack's speech:
"I did not hear it nor have I read a transcript, but I'm glad he gave it. Race and Gender issues have been important to our country..."
Oh... I see what you did there.[/edit]
Is Obama so deft as to not understand that every single facet of his life was going to come under the public microscope? There is no way in 20 years that Rev. Wright's rhetoric was going in one ear and out the other.
I think he's starting to figure out what other former opponents already know: the Clintons play dirty. Especially Hillary.
You guys love Pat Buchanan
The guy writes and delivers a good speech. He's a rare talent.
Can anyone find a full length vid of it? All I'm getting are highlights or the text version. I want to see him actually speak the speech.
I have watched most of the you tube snippets of the speech and watched the coverage on two of the networks...it was a good speech.
He needed to address the relationship with his ex-pastor. He wanted to talk about race.
He combined them together and did a good job. Maybe this will help to push that issue in the past.
quote:
Originally posted by we vs us
The guy writes and delivers a good speech. He's a rare talent.
Can anyone find a full length vid of it? All I'm getting are highlights or the text version. I want to see him actually speak the speech.
The Huffington Post link listed by rwarn has it....another great one.
The Wright and Rezco relationships have been kicking around for awhile. I'm curious why Hillary's campaign didn't seize on these issues prior to Super Tuesday?
Or is this well-calculated by the Clintons, so Hillary didn't get dismissed as a racist by the populace, but will try to sway the super-delegates by scaring them into thinking a few more bones might fall out of the closet once it comes down to Obama and McCain?
I just watched it in on CSpan. It was quite different from his big campaign speeches. He was soft-spoken and reflective.
It was a great speech.
Yeah. Wow. He's really just a fantastic communicator. I know I sound all starry eyed but sheesh. His precision with language is really leaps and bounds beyond the other two in this race.
I saw the speech on Cspan.
You know, I think of the toothless greedy bumpkins that show up on Election Day to cast their votes, and the catchy short simple phrases that capture their attention and I don't know if Obama has delivered that simple answer. News spin will tell us a lot about how successful he has been. And it is early and memories are short.
The speech reached for some very complicated answers. I liked the links to White poverty. But I think his hope that this will be the election when we turn our attention to issues instead of gamesmanship is wishful thinking. I would prefer to see him accept the inevitable and be prepared to fight the battle at hand instead of the battle of ideas where he feels more comfortable. The speech was more of an exposition of life as we find it than a plan of action.
The greatest line I have heard came from John Stewart tonight: "he spoke to us about race like we were adults."
The real question now will be if we act like adults.
He said exactly what I would have wanted him to say. The words that were spoken in his church are spoken throughout the country in African American churches. We can dismiss it, but it will not go away. Nor can we dismiss the anger among poorer white men, who feel that another's gain is their loss.
Hometown, I am sorry that you have become so cynical to simply accept what you see as inevitable. I am not young, and I am not naive. But I do firmly believe in Ghandi's words: You must be the change you wish to see in the world. If you turn your attention to the issues and away from the gamesmanship, then one more person will have brought about change. And just maybe you'll convince one more person to do the same.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Was HufPo seriously the only outlet who covered this speech? Where were CNN, MSNBC, Fox, USA Today, WaPo, etc.?
I streamed it live on CNN while I was at work this morning - should be there
PMCaulk, whether or not a Democrat occupies the White House is literally a matter of life and death for people here at home and around the World.
It was the Geraldine's vice presidential candidacy that soured me on symbolic votes. A symbolic vote is a wasted vote. I believe the stakes are so high that our candidate must be prepared to face the fight that he or she is about to enter.
Someone who has the fire in the belly will have already crafted a strategy that deals with the real world. Obama is flying by the seat of his pants in that regard. He has not played this race any differently than other politicians before him, he has just been slow to learn and react.
I don't take any pleasure in seeing this painful playing out of the election cycle. But it reminds me of Kerry and Swift Boat and how very angry I am with Kerry for not being prepared for the obvious. Because of his incompetence lives have literally been destroyed while he has lived the life of a rich man.
I've heard Obama supporters make remarks like, "If he enters the fight he will be just like any other politician." Well, hello. What do you think he is? The second coming?
I'm not an Independent – fair weather friend. I'm a Democrat at the start and I'll be a Democrat at the end. And I will support our candidate with enthusiasm and have Obama signs in my yard if that is what it comes down to.
But throwing Granny under the bus? pancakes? One thing to confide something to a family member another thing entirely to say 'Thus saith the Lord' and the saith is a blasphemy.
To suggest that this kind of blaspheny is dominant in the af-am community of faith is grotesque.
On the other hand, MLKJ had a particularly pointed view of Vietnam (//%22http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1772990834810290128%22), basically calling it a racist anti-Christian war.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
PMCaulk, whether or not a Democrat occupies the White House is literally a matter of life and death for people here at home and around the World.
It was the Geraldine's vice presidential candidacy that soured me on symbolic votes. A symbolic vote is a wasted vote. I believe the stakes are so high that our candidate must be prepared to face the fight that he or she is about to enter.
Someone who has the fire in the belly will have already crafted a strategy that deals with the real world. Obama is flying by the seat of his pants in that regard. He has not played this race any differently than other politicians before him, he has just been slow to learn and react.
I don't take any pleasure in seeing this painful playing out of the election cycle. But it reminds me of Kerry and Swift Boat and how very angry I am with Kerry for not being prepared for the obvious. Because of his incompetence lives have literally been destroyed while he has lived the life of a rich man.
I've heard Obama supporters make remarks like, "If he enters the fight he will be just like any other politician." Well, hello. What do you think he is? The second coming?
I'm not an Independent – fair weather friend. I'm a Democrat at the start and I'll be a Democrat at the end. And I will support our candidate with enthusiasm and have Obama signs in my yard if that is what it comes down to.
This speech is actually a pretty good example of how he plays the game. He turned what would have been a real albatross for any other politician into an opportunity for a groundbreaking speech on race. He's getting props across the board for this thing -- "historic speech" is what I'm seeing the most, butUS News and World Reports has a good summary of the conventional wisdom. (//%22http://www.usnews.com/usnews/politics/bulletin/bulletin_080319.htm%22)
Point being, instead of being a politician about the Wright issue -- equivocating, or waffling, or disavowing his preacher, or hurriedly changing the subject -- which is what Kerry would have done -- Obama chose to deal with it as a leader might, by talking about it in depth and from many different angles. He attacked a crisis in his candidacy head on and more than salvaged it; according to most, he turned it into a transcendental moment.
Can you imagine Hillary doing something like this?
PS re: Kerry . . . Kerry wasn't ever as we good as we needed him to be in 2004. Not media savvy or media ready, not really a communicator so much as a pontificator. And when we figured that out, i think we all had a secret of moment of "omigod, we can't win with this guy." We did to him what we did to Al Gore in 2000, which was start demanding he be something he wasn't. We wanted Kerry to be a pugilist; we wanted Gore to be more earth-toned and relaxed. Neither of them were what we wanted.
Ah, but this would never, ever fly if it were a white candidate who went to a church headed by an anti-Semite. He'd have been drummed out of the campaign already- forced to step down.
I fail to see the difference in someone being a member of the Aryan Nation for the last 20 years and claiming suddenly to have not realized the message being thrown out by the leaders was one of hate and intolerance based on race. Because as we all know, it's just an innocent brotherhood of people of a similar race, right? [B)]
I'm stunned that Obama has prominent Jewish backers. This "spiritual advisor" of his shares similar views with the Revs. Jack$on and $harpton on Jews.
"I didn't know." What a great mea culpa.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Ah, but this would never, ever fly if it were a white candidate who went to a church headed by an anti-Semite. He'd have been drummed out of the campaign already- forced to step down.
I fail to see the difference in someone being a member of the Aryan Nation for the last 20 years and claiming suddenly to have not realized the message being thrown out by the leaders was one of hate and intolerance based on race. Because as we all know, it's just an innocent brotherhood of people of a similar race, right? [B)]
I'm stunned that Obama has prominent Jewish backers. This "spiritual advisor" of his shares similar views with the Revs. Jack$on and $harpton on Jews.
"I didn't know." What a great mea culpa.
Remember kids, arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics...even if you win you're still a retard.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Ah, but this would never, ever fly if it were a white candidate who went to a church headed by an anti-Semite. He'd have been drummed out of the campaign already- forced to step down.
I fail to see the difference in someone being a member of the Aryan Nation for the last 20 years and claiming suddenly to have not realized the message being thrown out by the leaders was one of hate and intolerance based on race. Because as we all know, it's just an innocent brotherhood of people of a similar race, right? [B)]
I'm stunned that Obama has prominent Jewish backers. This "spiritual advisor" of his shares similar views with the Revs. Jack$on and $harpton on Jews.
"I didn't know." What a great mea culpa.
For those that don't know -- Conan is a Republican hack.
Conan, we Democrats are working things out here but I want you to be assured we are going to whip the pants off of McCain and you too.
No one wants to give Baby Bush a third term.
You are well aware that McCain does not have the support of your core constituents. Your old coalition of the greedy and the religious nuts has fallen apart. Amen.
I can't wait for McCain's first temper tantrum. It ain't going to be pretty.
Mike Huckabee defends Wright:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/19/huckabee-defends-rev-jer_n_92346.html
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Ah, but this would never, ever fly if it were a white candidate who went to a church headed by an anti-Semite. He'd have been drummed out of the campaign already- forced to step down.
I fail to see the difference in someone being a member of the Aryan Nation for the last 20 years and claiming suddenly to have not realized the message being thrown out by the leaders was one of hate and intolerance based on race. Because as we all know, it's just an innocent brotherhood of people of a similar race, right? [B)]
I'm stunned that Obama has prominent Jewish backers. This "spiritual advisor" of his shares similar views with the Revs. Jack$on and $harpton on Jews.
"I didn't know." What a great mea culpa.
Remember kids, arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics...even if you win you're still a retard.
FOTD, My neighor's daughter competes in the special olympics and I am offended by your unkind remark. You lecture life-long advocates for minorities and then pull a stunt like this.
Wrong. Strong supporter of Special Olympics here. I make a point of a much higher bias comment and you try putting me on the defensive. That won't work.
Don't take things personally, it was not directed at your neighbors kid, and see the comment as one calling Conan out for being an imbecile.
Besides, I am one too....nothing wrong with putting one's self down along with the other one's here....we are all guilty of arguing on the internet. But the main thing is to recognize we care enough to be here....just like Ashley.
http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=164437&title=baracks-wright-response
Jon Stewart last night.....
"NOT THIS TIME!"
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Ah, but this would never, ever fly if it were a white candidate who went to a church headed by an anti-Semite. He'd have been drummed out of the campaign already- forced to step down.
I fail to see the difference in someone being a member of the Aryan Nation for the last 20 years and claiming suddenly to have not realized the message being thrown out by the leaders was one of hate and intolerance based on race. Because as we all know, it's just an innocent brotherhood of people of a similar race, right? [B)]
I'm stunned that Obama has prominent Jewish backers. This "spiritual advisor" of his shares similar views with the Revs. Jack$on and $harpton on Jews.
"I didn't know." What a great mea culpa.
For those that don't know -- Conan is a Republican hack.
Conan, we Democrats are working things out here but I want you to be assured we are going to whip the pants off of McCain and you too.
No one wants to give Baby Bush a third term.
You are well aware that McCain does not have the support of your core constituents. Your old coalition of the greedy and the religious nuts has fallen apart. Amen.
I can't wait for McCain's first temper tantrum. It ain't going to be pretty.
Good luck with whipping the pants off McCain. You guys are going to need to pull the reins in on the Clinton machine before your party self-imolates before the general election.
In case you guys didn't know Hometown is a liberal flack from San Francisco who keeps dumping on Tulsa and Oklahoma in general.
Way to go Hometown.....
You seem to have gotten a rise out of a local republijerk.[:D]
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
Wrong. Strong supporter of Special Olympics here. I make a point of a much higher bias comment and you try putting me on the defensive. That won't work.
Don't take things personally, it was not directed at your neighbors kid, and see the comment as one calling Conan out for being an imbecile.
Besides, I am one too....nothing wrong with putting one's self down along with the other one's here....we are all guilty of arguing on the internet. But the main thing is to recognize we care enough to be here....just like Ashley.
No offense taken you devil. Imbecile as charged at times, but I think I've called Obama fairly on this one. I must have hit a nerve or be too far off the mark since you resorted to quasi-name calling instead of a cerebral retort.
I still don't get the attraction to someone so glib as Obama. I honestly had started to gain some appreciation for him until I saw the way he handled this. It's pathetic.
"I didn't know, er um, I never heard that. Okay I did hear that and it was wrong, sorry, but here we are in the city of brotherly love..."
At some point you need to just accept you backed the wrong horse, you lost, and it's time to move on, FOTD.
In a way I feel sorry for Obama because he's had the misfortune to be opposed by Hillary. The Clintons are incredibly spiteful people and they think Hillary deserves to be President. They have a destiny to be the first husband and wife Presidents.
I think this is only the tip of the iceberg on Obama, and the Clintons are going to have a few more serious digs at him prior to the convention.
Hillary won't be happy unless she leaves with the nomination and #1 on the ticket. She will make Gore's temper-tantrum in '00 look like a grade school fit if she doesn't get the nomination.
FWIW- I'll vote for the best candidate, I'm not blinded by party affiliation. I still have not made up my mind where my vote will go for President in November.
You'll come around.....and vote for the be littler! He's one of us!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080319/pl_nm/usa_politics_dc_46
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Ah, but this would never, ever fly if it were a white candidate who went to a church headed by an anti-Semite. He'd have been drummed out of the campaign already- forced to step down.
I fail to see the difference in someone being a member of the Aryan Nation for the last 20 years and claiming suddenly to have not realized the message being thrown out by the leaders was one of hate and intolerance based on race. Because as we all know, it's just an innocent brotherhood of people of a similar race, right? [B)]
I'm stunned that Obama has prominent Jewish backers. This "spiritual advisor" of his shares similar views with the Revs. Jack$on and $harpton on Jews.
"I didn't know." What a great mea culpa.
I'm not seeing the double standard you're reaching for. He was pretty much attacked from every quarter for his association with Wright. And he went ahead and explained it yesterday. What do you want him to do? Something specific or just be more sorry?
If we're gonna argue about whether or not his speech was genuine, we'll have to call it here and go have a beer or something, because it was enough for me, though obviously not for you, and he either way he defends himself much better than I could.
quote:
Originally posted by we vs us
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Ah, but this would never, ever fly if it were a white candidate who went to a church headed by an anti-Semite. He'd have been drummed out of the campaign already- forced to step down.
I fail to see the difference in someone being a member of the Aryan Nation for the last 20 years and claiming suddenly to have not realized the message being thrown out by the leaders was one of hate and intolerance based on race. Because as we all know, it's just an innocent brotherhood of people of a similar race, right? [B)]
I'm stunned that Obama has prominent Jewish backers. This "spiritual advisor" of his shares similar views with the Revs. Jack$on and $harpton on Jews.
"I didn't know." What a great mea culpa.
I'm not seeing the double standard you're reaching for. He was pretty much attacked from every quarter for his association with Wright. And he went ahead and explained it yesterday. What do you want him to do? Something specific or just be more sorry?
If we're gonna argue about whether or not his speech was genuine, we'll have to call it here and go have a beer or something, because it was enough for me, though obviously not for you, and he either way he defends himself much better than I could.
I think it's genuine. I think he regrets having to respond to crap like this and Rezko, but it's politics and it's a dirty, filthy, nasty business at times. I guess there's two ways to look at it:
One- He really believes Wright hook, line, and sinker and that's why he's been going there long as he has.
Two- He's selective about which part of Reverand Wright's views he accepts. I'll buy that. I attend a progressive church where I don't agree with every view of the pastor (a very controversial figure in Christianity these days- or should I say Churchianity), but there's enough I do like about his Sunday message that I'm more than less a follower, though I can't say I agree with 100% of his philosophies.
That said, Obama did try to pull a blind man on this at first and think it would go away. He should have known better.
What's worse is this had been knocking around on Hannity, Savage, and Limbaugh's shows for close to six months, yet he had a deer-in-the-headlight first response to this. Here's this eloquent speaker, the orator of all orators and he blithered and blundered through it till he'd had time to think and be advised. We have one of those in office already and don't need another.
I got a better idea Wevus, let's just go have a beer and let the pundits argue on a television screen while we talk about wonderful spring weather in Tulsa and catch a beer buzz. [8D]
Pick your place and time, I'll even buy, and if the missus has time she's welcome as well.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Ah, but this would never, ever fly if it were a white candidate who went to a church headed by an anti-Semite. He'd have been drummed out of the campaign already- forced to step down.
I fail to see the difference in someone being a member of the Aryan Nation for the last 20 years and claiming suddenly to have not realized the message being thrown out by the leaders was one of hate and intolerance based on race. Because as we all know, it's just an innocent brotherhood of people of a similar race, right? [B)]
I'm stunned that Obama has prominent Jewish backers. This "spiritual advisor" of his shares similar views with the Revs. Jack$on and $harpton on Jews.
"I didn't know." What a great mea culpa.
For those that don't know -- Conan is a Republican hack.
Conan, we Democrats are working things out here but I want you to be assured we are going to whip the pants off of McCain and you too.
No one wants to give Baby Bush a third term.
You are well aware that McCain does not have the support of your core constituents. Your old coalition of the greedy and the religious nuts has fallen apart. Amen.
I can't wait for McCain's first temper tantrum. It ain't going to be pretty.
Good luck with whipping the pants off McCain. You guys are going to need to pull the reins in on the Clinton machine before your party self-imolates before the general election.
In case you guys didn't know Hometown is a liberal flack from San Francisco who keeps dumping on Tulsa and Oklahoma in general.
Born at Hillcrest. Schooled at Lincoln, Hoover, Whitney, Hale, TJC, OU ... and then some.
Proud Tulsa liberal, life-time Democrat and financial supporter of Hillary Clinton.
Conan, I'm saving up for you baby. Don't look now but old Grandpa McCain is red in the face and ready to blow.
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Originally posted by Hometown
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
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Originally posted by Hometown
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Ah, but this would never, ever fly if it were a white candidate who went to a church headed by an anti-Semite. He'd have been drummed out of the campaign already- forced to step down.
I fail to see the difference in someone being a member of the Aryan Nation for the last 20 years and claiming suddenly to have not realized the message being thrown out by the leaders was one of hate and intolerance based on race. Because as we all know, it's just an innocent brotherhood of people of a similar race, right? [B)]
I'm stunned that Obama has prominent Jewish backers. This "spiritual advisor" of his shares similar views with the Revs. Jack$on and $harpton on Jews.
"I didn't know." What a great mea culpa.
For those that don't know -- Conan is a Republican hack.
Conan, we Democrats are working things out here but I want you to be assured we are going to whip the pants off of McCain and you too.
No one wants to give Baby Bush a third term.
You are well aware that McCain does not have the support of your core constituents. Your old coalition of the greedy and the religious nuts has fallen apart. Amen.
I can't wait for McCain's first temper tantrum. It ain't going to be pretty.
Good luck with whipping the pants off McCain. You guys are going to need to pull the reins in on the Clinton machine before your party self-imolates before the general election.
In case you guys didn't know Hometown is a liberal flack from San Francisco who keeps dumping on Tulsa and Oklahoma in general.
Born at Hillcrest. Schooled at Lincoln, Hoover, Whitney, Hale, TJC, OU ... and then some.
Proud Tulsa liberal, life-time Democrat and financial supporter of Hillary Clinton.
Conan, I'm saving up for you baby. Don't look now but old Grandpa McCain is red in the face and ready to blow.
Got news for you sweetheart, McCain's got nothting to worry about right now. He's laughing his donkey off. The GOP decided to unify, the Democrats are still going to be swinging all the way to the convention as it looks right now.
Hillary is banking on Obama capitulating and accepting some sort of olive branch from the Clintons including their support in eight years.
Do you really think another five months and a week of infighting between Hillary and Obama are going to be good for the Democrats? Not hardly, it's all a bonus for McCain. Worst thing he's got to worry about is figuring out who his running mate will be.
I'll be shocked beyond words if Hillary concedes before the convention or even after. This is but the start of a stream of dirty laundry you are going to hear all the way to August. I think it could be bad enough to piss off the left-leaning moderates to vote for McCain just because they will be so sick of Hillary and Obama by November.
If Hillary is the nominee, even with Obama as a running mate, I think there will be a significant number of black voters who will feel hookwinked and either won't vote or will vote for McCain to punish the Democratic party.
You better hope your girl accepts a loss gracefully, or you can expect at least another four years of a Republican White House.
He's going to spin out of control at some point.
The age thing is really starting to show...
And then there's this....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-ymHdbd_tU&NR=1
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
He's going to spin out of control at some point.
The age thing is really starting to show...
And then there's this....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-ymHdbd_tU&NR=1
Wow, that video really swayed me.
[}:)]
'As of 9 this morning, the number-one most-watched video of the day on YouTube has been Barack Obama's speech on race, which at that point had generated just about a million views in less than 24 hours. Let me rephrase that. Nearly a million views for a 37-minute political speech not involving a woman singing in hot pants:'
http://www.time-blog.com/tuned_in/2008/03/youtube_dumbing_us_down_or_sma.html
Monday March 17, 2008
The difference between Jeremiah Wright and radical, white evangelical ministers
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/03/17/wright/index.html
"And James Inhofe -- who happens to still be a Republican U.S. Senator -- blamed America for the 9/11 attacks by arguing in a 2002 Senate floor speech that "the spiritual door was opened for an attack against the United States of America" because we pressured Israel to give away parts of the West Bank."
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Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I just watched it in on CSpan. It was quite different from his big campaign speeches. He was soft-spoken and reflective.
It was a great speech.
I just watched it too. I've never heard a politician speak so frankly about race in such a grown-up way. This is why I'm an Obama supporter. When he speaks, it's intelligent and thoughtful. I want to hear what he has to say. With everyone else, I cringe because they sound so insincere...or they are just spouting carefully formulated sound bites to please the base. Or, in the case of the current occupant...well...I could go on and on...
If the pen really is mightier than the sword, Obama has a chance to transform the country. His presidency would be a blow to the false divisions that partisan politics encourage and thrive on (but which serve only to generate apathy and disdain for the civic process). He doesn't speak in those terms. Which I appreciate, b/c I think we all have a lot more in common than the Fox news commentators want to admit.
While I like Hillary, I worry that she won't be able to convince people to share her vision for the policies she would like to implement. Her speeches just aren't that compelling. (Leadership isn't about telling people what to do, it's about inspiring people to share your vision.)
(I also worry that the side-show, paparazzi circus following the First Gentleman would overshadow any chance Hill has to communicate through the media on serious issues. This is the one thing I am certain we could expect on "day one" of a Hillary presidency: Bill will be there, and everyone will looking to see if his fly is zipped. I am so tired of that.)
FWIW, since most here of us here are white and muddle classed:
Big issue in America is class
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/356402_class26.html
"In one sense, Obama's point couldn't be clearer: Race is a distraction from class-based inequities. And if we dismiss working-class resentment as camouflaged racism, we will be distracted by the specter of race. So why has no one noticed that the much vaunted "race speech" is also a class speech? "
"The irony is that Obama's speech urging us not to be distracted by race has so far had quite the opposite effect. Obama now needs to confront with equal candor the lesson we were taught by that "first black president": It's the economy, stupid."
Now, go back to the threads on 1804!
And what favors have entitlements which typically are favored by liberals and directed at blacks done for them? More inner-city poverty and racial envy which make their way into the acrid words of people just like Jeremiah Wright.
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Originally posted by Conan71
And what favors have entitlements which typically are favored by liberals and directed at blacks done for them? More inner-city poverty and racial envy which make their way into the acrid words of people just like Jeremiah Wright.
You're missing the target....
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Originally posted by Conan71
And what favors have entitlements which typically are favored by liberals and directed at blacks done for them? More inner-city poverty and racial envy which make their way into the acrid words of people just like Jeremiah Wright.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/01/21/politics/main537363.shtml
(Condelezza) Rice said she had benefited from affirmative action during her career at Stanford University.
"I think they saw a person that they thought had potential, and yes, I think they were looking to diversify the faculty," she said.
"I think there's nothing wrong with that in the United States," Rice said. "It does not mean that one has to go to people of lower quality. Race is a factor in our society."
In a Friday interview with the American Urban Radio Network, Rice said she agreed that affirmative action is needed "if it does not lead to quotas."
In a speech to the Republican National Convention in 2000, Powell sharply criticized GOP attacks on affirmative action.
"We must understand the cynicism that exists in the black community," he said. "The kind of cynicism that is created when, for example, some in our party miss no opportunity to roundly and loudly condemn affirmative action that helped a few thousand black kids get an education, but you hardly heard a whimper from them over affirmative action for lobbyists who load our federal tax codes with preferences for special interests." Sunday on CNN, Powell said he remained "a strong proponent of affirmative action."
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IMHO, the southside of Chicago is its own country... gotta tell you, I've worked enough day jobs with the
"sistahs from the southside" to get a taste of the dynamic... and a friend of mine taught English and Creative Writing at all-black Englewood High School-- one of those "failing schools" that was closed down a couple of years ago... just so you know, Obama's church is very active in helping the poor...
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=88941182
...Trinity is in a largely impoverished neighborhood that Marty says is a tough place to fend for yourself, let alone a place to help others. "Yes, there'll be some anger about injustice," he says. "You can't be on the south side of Chicago and not be a victim of a lot of that."
Marty says he doesn't know any church that carries on more ministries to help area residents. Trinity's list is long: Career development, economic empowerment, college placement, credit union, HIV, diabetes and more.
As a white man, Marty says he's never felt uncomfortable visiting Trinity. "You walk in and people greet you at the door," he says. "You're likely to meet someone you know... Physicians, prominent judges...It's a very busy place. You're brought in. They put you in a nice seat and you're ready to go."
http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2008/01/14/obama/
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Ironically, Chicago became the political capital of black America because it was so racist. For most of the 20th century, it was the most segregated city in America. Blacks used to have a saying: "In the South, the white man doesn't care how close you get, as long as you don't get too high; in the North, he doesn't care how high you get, as long as you don't get too close." During the Great Migration, the refugees who rode up from Mississippi on the Illinois Central Railroad were crowded into the Black Belt, the South Side ghetto portrayed in Richard Wright's "Native Son." Because the black population was so concentrated, white politicians couldn't gerrymander it out of a congressional seat. One of De Priest's successors, William Dawson, was the most powerful black politician in America. He helped boot out the predecessor to Mayor Richard J. Daley, the current mayor's father, who bossed Chicago from 1955 to 1976. In return, Daley's machine rewarded Dawson with control of the entire South Side.
Ruf shoots & misses. Wasn't referring to Affirmative Action, I was referring to hand-out programs.
Conan....do you have a problem with "hand up" programs?
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Originally posted by FOTD
Conan....do you have a problem with "hand up" programs?
No I don't. There are some which work great. A perfect example is educational grants and low-interest student loans.
It has not escaped me that there are many self-sufficient people who have had to rely on temporary government support to get out of a situation they never thought they'd find themselves in.
Problem is though, politicians use social programs to buy votes and enslave one generation after another into mediocrity and government dependence.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/04/theres_no_excusing_obama_on_wr.html
There's No Excusing Obama on WrightBy Ed Koch
I am dumbfounded that there has been no drop in Barack Obama's standing in the polls following revelations that he sat in Rev. Jeremiah Wright's church for 20 years and did nothing, publicly or privately, to voice disagreement with Wright's hate speech. Indeed, Obama's poll numbers are going up. The most recent Gallup national tracking poll shows Obama with 51 percent and Hillary with 43 percent of Democratic voters.
One reason for the up tick in Obama's popularity may be that Hillary Clinton has had to explain her out-and-out falsehood of having been under sniper fire years ago in Bosnia. Her account of landing in Bosnia amidst sniper fire was totally demolished by a video clip taken at the time and now flashed all over tv showing her strolling across the tarmac with Chelsea to receive flowers and kisses from a waiting child.
Are the actions of our two United States Senators, both candidates for the Presidency, to be condemned equally? I don't think so. Hillary's failure, as gross as it may be, is related to self promotion. Barack's failure, in my judgment, is an out-and-out failure of moral strength, as he was unwilling to stand up to his bigoted minister, Wright, for 20 years while Wright denounced from the pulpit whites, Jews and the State of Israel.
We learned recently that Wright's defamatory comments published in church bulletins were, on occasion, also directed at Italians. ABC News reported on March 27th, "Trumpet Newsmagazine, of which Wright is the chief executive officer, published an article written by Wright in which he described the crucifixion of Jesus as 'public lynching Italian style.'" He also wrote, according to CNSNews.com, "The Italians for the most part looked down their garlic noses at the Galileans." Finally, CNN reported on March 28th that, "They [church bulletins] also quote a historian who said that 'what the Zionist Jews did to the Palestinians is worse than what the Nazis did to the Jews.'"
Let me report on the mail I received after my commentary of last week criticizing Senator Obama and Rev. Wright. Some of that correspondence defended Wright's attacks on the U.S., whites and Jews and Obama. Here are some excerpts from three readers of my commentary:
1. "I have read your recent message re: Sen. Obama's speech and I find your attacks totally unconvincing. The fact that you disregard the Reverend's positive contributions to his community and the positive aspects of the relationship between the Reverend and the Senator demonstrates either ignorance or bad faith, either of which is unbecoming of a man of your influence."
2. "I disagree with all that [Wright's charges against America] and ALL his hate speech. But I have no problem concluding that it does not represent Obama and that Obama should not be deemed unworthy of being president because he embraced the good in Wright and did not walk away when he heard the bad."
3. "I thought Sen. Obama's race speech was one of the most inspiring, hopeful, uplifting speeches I have ever heard in modern politics. You and I have been in politics long enough to know that guilt by association is a great way to create doubts about a candidate, but I have no doubt Sen. Obama has the best chance of getting us beyond stereotypes."
These readers seek to excuse Barack Obama's conduct, but I remain unconvinced. Obama told us in his brilliant and moving speech on March 18th that "I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community. I can no more disown him than I can disown my white grandmother," who engaged, he said, in racial stereotyping.
But now, on television talk programs, he tells us a somewhat different story. According to The New York Times of March 29th, "Mr. Obama, who has run the gamut of news shows in recent weeks to defuse the ado over his relationship with Mr. Wright, had no trouble finding longwinded words to demarcate his allegiance to his longtime pastor. 'Had the Reverend not retired and had he not acknowledged that what he had said had deeply offended people and were inappropriate and mischaracterized what I believe is the greatness of this country, for all its flaws,' he said, 'then I wouldn't have felt comfortable staying there at the church.'"
Did something happen since his speech of March 18th when he, in effect, offered excuses for his pastor's hate speech and his own reaction? I think not. Rather, I think he decided his prior silence was unacceptable. So now he tells us that but for his pastor's retirement and "acknowledge[ment] that what he had said deeply offended people and were inappropriate and mischaracterized," he would have left the church.
May I suggest Obama's sudden expressed desire to separate himself from his pastor came only after the media storm that followed the public outcry voiced at his pastor's remarks, particularly his having said, "No, no, not God Bless America. God damn America." If Obama becomes the Democratic nominee for president, he will be subject to withering attacks by the Republicans on this issue.
Does Obama's belated recognition of his minister's bigotry satisfy me? No, it does not. Indeed, I am surprised that Obama's description of his minister's hate speech, which he condemns, is limited to the words, "controversial," "inexcusable," "inappropriate, "troubling" and "appalling." Why hasn't he called it by its rightful name - hate speech?
I think what Hillary did in exaggerating the danger to her in Bosnia and seeking to convey a bravery that she did not exhibit in landing there years ago is to be condemned and not passed over as she and many of her supporters do, by saying that she "misspoke." Nevertheless, Obama's explanation of why he was silent until now and the manner in which he characterizes Wright's remarks are worse. Interestingly, he also refers to an apology by Rev. Wright, which I've not seen published anywhere. Have you?
And, more importantly, why did it take him 20 years to come to this conclusion?
Ed Koch is the former Mayor of New York City.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
Conan....do you have a problem with "hand up" programs?
No I don't. There are some which work great. A perfect example is educational grants and low-interest student loans.
It has not escaped me that there are many self-sufficient people who have had to rely on temporary government support to get out of a situation they never thought they'd find themselves in.
Problem is though, politicians use social programs to buy votes and enslave one generation after another into mediocrity and government dependence.
Politicians use power and entitlements to buy votes a ton more than social programs.
If we have been enslaved by the government into mediocrity it's more a result of dual income parenting than the lack of government supervision....
Today is Ed Koch's Day!