http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080311_1_A1_hTheK78883
quote:
Famed Blair estate to be purchased
by: BRIAN BARBER World Staff Writer
3/11/2008 12:00 AM
The Kaiser foundation is buying the property for community use.
The George Kaiser Family Foundation has a contract to buy the 33-acre historic Blair estate for an undetermined community use, the Tulsa World learned Monday.
Those who frequent Riverside Drive know the property as the one with the sweeping lawn and plantation-style mansion between 26th and 29th streets.
Foundation Executive Director Ken Levit confirmed the pending sale but would not disclose the purchase price. The closing is set to take place in the next several weeks.
Levit said there are no specific plans for the property.
"I don't think anything is going to change for quite some time," he said. "But we would like to find a way for it to be an asset for the public in the long term.
"We see it as a special and unusual resource for the community as a whole."
Levit said he expects the property primarily will be "park-like in one form or another."
The property has been owned by nursing home developer Daniel S. Buford since 1995. The estate of oilman B.B. Blair -- built in 1952 -- was put up for sale after the death of his widow, Penelope Blair.
Although the River Parks Authority had hoped to purchase it back then, Buford was the one who made the first offer.
It was initially feared that Buford would turn the property into a nursing home or possibly cut up the lot and build homes, but he instead chose to live there.
Although the purchase includes the 6,000-square-foot mansion, the Buford family will continue to reside there for "a number of years," Levit said.
"We're talking about a long time before plans are developed or even discussed," he said. "The Buford family has done a wonderful job of maintaining and preserving the property, and that level of care will continue to take place even though the ownership will change."
The Kaiser foundation last year donated $12.4 million to create a dual trail system to replace the existing one in River Parks, which is located across the street from the Blair estate.
Acquiring the property is seen "as adding to the fabric of the River Parks region," Levit said.
"I think it's an exciting opportunity for the community that this will be stitched together with the trails and the park system," he said.
River Parks Executive Director Matt Meyer said he has had no discussions with foundation officials about plans for the property.
"But in general, the George Kaiser Family Foundation has been an awesome partner for River Parks and we are very appreciative of their generosity and long-term vision," he said.
"I see this as being good news."
(http://www.tulsaworld.com/articleimages/2008/200803_A1_hTheK78883_3.11blair.jpg)
This make me wonder about the picture TulsaWorld leaked, then removed, that showed Riverside drive being run through the blair front lawn making for a larger park at the pedestrian bridge.
yeah exactly. That piece of property was beautiful. Now it will be dug up....or made into a dog park so people can take their dogs to ****. Some things should be left alone.
And here everyone thought Mr. Kaiser was going to pick up his marbles and go home....
I will just rehash my response on there...
Hmmm, this does open up some possibilities. Would indeed be good to keep the space open and the old home there. However, it might be nice to come up with some way to add a garden type walking path around the outer edge that loops around the entire property. Not something over done but something with taste and class, plantation or colonial style gardens perhaps. A white wicker rose arbor somewhere, a small white gazebo, water features. Again leaving the center lawn open and clean, but add something around the outer edge to entice and allow people to walk around the space, have picnics on the lawn, tented art shows, etc. The old house in later years could be used as a community space for art classes, meetings, weddings,,,
And how bout some constructive ideas inteller? I am gonna put mine out there and push for something nice to be done with the property. If it happens, Dont want to hear you bellyache. Find some way to become involved in a positive way, or sit back and whine about what other people do. Even bad ideas win out over no ideas. Your choice.
My two cents is that he is genuine and wants to now stay clear of anything like the miller and taylor freakin fiasco river tax. IMHO!
I'm a big fan of George Kaiser. And I was one who thought he was taking his ball and going home. Glad he proved me wrong.
Frankly, it's his land now, he can do with it as he pleases (within the guise of his non-profit and the guidelines of course). I like a big open lawn sitting there, but it is really a waste. If it is bulldozed and turned into housing it's a better use than it is now (it would be a neat spot for a row of setback brownstones with a park in front of them, facing the river with access from the rear. Hell, that could be a break even for the foundation and leave more money for river parks!).
Obviously I'd PREFER a dog park to development, or even a kid park [;)] (really Inteller, what harm would it be to you if it was a dog park? Currently is is nothing to you). Thus far the Kaiser foundation has been nothing but good for Tulsa, I have no reason to doubt this will be more of the same.
Maybe we can make it a quite area for reflection, where Inteller can go pout about how everything sucks so much (in his new Mercedes SUV).
I think he should straighten the road and use some of the lawn. That has got to be one of the most dangerous stretches of four lane anywhere...
That would get the road further from the path and allow a larger gathering place close to the river.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I think he should straighten the road and use some of the lawn. That has got to be one of the most dangerous stretches of four lane anywhere...
That would get the road further from the path and allow a larger gathering place close to the river.
it is only a dangerous stretch if you don't know how to drive your lumbering suburban through a more narrow than normal passage. The road on that particular part of riverside is actually pretty smooth compared to the hell around 41st. I owuld hate to see it get torn up just so more trails can be built. Is that the ultimate goal? Let all the streets fall apart so we can jog to work?
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I think he should straighten the road and use some of the lawn. That has got to be one of the most dangerous stretches of four lane anywhere...
That would get the road further from the path and allow a larger gathering place close to the river.
it is only a dangerous stretch if you don't know how to drive your lumbering suburban through a more narrow than normal passage. The road on that particular part of riverside is actually pretty smooth compared to the hell around 41st. I owuld hate to see it get torn up just so more trails can be built. Is that the ultimate goal? Let all the streets fall apart so we can jog to work?
I don't care how many trails you build, I don't "jog" no matter what. I do see some benefit from moving the road, not as far as the TW image showed (it move the road so close you could spit on the porch) but I think 20ft or so into the lawn wouldn't hurt and it would help people use the pedestrian bridge and surrounding areas more. Much of the west bank is taken up by stairs and ramps to get you onto the pedestrian bridge and the bike/walking path through it is about 5-6 feet wide. A more open arrangement wouldn't hurt.
And yes, people don't know how to drive through it. They fear the wall. I was above riverside there yesterday and was dumbfounded by the number of people who couldn't keep their car between the lines. It was more than 50% of the cars I counted.
If anyone needs a reference picture, it's the area behind my kids:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2105/2326967610_43e28896d1.jpg)
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
If anyone needs a reference picture, it's the area behind my kids:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2105/2326967610_43e28896d1.jpg)
First off, that's adorable.
Second, that pictures nicely shows how empty the lawn is. There's nothing there to "preserve." It's just a swath of grass in an otherwise lively area. I always wondered why more hadn't been done with it.
you are absolutely right, there is nothing to preserve, and that's exactly why it needs to stay that way. There seems to be this addiction in Tulsa that every open stretch of land has to have something built on it. Give me a break. Decades from now we'll be dying for some open space. Just look how popular Central Park is in New York.
Wow. Comparing Tulsa to NYC and 3 acres of green space to Central Park.
Ignoring the fact that most people in Tulsa have their own green space. Ignoring the miles of green space across the street in River Parks. Ignoring Zink park just down the street. Ignoring all the other large by NYC green spaces around town (including Woodard and of course large green space in Mohawk park) and the fact that all the green space you want is an hours drive in any direction.
I'm a big fan of green space and parks, but pretending like it is a scarce commodity in Tulsa or will be in the near future, let alone to the extent NYC is lacking it, is a bit out there. Is this your new angle to oppose any development in Tulsa? We need the green space.
I for one don't see much point is preserving acres and acres of bermuda...hardly what I'd call stunning landscape architecture. Maybe some sort of park would work. Heck, even a few nice homes scattered in there with nice, interesting landscaping would be better that what's there now.
My whole point is moving the road a bit (you can see the sidewalk goes straight but the road curves in the picture) won't take anything away. You just put some of the green space by the river instead of all of it in front of the house.
Found it, finally:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3067/2327364836_2a1ae8dc66_o.jpg)
The area in the top-right corner was pulled within a couple of hours after the story hit the website last year. Maybe this purchase has something to do with that picture and was removed when they realized they had shown their hand.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
I don't care how many trails you build, I don't "jog" no matter what.
I don't run unless people chase me.
Unfortunately, since I started posting on TulsaNow, it happens frequently.
I always knew there was a fine line between having people follow you and being chased.
Let's back away from judging the proper use of the property for a moment and ask, what does this purchase suggest about Kaiser's river intentions?
Options:
1) It's an isolated purchase which takes advantage of an opportunity and makes sure that property will be available someday for either directed commercial use (mixed-use, river-oriented fun stuff) or civic (move Riverside and make some more parkland).
2) It's part of a plan coordinated by Kaiser to move toward private river development, on a smaller scale than the proposal voters shot down last year.
3) The River Plan never died, and has been quietly moving forward behind closed doors, waiting for adjustments to be made, new officials to be elected, streets to be fixed, and the mood of the county to improve.
What angle am I missing here? This purchase signals that something is going on. We just don't know what yet.
I value all green space, and I love walking, biking or driving by this particular chunk. At night, you can learn about micro-climates when you realize that this stretch of Riverside is often foggy...b/c the grassy area is several degrees cooler than the surrounding asphalt and rooftops. I've also seen red foxes and coyotes traversing this field.
However, I could imagine some terrific uses of this space that would preserve and improve the greenspace.
I also agree that the tight curve under the pedestrian crossing is dangerous. People often hold political rallies there, waving signs at passing motorists, and I always cringe... wondering when the fatal accident is going to occur.
Even if you keep your eyes on the road, there's a weird drainage problem that causes water to accumulate up to several inches deep in the road under the bridge. People hit it going 45 MPH and either are blinded by the splash or they hydro-plane on the water.
Last time the Blair mansion was sold, I was terrified it would be subdivided (like so many grand old estates in this town) and filled with faux French Provencial McMansions. I'm relieved the Kaiser folks bought it. Good choice.
quote:
Originally posted by bigdtottown
I for one don't see much point is preserving acres and acres of bermuda...hardly what I'd call stunning landscape architecture. Maybe some sort of park would work. Heck, even a few nice homes scattered in there with nice, interesting landscaping would be better that what's there now.
See, I've always thought it was cool to drive down Riverside and show people from out of town our own version of Monticello with a lawn like an Antebellum plantation.
It is currently a "dog Park" if Red Foxes count.
To all that suggest housing...uhh...get out. Buford could have done that and didnt....and he is a developer type of housing more so than Kaiser. Kaiser (I have never met him but would like to shake his hand approvingly)sees the grand B I G picture more clearly than the rest of us plebes ever will.
Stand back or lend a hand and let THE MAN show us small town negative nit-pickers how to do SOMETHING FOR TULSA.
I say it again: Go Kaiser Foundation!!! and thank you again!
Leave Riverside alone(for a good number of years)....learn to drive,slow down or avoid the area.
The article states that Buford will occupy the proerty for a number of yrs....good! This time will allow the naysayers on River Develpoment to die off (preferred!LOL)or pull their heads out of a dark place and a plan (a good one) to be placed on the table.
.....oh one more thing...I agree w/ Inteller on this issue.
Good Day.
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
Options:
1) It's an isolated purchase which takes advantage of an opportunity and makes sure that property will be available someday for either directed commercial use (mixed-use, river-oriented fun stuff) or civic (move Riverside and make some more parkland).
2) It's part of a plan coordinated by Kaiser to move toward private river development, on a smaller scale than the proposal voters shot down last year.
3) The River Plan never died, and has been quietly moving forward behind closed doors, waiting for adjustments to be made, new officials to be elected, streets to be fixed, and the mood of the county to improve.
I agree and gut feel says Door #3. After we cavemen voted
NO, the rulers did not just go back to their 20,000 sq ft tee-pees and slam the door and say forget it. BUT, lookee, we voted NO and are still getting some of the stuff...wow what a concept. IMHO
I hope GK remembered to reserve all signage rights that go with the property and I mean immediately. Gadz, Dan's politics sometimes.....But I envision Obama signs as far as the eye can see in the short term.
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
I hope GK remembered to reserve all signage rights that go with the property and I mean immediately. Gadz, Dan's politics sometimes.....But I envision Obama signs as far as the eye can see in the short term.
I saw people putting up a bunch of giant Hillary signs the day before Super Tuesday.
Atleast they only stayed up one day. But they were large enough that they surely had the landowner's permission.
quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan
I saw people putting up a bunch of giant Hillary signs the day before Super Tuesday.
Atleast they only stayed up one day. But they were large enough that they surely had the landowner's permission.
I think if they had permission, they would've stayed longer.
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
Let's back away from judging the proper use of the property for a moment and ask, what does this purchase suggest about Kaiser's river intentions?
Options:
1) It's an isolated purchase which takes advantage of an opportunity and makes sure that property will be available someday for either directed commercial use (mixed-use, river-oriented fun stuff) or civic (move Riverside and make some more parkland).
2) It's part of a plan coordinated by Kaiser to move toward private river development, on a smaller scale than the proposal voters shot down last year.
3) The River Plan never died, and has been quietly moving forward behind closed doors, waiting for adjustments to be made, new officials to be elected, streets to be fixed, and the mood of the county to improve.
What angle am I missing here? This purchase signals that something is going on. We just don't know what yet.
Floyd, I like your analysis. The part which is most encouraging is that Ken Levit is saying this is somewhat of a long-term holding or plan.
I'd suspected Mr. Kaiser would have eventually contributed more money for the river even without the river tax.
I dont think there was ever any doubt that we would "eventually" get everything done along the river, including the dams. Its mostly a matter of timing, now or who knows when... difficulty and whether or not we will get 100 million to help? Nobody is going to give up their dreams, its just going to take a loooot longer to materialize. Thus the impact wont be as immediate and as great, and we will be losing likely decades or more of "compounding interest" that such a large investment in the beginning could have been accruing. We cant of course change the past. So lets keep pushing to get every little bit done that we can and all donate as much as we can to help.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
I dont think there was ever any doubt that we would "eventually" get everything done along the river, including the dams. Its mostly a matter of timing, now or who knows when... difficulty and whether or not we will get 100 million to help? Nobody is going to give up their dreams, its just going to take a loooot longer to materialize. Thus the impact wont be as immediate and as great, and we will be losing likely decades or more of "compounding interest" that such a large investment in the beginning could have been accruing. We cant of course change the past. So lets keep pushing to get every little bit done that we can and all donate as much as we can to help.
I don't agree. That was a pay-as-you-go project. There's a lot stuff happening in the background. The time frame might be pushed back by a few years than if we'd have done this all as one package, but not decades.
I'm learning there are also quite a few people who were for the project at the time who are now saying privately it was a cluster **** and was poorly timed. Pretty much what a number of us less-important people were saying at the time.
Time will tell... How are all those dance partners doin you assured us would be there for a hotel by the arena? I love keeping up with the latest news on the new development on the west bank. Don't you?
I am willing to bet you, most of the stuff that would have been in and along the river by 2027 (what the river vote laid out) will not be there by 2027.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
Let's back away from judging the proper use of the property for a moment and ask, what does this purchase suggest about Kaiser's river intentions?
Options:
1) It's an isolated purchase which takes advantage of an opportunity and makes sure that property will be available someday for either directed commercial use (mixed-use, river-oriented fun stuff) or civic (move Riverside and make some more parkland).
2) It's part of a plan coordinated by Kaiser to move toward private river development, on a smaller scale than the proposal voters shot down last year.
3) The River Plan never died, and has been quietly moving forward behind closed doors, waiting for adjustments to be made, new officials to be elected, streets to be fixed, and the mood of the county to improve.
What angle am I missing here? This purchase signals that something is going on. We just don't know what yet.
Floyd, I like your analysis. The part which is most encouraging is that Ken Levit is saying this is somewhat of a long-term holding or plan.
I'd suspected Mr. Kaiser would have eventually contributed more money for the river even without the river tax.
I'm sure you're right. What I'm trying to figure out is whether this purchase is an isolated incident--simply taking advantage of the opportunity to snag the Blair property while it's available, preserving it some as-yet-unplanned future use--or whether it's part of a more coordinated, behind the scenes effort to put together a new river plan for eventual presentation to the public. Pure conjecture.
The reason I wonder, I admit, is that I kind of hope it's the latter--that Kaiser hasn't given up on the idea of a coordinated master plan to make the Arkansas a central attraction for Tulsa, and his foundation is quietly going about laying the groundwork for that. But, given Mr. Levit's comments, I think it's the former--the property was again going to be for sale, and they snagged it for as-yet-undefined public purpose before a private entity could come in and develope it for other (possibly less desirable) use.
KFF's actions have been pretty stealthy. I think intentions would become more clear if they were to buy up the houses which line Riverside between 31st and I-44 (can't remember how far south, I realize there are not houses all the way to I-44, and there are apartments closer to 31st) to create a buffer for the east side.
Considering the status as a charitable trust, the eventual intentions of the Blair property would be public use. I suppose they could purchase the concrete plant as well and turn around and deed it to the city, if they so wished. That property hasn't been mentioned in awhile.
Artist- I don't recall ever weighing in on a hotel near the arena other than lampooning Heavenly Hospitality a few times. [:o)]
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
KFF's actions have been pretty stealthy. I think intentions would become more clear if they were to buy up the houses which line Riverside between 31st and I-44 (can't remember how far south, I realize there are not houses all the way to I-44, and there are apartments closer to 31st) to create a buffer for the east side.
Considering the status as a charitable trust, the eventual intentions of the Blair property would be public use. I suppose they could purchase the concrete plant as well and turn around and deed it to the city, if they so wished. That property hasn't been mentioned in awhile.
Artist- I don't recall ever weighing in on a hotel near the arena other than lampooning Heavenly Hospitality a few times. [:o)]
I remember you using that "lets not dance with the first girl that asks us to the dance" thing numerous times.
I have even railed about you using that line over and over, before..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Conan71
The timing of the renderings is not all that surprising. In lieu of having the major details worked out, throw out a little more window-dressing. Even though Huffman's development is but one potential for the RFP, they've got someone who could crank out some quick renderings and build more excitement.
I did notice from the rendering that the ball park or multi-sport facility would be on the former city maintenance and engineering facility. That would be a logical use of the land.
I'm still not swayed, patience people, patience.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patience patience. Don't go with the first person that asks ya to the dance....
Hows that Towerview property going?
Hows that East End development going?
How many years do you have in mind for us to wait? Decades perhaps? Where are all the other offers to dance?
I dont know what other topic, other than the River Development and the Hotel you would have used that line on. And to the best of my recollection it was about the hotel development and not wanting to make any of the changes they were asking for. You kept saying, just wait, no need to go with the first girl that asks us to the dance, we will get plenty more offers "in reference to the hotel development". Would do a site search but the search engine seems to take forever lol.
Agreed on the West Bank development. But I don't think I've ever weighed in on Towerview or a hotel development by the arena other than mocking the developers. Hell, who knows maybe I have, but I don't remember. That's the beauty of advancing age, I can always claim ignorance on dying brain cells. [:P]
Originally by the Artist.>I am willing to bet you, most of the stuff that would have been in and along the river by 2027 (what the river vote laid out) will not be there by 2027.< end clip.
Thank goodness for small favors.
This conversation regarding the Blair land seems to have taken the tone of an item previously encompassed by the "River Tax".
I don't think D Buford was aware of that.
On another possibly related note.... You all, are aware the extent of Buford's holdings....
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
Originally by the Artist.>I am willing to bet you, most of the stuff that would have been in and along the river by 2027 (what the river vote laid out) will not be there by 2027.< end clip.
Thank goodness for small favors.
This conversation regarding the Blair land seems to have taken the tone of an item previously encompassed by the "River Tax".
I don't think D Buford was aware of that.
On another possibly related note.... You all, are aware the extent of Buford's holdings....
Rico, I don't have the slightest idea. All I can imagine is my holdings are like the inverse of his.
[}:)]
^
The reason I bring this up... there was a rumor a while back that Buford may begin parting off his holdings.
"time to gather your winnings and move on.."
considering all this.... It just makes me wonder how much connected to anything previously placed on the table current events are.
did not mean to push the conversation towards someone knowing more than another.
If the item is to be fully looked at... all facts have to be considered. [;)]
No connection at all. Dan has been considering divesting some of his holdings, while investing in other things. Nothing more, nothing less. You are looking too deep into this...
Don't be surprised to see him shuffle a few things over the coming months.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
And here everyone thought Mr. Kaiser was going to pick up his marbles and go home....
No kidding! What happened to "the money will be spent somewhere else"? Guess he was bluffing. I'm glad to have called that bluff.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
And here everyone thought Mr. Kaiser was going to pick up his marbles and go home....
No kidding! What happened to "the money will be spent somewhere else"? Guess he was bluffing. I'm glad to have called that bluff.
It did, it got spent on the east side of riverside drive... could be a technicality.
Ref, can we get a ruling?
I hope he didnt spend the whole 100 mill on that one property? They did say they would do what they could. "No need to build piers out over sand bars, or fountains in the middle of sand bars either lol". Which begs the question. I wonder when the QT park near 41st is to go ahead? He said they would still do a scaled back version of that park.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
I hope he didnt spend the whole 100 mill on that one property? They did say they would do what they could. "No need to build piers out over sand bars, or fountains in the middle of sand bars either lol". Which begs the question. I wonder when the QT park near 41st is to go ahead? He said they would still do a scaled back version of that park.
From recent discussions with RPA, QT is proceeding with a reduced version of the 41st Street area park area.
quote:
Originally posted by Vision 2025
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
I hope he didnt spend the whole 100 mill on that one property? They did say they would do what they could. "No need to build piers out over sand bars, or fountains in the middle of sand bars either lol". Which begs the question. I wonder when the QT park near 41st is to go ahead? He said they would still do a scaled back version of that park.
From recent discussions with RPA, QT is proceeding with a reduced version of the 41st Street area park area.
I hope so. So far their great 50th anniversary plans for 1-44&Peoria and 41st&Riverside are both.. well.. MIA.
I saw some plans for the 41st street improvements on Saturday. They are moving forward and have some nice sketches.
It will include some buildings for restrooms and a large outdoor gathering area.
Does anyone know if the scaled-down plans are online?
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I saw some plans for the 41st street improvements on Saturday. They are moving forward and have some nice sketches.
It will include some buildings for restrooms and a large outdoor gathering area.
Good for QT. Maybe if we are lucky they will put in a disc golf course and a rugby field near 41st too.
For your lunch pleasure....someday we will gather at the banks of a mighty river that flows past the thrown of the great god on high ...gather with the saints and the sinners....sing that grand ole hymn!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2J490ZN2jV0&feature=related
It's a sing along! Something that was popular when music was spiritual....
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
For your lunch pleasure....someday we will gather at the banks of a mighty river that flows past the thrown of the great god on high ...gather with the saints and the sinners....sing that grand ole hymn!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2J490ZN2jV0&feature=related
It's a sing along! Something that was popular when music was spiritual....
Pass.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I saw some plans for the 41st street improvements on Saturday. They are moving forward and have some nice sketches.
It will include some buildings for restrooms and a large outdoor gathering area.
Recycle "You shoulda been there it was so cool" Michael.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I saw some plans for the 41st street improvements on Saturday. They are moving forward and have some nice sketches.
It will include some buildings for restrooms and a large outdoor gathering area.
Recycle "You shoulda been there it was so cool" Michael.
HA! [:P]