quote:
Randi Miller said at 7:20, 11/15/2007 on KRMG radio
Whoever came up with the idea the space would just be surface parking was misinformed.
Here are some picture of the non-surface parking I took on last Thursday:
(http://lh3.google.com/cannon.fodder.junk/R8xy114vaDI/AAAAAAAAAHc/hWOFkIXlt8s/s800/Photo0064.jpg)
(http://lh4.google.com/cannon.fodder.junk/R8xy2F4vaEI/AAAAAAAAAHk/qgke4idJw44/s800/Photo0066.jpg)
(http://lh4.google.com/cannon.fodder.junk/R8xy2F4vaFI/AAAAAAAAAHs/WDuPdg92w6w/s800/Photo0068.jpg)
(http://lh5.google.com/cannon.fodder.junk/R8xy2V4vaGI/AAAAAAAAAH0/DJPLrDUgjVo/s800/Photo0069.jpg)
(http://lh3.google.com/cannon.fodder.junk/R8xy214vaHI/AAAAAAAAAH8/GZAxIfEuiEA/s800/Photo0071.jpg)
I think it's safe to call BS.
Those are phone pictures, so sorry that the quality is not all that...
Wasn't there supposed to be some sort of beer garden and tiger/lion display?
I could give a crap about the tigers and lions but don't dangle beer gardens in front of me just to yank 'em away.
Other than that, the parking lot is lovely.
I heard the Beer garden rumor too, but have not found a source.
Keep in mind that in addition to losing the $135,000 a year in rent we also paid $210,000 to take down the Roller Coaster and another $227,500 to clear the land. Figure the annuity is worth $2mil (PV of an annuity at 7%) and we are already in for $2,500,000 before we start building those lovely lots (which cost an additional 2.5mil or so I'd guess) . Not too mention the loss of entertainment, an interesting landscape, and a Tulsa icon.
Sickening.....
[xx(] This just furthers my now-deep-seeded hatred for Randi Miller.
I voted for the River proposition even though I hated her. Someone needs to take a large "Wack-a-Mole" hammer to the County Commissioners' heads.
[xx(][B)][xx(]
quote:
Originally posted by DScott28604
[xx(][B)][xx(]
Dude, perfect portrait of the County Comission.
[:P]
quote:
Originally posted by Townsend
Other than that, the parking lot is lovely.
Post of the week!
Was that Robby and Bob Bell grabbing their ankles out in the middle of that parking lot?
Yes it does look better. So glad all that filthy eyesore is gone.
Thank goodness for Viva 2025!!!!!!!
[:o)][:D][^]
On another note...
Why do I have to pay a $2 service fee when I go to events in the new QT Expo?
Is there a reason that the corporate sponsorship suddenly resulted in new fees?
quote:
Originally posted by DScott28604
[xx(] This just furthers my now-deep-seeded hatred for Randi Miller.
I voted for the River proposition even though I hated her. Someone needs to take a large "Wack-a-Mole" hammer to the County Commissioners' heads.
[xx(][B)][xx(]
Bates lives in her district. Draft Bates.
quote:
Originally posted by TeeDub
On another note...
Why do I have to pay a $2 service fee when I go to events in the new QT Expo?
Is there a reason that the corporate sponsorship suddenly resulted in new fees?
Hmm, come to think of it gun show admission was $12 this last time. I wondered about the sudden $2 jump from before the holidays.
Where is the The Randi Miller Memorial Parking Lot signage? I heard it's going to be nice.
quote:
Originally posted by Townsend
Wasn't there supposed to be some sort of beer garden and tiger/lion display?
I could give a crap about the tigers and lions but don't dangle beer gardens in front of me just to yank 'em away.
Other than that, the parking lot is lovely.
Lions and Tigers and Beers, oh my!
quote:
Originally posted by Breadburner
Sickening.....
Yes. It is sickening that the death trap also known as Bell's was allowed to stay in operation for as long as it did.
Tulsa World -- Wildcat Material Faulted By Brian Barber
10/25/1997
State investigators have identified the use of an
"inappropriate" material on the Wildcat roller coaster at Bell's
Amusement Park as the cause of last spring's fatal accident and
said park officials are ultimately responsible for the tragedy.
"Bell's personnel substituted the plastic material used by the
Wildcat's manufacturer with a plastic which is not recommended for
use in an anti-rollback device," Oklahoma Labor Commissioner Brenda
Reneau said Friday.
The ride car, which carried Patrick Kurek, 14, to his death, had
only one safety device, and that device was dependent upon a
material called Nylatron, Reneau said.
"This inappropriately brittle material, inadequate for resisting
impact loads, shattered, rendering the anti-rollback incapable of
preventing the accident," she said.
Five other people were injured April 20, when the ride car
carrying Kurek slid backward down the incline and into another car.
The Nylatron insert in the anti-rollback device shattered when it
was supposed to have caught on a groove to prevent the car from
rolling backward.
quote:
Originally posted by BierGarten
quote:
Originally posted by Breadburner
Sickening.....
Yes. It is sickening that the death trap also known as Bell's was allowed to stay in operation for as long as it did.
Tulsa World -- Wildcat Material Faulted
By Brian Barber
10/25/1997
State investigators have identified the use of an
"inappropriate" material on the Wildcat roller coaster at Bell's
Amusement Park as the cause of last spring's fatal accident and
said park officials are ultimately responsible for the tragedy.
"Bell's personnel substituted the plastic material used by the
Wildcat's manufacturer with a plastic which is not recommended for
use in an anti-rollback device," Oklahoma Labor Commissioner Brenda
Reneau said Friday.
The ride car, which carried Patrick Kurek, 14, to his death, had
only one safety device, and that device was dependent upon a
material called Nylatron, Reneau said.
"This inappropriately brittle material, inadequate for resisting
impact loads, shattered, rendering the anti-rollback incapable of
preventing the accident," she said.
Five other people were injured April 20, when the ride car
carrying Kurek slid backward down the incline and into another car.
The Nylatron insert in the anti-rollback device shattered when it
was supposed to have caught on a groove to prevent the car from
rolling backward.
1997?
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by BierGarten
quote:
Originally posted by Breadburner
Sickening.....
Yes. It is sickening that the death trap also known as Bell's was allowed to stay in operation for as long as it did.
Tulsa World -- Wildcat Material Faulted
By Brian Barber
10/25/1997
1997?
Yes. If you have ten minutes, reading all of the articles written about this death, the civil lawsuits regarding the incident and the contemplated criminal charges that were eventually not brought against Bells, it is a fascinating story.
The Wildcat death was an accident, a lesson was learned, the Bell family settled with Kurek's family without putting them through a lengthy and painful civil suit. Seeing that no criminal charges were ever brought, that pretty much means the DA did not find enough evidence of any malicious or intentional willful neglect. The Bells were stand-up people throughout.
What the stories failed to relate was that Kurek did not heed safety warnings and was acting like a jackass bouncing up and down and backwards and forwards in the car putting strain on the stopping device for which it was not originally designed. That was a contributing factor to the wrong material being used in the device.
Another thing which was largely ignored by the media is Clark Brewster, the same Clark Brewster who voted to boot Bell's off the Fairgrounds, was the Kurek's attorney.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
The Wildcat death was an accident, a lesson was learned, the Bell family settled with Kurek's family without putting them through a lengthy and painful civil suit. Seeing that no criminal charges were ever brought, that pretty much means the DA did not find enough evidence of any malicious or intentional willful neglect. The Bells were stand-up people throughout.
What the stories failed to relate was that Kurek did not heed safety warnings and was acting like a jackass bouncing up and down and backwards and forwards in the car putting strain on the stopping device for which it was not originally designed. That was a contributing factor to the wrong material being used in the device.
Another thing which was largely ignored by the media is Clark Brewster, the same Clark Brewster who voted to boot Bell's off the Fairgrounds, was the Kurek's attorney.
I suppose there is not much one can say to a person that feels its okay to refer to a fourteen year old deceased individual from our community as a jackass.
I can say this, contrary to your above espousement, an insurance company does not settle a lawsuit out of the benevolence of their heart. I have trouble believing that you actually believe that they settled the case out of concern of dragging the family through a "lengthy and painful civil suit". That's just silly.
I don't know anything about the kid who died on that ride. But if someone WAS acting like a jackass would it be OK to refer to them as such or if someone dies must we refrain from speaking the truth (he did not say the kid was a jackass, said he was 'acting' like a jackass, as teenagers often do). On top of all of that, did Bell's manufacture the failed device that was made of inadequate materials or did they just operate it? Is everyone that drove kids in a Ford temple a horrible monster too because they were ultimately adjudicated inadequate for the job? Not that this issue really has anything to do with the current situation as having an "inadequate business plan" was the reason given for the closure - not "killed a kid 10 years ago."
Back on point- you're saying we should close all business that are found liable for an accidental death and turn them into parking lots by lying about our intentions to put something more than a parking lot in it's place? Cintas had an accidental death last year, parking lot. Tons of oil fields have accidental deaths. A kid just died at a rodeo not far from here last month. Parking lots. A boy died playing paint ball in Tulsa last year, how do we pave over that one?
Bier: It is clear you have some other problem with Bells. If you knew the kid that died, if you once got fired from there, if you really like Randi Miller... whatever the case is you'd do better to just say what it is than pretend this pretense had anything to do with the paving of Bells. If you look back I was skeptical of Robby Bell's argument at the time and still am, but we KNOW Randi Miller lied when she said it wasn't going to just be a parking lot.
And after all, what are we going to do if some kid gets accidentally killed in this vast parking lot?
quote:
Originally posted by BierGarten
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
The Wildcat death was an accident, a lesson was learned, the Bell family settled with Kurek's family without putting them through a lengthy and painful civil suit. Seeing that no criminal charges were ever brought, that pretty much means the DA did not find enough evidence of any malicious or intentional willful neglect. The Bells were stand-up people throughout.
What the stories failed to relate was that Kurek did not heed safety warnings and was acting like a jackass bouncing up and down and backwards and forwards in the car putting strain on the stopping device for which it was not originally designed. That was a contributing factor to the wrong material being used in the device.
Another thing which was largely ignored by the media is Clark Brewster, the same Clark Brewster who voted to boot Bell's off the Fairgrounds, was the Kurek's attorney.
I suppose there is not much one can say to a person that feels its okay to refer to a fourteen year old deceased individual from our community as a jackass.
I can say this, contrary to your above espousement, an insurance company does not settle a lawsuit out of the benevolence of their heart. I have trouble believing that you actually believe that they settled the case out of concern of dragging the family through a "lengthy and painful civil suit". That's just silly.
I've known Robby Bell for over 25 years. It's not wild speculation on my part as to the how and why it settled.
The Bells carried more than the statutory minimum liability and had say in their insurance company entering a settlement rather than going to trial. The Bells were truly remorseful about the incident. It made them sick.
I didn't say he was a jackass I said he was acting like one when the accident happened. I'm sure he was a great kid and no amount of money will ever make the family whole again.
D'oh:
"Rep. Richard Phillips, R-Warr Acres, questioned the requirement cap for liability insurance for amusement parks, which must total at least $300,000. He said that is a low limit, especially in cases such this one that result in the deaths of children.
Kurek (Kurek's father) noted that Bell's liability was covered by insurance above the minimum. However, he said that because the case has been settled, he could not go into specifics.
He said he settled because he feared industry attorneys would have tried to attach blame to the boys, because that has occurred in similar cases."
I don't know Mr. Bell nor the deceased. I never said that any entity that has an accidental death should be closed down. I used the death as one reason behind the fact that I could really care less that Bell's got the boot.
I did not follow the Randi Miller saga; however, I would rather a surface parking lot a million times over what Bell's was.
The fact that Bell's is gone means that Tulsa is now a good market for the construction of a new theme park.
Really? Then why has there been no serious talk about a new park fter more than a year of no Bells? If we get a "new" amusement park it will probably be Bells part II... mostly the same equipment, same owner, but now set up in a suburb.
Sorry Bier, I started ahead of the game on the name alone. But the only reason you have given for disliking Bell's is the dead kid. You have now added the prospect of getting a new park to your reasoning - but it is not a proper role of the county to force an existing Tulsa owned business to close in the hopes of someone else coming to open one (how would you like them to close your business in the same hope?).
Bells provided entertainment and revenue. The value of Bell's the county can be quantified at $2,000,000 (see my 3rd post above). We paid $500,000 to give away that $2,000,000 in order to pay to construct a parking lot that sits empty 325+ days a year.
To sell this idea to the public Randi Miller claimed the business model of Bells was a failure and if we did not close it we would have to pay to do so when they went bankrupt. Well, Bell's had proof of a credit line and plans of expansion in the form of a new steel roller coaster AND we ended up paying to close it anyway. She further said that the area would not just be surface parking - which it is.
So I call Bull.
Even if you were not a fan of Bells (I was not either, I thought it was run down and generally did not appeal to me), the manner in which the county handled this indicates a complete lack of respect for business owners and citizens. They screwed the Bell's out of their company, shut down a Tulsa landmark, and lied to the citizens about the reasons for their actions, the costs of doing so, and the end result.
If nothing else, agree that those are examples of a failure in government. And that is what I am mad about, not the simple loss of Bell's Amusement Park.
I think we all agree that the park was run down and needed work.
I'm very skeptical of the county's decision that Bell's wasn't viable as they had just been approved for a loan to build a new rollercoaster and I would far more trust a bank to evaluate Bell's prospects over a documented liar in Randi Miller. The Murphy's campaign donation to Randi makes this stink even more as it provides motive to Randi wanting Bell's out and gives the glaring appearance of a payoff.
Wouldn't everyone have been happier (and the county richer) if instead of deciding arbitrarily and probably unfairly that the Bell's wasn't going to make it and spend a ton of taxpayer money to get rid of them, not to mention losing all possible revenue from rent in the future if they had written into the new lease specific performance requirements with regards to upgrades and appearance? Would that not have left everyone in the entire community except the Murphy's happier?
If that would have happened the Bell family would still have a business, the city of Tulsa would still have an important attraction in an amusement park, the county would not have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to remove Bells and hundreds of thousands of dollars more to build an unneeded parking lot and would still be receiving hundreds of thousands of dollars in rent. On what planet does any of that make sense?
Plus, I blame the failure of the river tax to a large degree on the Bell's fiasco.
If Randi Miller is involved in something, it's tainted from the word go. I don't trust her as far as I could move the IPE Building with my bare hands.
The woman is a disgrace to Tulsa.
quote:
Originally posted by T-Town Now
If Randi Miller is involved in something, it's tainted from the word go. I don't trust her as far as I could move the IPE Building with my bare hands.
The woman is a disgrace to Tulsa.
i dunno, KK gives her a run for her money on that title.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by T-Town Now
If Randi Miller is involved in something, it's tainted from the word go. I don't trust her as far as I could move the IPE Building with my bare hands.
The woman is a disgrace to Tulsa.
i dunno, KK gives her a run for her money on that title.
Who?
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
the manner in which the county handled this indicates a complete lack of respect for business owners and citizens. They screwed the Bell's out of their company, shut down a Tulsa landmark, and lied to the citizens about the reasons for their actions, the costs of doing so, and the end result.
Excellent summary. The county must be proud.
Backtracking a bit, how does the accident on the roller coaster differ from the accident on the collapsing water slide (other than one was a fatality)?
Is the answer "One donated to a re-election, and the other is now a parking lot"?
quote:
Originally posted by swake
Plus, I blame the failure of the river tax to a large degree on the Bell's fiasco.
Swake, I think that had a fair amount to do with it, that could have been 10 to 15% of the vote, I dunno.
I for one am someone who definitely looked at the River proposal with more of a critical eye due to the way the county ****ed the Bells like a tied goat. Too much mystery in both instances with the same instigator (or at least, instigator of record).
How on earth does the county claim a company has a flawed business plan when there were apparently commercial lenders prepared to loan Bell's up to $750K for a new ride the year they got shut down, they had just added about $700K in new rides and it sounded as if financing the multi-million $$ new roller coaster wasn't a problem either.
Lenders willing to lend money and having a viable business plan are not one in the same thing. Unless you know how the loan was to be collateralized, you can't say the two have much to do with each other.
For example, and I'm not saying this was the case, the contemplated loan may have been collateralized in first position on Bell's other rides that were together worth more than the loan itself. A bank isn't taking much risk if they know they can sell their collateral easily and cover their loan principle. Of course, a bank would much rather the debtor service the debt.
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by T-Town Now
If Randi Miller is involved in something, it's tainted from the word go. I don't trust her as far as I could move the IPE Building with my bare hands.
The woman is a disgrace to Tulsa.
i dunno, KK gives her a run for her money on that title.
Who?
People who dislike Kathy Taylor like to abbreviate her names with KK to stand for Krazy Kathy. That right there accomplishes a LOT, let me tell 'ya. [xx(] I support the mayor. I don't, however, support Randi Miller. Except maybe as an experiment to see if she has a brain...
Why in the hell do they need more parking? They could have made the site into a commercial area or attempted to attract a new amusement park tenant. Personally, I would have put in a park with Coney Island themed rides, with restaurants and small retailers fronting the street. It would be nice if restaurants and retailers were within walking/tram ride/sky ride distance of the rest of Expo Square. Our county government is completely devoid of creativity or the concept of opportunity cost. If they want to waste their own land, screw 'em. We'll all be watching by as the fairgrounds continues to lose every reason people ever went to it: Bell's, The Drillers, and the 66ers, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by BierGarten
Lenders willing to lend money and having a viable business plan are not one in the same thing. Unless you know how the loan was to be collateralized, you can't say the two have much to do with each other.
I gave you 5 or 6 things that troubled me about the proposition, including overt lies to the voters. And you come back with "maybe it wasn't viable." So what?
The only reason that was relevant was because it enabled the county a pretense to annul the contract and boot them. Supposedly because not doing so would later cost the county hundreds of thousands of dollars to evict them. WHICH WE SPENT ANYWAY!!!
So what, in the hell, did we gain?
$2,000,000 in revenue lost
$500,000 to move them out
Loss of entertainment
Closed a locally owned business
Loss of a landmark (driving by the Zingo was just cool)
We gained a parking lot that is empty 90% of the time.
Please, take some detail and explain your position. Thus far you are just picking at the periphery of the issue. SOMETHING has to exist to make you think all of the above is worth less than a parking lot, that is is OK for politicians to lie, and that the behavior was OK and thus far you have not told me what it is. At this point, I'm just assuming you had something against Bell's or have a connection to another party involved and thus writing off your unsupported position (sorry).
Too bad Expo Square wasn't within city limits when that parking lot was paved. The County might have met minimal landscaping requirements instead of just laying down a solid slab.
quote:
Originally posted by BierGarten
Lenders willing to lend money and having a viable business plan are not one in the same thing. Unless you know how the loan was to be collateralized, you can't say the two have much to do with each other.
For example, and I'm not saying this was the case, the contemplated loan may have been collateralized in first position on Bell's other rides that were together worth more than the loan itself. A bank isn't taking much risk if they know they can sell their collateral easily and cover their loan principle. Of course, a bank would much rather the debtor service the debt.
Lenders don't want to be in the carnival ride business. They wouldn't have touched it based on collateral alone- that's not sane lending in the first place, with the possible exception of doing real estate loans at 50% of appraisal. That's what's called a "make it and hope they don't pay" loan.
Not as easy to flip carnival rides as other carnival companies aren't going to pay a bank a premium for repo'd rides. If Bell's couldn't cash flow out the debt service, they would not have had the commitment.
I've always wanted somewhere to park my car
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by BierGarten
quote:
Originally posted by Breadburner
Sickening.....
Yes. It is sickening that the death trap also known as Bell's was allowed to stay in operation for as long as it did.
Tulsa World -- Wildcat Material Faulted
By Brian Barber
10/25/1997
State investigators have identified the use of an
"inappropriate" material on the Wildcat roller coaster at Bell's
Amusement Park as the cause of last spring's fatal accident and
said park officials are ultimately responsible for the tragedy.
"Bell's personnel substituted the plastic material used by the
Wildcat's manufacturer with a plastic which is not recommended for
use in an anti-rollback device," Oklahoma Labor Commissioner Brenda
Reneau said Friday.
The ride car, which carried Patrick Kurek, 14, to his death, had
only one safety device, and that device was dependent upon a
material called Nylatron, Reneau said.
"This inappropriately brittle material, inadequate for resisting
impact loads, shattered, rendering the anti-rollback incapable of
preventing the accident," she said.
Five other people were injured April 20, when the ride car
carrying Kurek slid backward down the incline and into another car.
The Nylatron insert in the anti-rollback device shattered when it
was supposed to have caught on a groove to prevent the car from
rolling backward.
1997?
I played baseball with Pat for several years and his dad was my baseball coach for 2 of them. Very sad to hear that news. I was 15 at the time and it made me realize life is too short and enjoy it while you still can. He may have been acting like a jackass, we all do crazy stuff as teenagers, but he didnt deserve to die because of it. Think back to your teenage years, did you ever do anything that could be construed as "acting like a jackass"?
quote:
Originally posted by TUalum0982
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by BierGarten
quote:
Originally posted by Breadburner
Sickening.....
Yes. It is sickening that the death trap also known as Bell's was allowed to stay in operation for as long as it did.
Tulsa World -- Wildcat Material Faulted
By Brian Barber
10/25/1997
State investigators have identified the use of an
"inappropriate" material on the Wildcat roller coaster at Bell's
Amusement Park as the cause of last spring's fatal accident and
said park officials are ultimately responsible for the tragedy.
"Bell's personnel substituted the plastic material used by the
Wildcat's manufacturer with a plastic which is not recommended for
use in an anti-rollback device," Oklahoma Labor Commissioner Brenda
Reneau said Friday.
The ride car, which carried Patrick Kurek, 14, to his death, had
only one safety device, and that device was dependent upon a
material called Nylatron, Reneau said.
"This inappropriately brittle material, inadequate for resisting
impact loads, shattered, rendering the anti-rollback incapable of
preventing the accident," she said.
Five other people were injured April 20, when the ride car
carrying Kurek slid backward down the incline and into another car.
The Nylatron insert in the anti-rollback device shattered when it
was supposed to have caught on a groove to prevent the car from
rolling backward.
1997?
I played baseball with Pat for several years and his dad was my baseball coach for 2 of them. Very sad to hear that news. I was 15 at the time and it made me realize life is too short and enjoy it while you still can. He may have been acting like a jackass, we all do crazy stuff as teenagers, but he didnt deserve to die because of it. Think back to your teenage years, did you ever do anything that could be construed as "acting like a jackass"?
No actually.
I wholeheartedly agree that he did not deserve to die because of his actions. No teenager or person of any age deserves to die for acting like a goof or even a jackass. I acted the part plenty of times in my life.
My point was only in relation to using that accident as an excuse to close Bell's.
I acted like a jackass as a teen, and well, probably haven't outgrown it entirely if you ask others on here. [;)] It's probably somewhere around a miracle that I'm even still alive after things I've done in my youth and young adulthood.
No, Pat did not deserve to die, and it was a terrible tragedy. No one intentionally killed him. Bell's made an error. They stepped up and did all they could do in taking accountability for it.
No amount of money would/will ever fill the hole left in the Kurek's life afterwards. This was horrible for everyone involved.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
quote:
Originally posted by BierGarten
Lenders willing to lend money and having a viable business plan are not one in the same thing. Unless you know how the loan was to be collateralized, you can't say the two have much to do with each other.
I gave you 5 or 6 things that troubled me about the proposition, including overt lies to the voters. And you come back with "maybe it wasn't viable." So what?
The only reason that was relevant was because it enabled the county a pretense to annul the contract and boot them. Supposedly because not doing so would later cost the county hundreds of thousands of dollars to evict them. WHICH WE SPENT ANYWAY!!!
So what, in the hell, did we gain?
$2,000,000 in revenue lost
$500,000 to move them out
Loss of entertainment
Closed a locally owned business
Loss of a landmark (driving by the Zingo was just cool)
We gained a parking lot that is empty 90% of the time.
Please, take some detail and explain your position. Thus far you are just picking at the periphery of the issue. SOMETHING has to exist to make you think all of the above is worth less than a parking lot, that is is OK for politicians to lie, and that the behavior was OK and thus far you have not told me what it is. At this point, I'm just assuming you had something against Bell's or have a connection to another party involved and thus writing off your unsupported position (sorry).
Okay. I'll take the arguments you have made one by one.
We lost a Tulsa landmark. Yes, we did, a really crappy one.
We were lied to. I will take your word as to that one. I don't care. Man, if I got mad every time a politician lied I would be miserable.
The county lost revenue (even worse, paid money to lose revenue). Sometimes it costs something to gain something. In this case, we gained getting rid of a really crappy amusement park. Thank you county.
The county screwed a local business. I might be wrong on this one, but didn't the county simply not renew a lease? Isn't that just a simple business choice? A tenant without a contractual right to renew has no grounds to complain when their lease isn't renewed. Again, maybe it was more than a lease not being renewed, I am sure you will correct if I'm wrong.
I think it really comes down to the fact that I am not moved by any of your arguments which probably stems from the fact that I thought it was a crappy business, a crappy park and had no real belief that a new roller coaster was going to change the way that business had been run for many years.
BG- logical points and you are not in a minority, AFAIK. Bell's had started renovating rides, had added new attractions, and were adding more. They were trying to put money back into the park. It's a shame they did let it get as dingy as it was before starting to renovate it.
One glaring mistake I can see they made was not charging a higher gate admission and turning it into an all-inclusive ride admission. I think that would have raised gross revenues and kept out the gangsta riff-raff. But, they wanted all families to be able to afford to come to the park and enjoy it.
One area I will dispute with you is this was not exactly a simple non-renewal of a lease. There were several million dollars in fixed assets which had to be destroyed. Concrete foundations, electrical lines and boxes, rides which were built in like Zingo. There was a lot of sweat equity and money which was uncerimoniously broken up and hauled off.
None of that really hit home with me till a week or so before they were finally off the property and I had seen Bob Bell and chatted with him briefly on the site one day. Putting myself in their position, that was a pretty devastating loss for them.
Well, this is the first time I have had to disagree with a BierGarten.
1. Bell's was not in good shape. Given, but the Statue of Liberty was falling apart in the early 1990's too.
2. I will not write passes for lying simply because all politicians do it.
3. I do not thinking paying $2.5 million to get rid of Bell's was a significant gain. Nearly universally I see surface parking as a loss.
4. The lease had provision that allowed it not to be renewed. The county played by the rules. But at the end of the day they canceled a lease that had been around for 50 years and shut down a local business because they didn't like it. To me, that's screwing them.
You didn't like Bell's and did not care what lies or costs were involved with destroying it. I understand your perspective but I can not agree with it, but thanks for clarifying. I still plan on trying to get an answer from Randi on her statements.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Well, this is the first time I have had to disagree with a BierGarten.
1. Bell's was not in good shape. Given, but the Statue of Liberty was falling apart in the early 1990's too.
2. I will not write passes for lying simply because all politicians do it.
3. I do not thinking paying $2.5 million to get rid of Bell's was a significant gain. Nearly universally I see surface parking as a loss.
4. The lease had provision that allowed it not to be renewed. The county played by the rules. But at the end of the day they canceled a lease that had been around for 50 years and shut down a local business because they didn't like it. To me, that's screwing them.
You didn't like Bell's and did not care what lies or costs were involved with destroying it. I understand your perspective but I can not agree with it, but thanks for clarifying. I still plan on trying to get an answer from Randi on her statements.
You also left out the conflict-of-interest of one of the Fair Board members being the plaintiff's attorney in the Wildcat death and did not recuse himself from voting on nor making public comments about Bell's being tossed. That left me every bit as crispy as Ms. Miller's actions.
#^%!$@#$@#!@
How can these a**holes do this to Tulsa and have ABSOLUTELY NO CONSEQUENCES?! The Bells fiasco is a complete outrage. I don't know much about the local government here I admit, but this has to be the most visibly obscene corruption, confusion, and abuse of power I have seen in a while.
I guess I might as well throw my 2 cents in here as well.
I've said this time and time again - Bell's wasn't up to it's top condition at the end simply because it was preparing to undergo a massive re-hab project that would have re-built the park completely. Have we forgotten that they were readying to break ground on the largest roller coaster in the state? The mini-golf course that so many people point to as a sign of Bell's decay was left to rot because a roller coaster was supposed to take it's place - because it took so long to get the proper permissions all worked out, it got pretty crappy. It wasn't because Bell's was a craptacular park - it was always fairly clean and well maintained compared to most parks in the nation of the same size.
Bell's was kicked out because they were about to re-build themselves, and in doing so they would have taken a large slice out the the Murphy's pie - it all adds up.
About the accident - yeah, it was horrible, a terrible fault that was pretty surely Bell's fault. Yet, accidents happen all over the amusement industry: have we forgotten the 3 accidents that happened on a roller coaster of the same model during the 2007 state fair? Bell's deserved to pay dearly for their fault, which I guess they did, seeing as it was settled out...
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by T-Town Now
If Randi Miller is involved in something, it's tainted from the word go. I don't trust her as far as I could move the IPE Building with my bare hands.
The woman is a disgrace to Tulsa.
i dunno, KK gives her a run for her money on that title.
Mayor Taylor is so much better than the LaFlamingIdiot who preceded her in office, I must have a much higher tolerance level for what she does, because she doesn't bother me 1/10th as much as the guy who always looked like he slept in his clothes...on the street somewhere.
OK, well I decided to cut to the chase and just email Randi Miller to get her side of the story. It's only fair. To her credit she emailed me back with "Please call me at ***-**** to discuss these matters whenever you have the time."
So over lunch today, I did.
She was forthcoming, polite, and generous with her time and went into all kinds of ancillary topics. Including some politic-ing about how the Fair/Expo Authority is run and what she has done to improve operations. She was shooting from the hip and I was scribbling as she talked, so any quotes are approximations.
From Randi Miller, not my opinion on the matter but what I was told. I think it is a pretty honest assessment of the conversation.
- - -
She was not the spearhead on the ouster. The Expo Authority had an accountant look over the Business Plan (which she was VERY careful not to discuss or even insinuate anything on) and the accountant was not satisfied with it. It was then presented to the County who had the county CFO do the same - and it failed to satisfy them. It then went to a committee to determine an action.
She was but one person on that committee. Not the head. The County was concerned about both the appearance and safety of the amusement park in conjunction with what was reported to them as a sub-par business plan. Slated with maintaining the safety, aesthetics, and well being of the County property they decided they should cancel the lease. (later she commented that at neighborhood meetings people often brought noise and minor crime complaints because of Bells, then it's gone and those same neighbors are sad)
When it went public no one from the committee wanted to speak on camera. Feeling that someone had to fill everyone in she assumed the role. She was speaking as a member of the committee and not FOR the committee. But, in spite of the quote starting this thread - there never was a plan for that land and she said currently "it is just a parking lot."
A committee will be formed to determine a future course for Expo Square - as of yet there is no plan for that parking lot but presumably there are long term goals. The Drillers will probably leave she conceded - and stated that she didn't think it was proper for the County to compete with private enterprise nor the city of Tulsa to maintain the Drillers. The 66ers are leaving and she said they have had a good relationship too, but they got a better offer. So the Authority is considering many options for Expo Square.
Ms. Miller believes that the business plan, if released, would calm many peoples concerns (this point was reiterated). In the future all County Contracts involving fixed assets on County land will have a clause requiring a business plan that can be released to the public to avoid this problem. Repeatedly she said she was sorry to see Bell's go and it was "very hard for her."
I asked how the County ended up paying some of the removal fees. On that note she explained that to purchase the sky ride they had to clear certain other assets of liens (I was left to assume that meant helping remove them physically, though I was left unclear on this point). The purchase of the sky ride was proposed by Robby Bell and was based in part on the difficulty (or futility) of moving it and a belief that it would be an asset to the County.
She was devote in insisting that she wanted Bell's to stay and had conversation to that effect with Robby and his dad. Ms. Miller said she understood why people were upset. She said that if they wanted to reopen somewhere she would help them if she could.
- - -
In other areas:
- She hinted that Big Splash is being encouraged to make capital investments
- The fiber optics on the IPE building (AKA QT Center) are broken. They got water damage just out of warranty and the contractor that installed them went bankrupt. They tried to get the sub-contractor to help with it but have been unsuccessful. Cost to repair them looks to be $150,000 and she hopes to get that done in the future. (we both liked them)
- Work is behind and they are hurrying to get it done for the Arabian horse show. They are expected to have a $40mil impact (Chili Bowl x 2) on the economy but are "very demanding"
- She is committed to working to keep the Chili Bowl at Expo in Tulsa (neighbors complain, growing pains, etc)
- The horse track needs some upgrade work
- They do not yet know what they will do with the Driller's stadium if/when the Drillers leave (she seems supportive of the downtown concept but said it's hard to be critical of private development anywhere in the county... Jenks I presume).
After all of that, I never got a real explanation on why she insinuated that there was a plan above and beyond just a parking lot - when all we have is just a parking lot. But I did not press the issue. I assume she is alluding to the future committee that might do something (which I doubt since we just built a parking lot).
BUT, in any event, she was very generous with her time and answered all my questions . We spoke for over 30 minutes and she was concern with MY time. In my book that goes a long way, so thank you (if you happen to read this). But I still wish it would have gone down differently.
For you newbies who have not seen it, I did manage to get a bootleg copy of the Bell's business plan:
(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/TN/bidnessplan.jpg)
Oh, and here's a blog entry with more details if folks are interested
http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&entryID=41863675&groupID=106568103&adTopicID=16&Mytoken=2F4E24EE-AE29-48B9-B8F8F60B297C5C89973262
Interesting points Conan:
1. No business plan required for Big Splash
2. First Dibs on Bell's land
3. Donations to the decision makers who eliminated competition and freed up space for them
I did not know it was that devious seeming. I assumed a business plan was required of all tenants, especially since "making them public" was a point of emphasis. I guess the next contract will have that clause in it, which presumably will include Big Splash.
Did she mention when the Big Splash contract was up and when we could see the business plan?
Also, I wouldn't mind seeing where the naming rights and all the advertising revenues are going. (Advertising being all the tacky signs being put up in and around all the buildings.)
Randi Miller saying she's "She was but one person on that committee" is maybe technically true. But is in reality is a load of crap.
Here's what the Tulsa County Public Facilities Authority is:
The Tulsa County Public Facilities authority (TCPFA) is a public trust established in accordance with Oklahoma law. It has the sole purpose of managing all activity occurring on certain property (commonly known as the Tulsa County fairgrounds) which is owned by Tulsa County but leased to the TCPFA. The TCPFA has a five member governing board: the three county commissioners and two private citizens who are appointed by the commissioners.
http://www.tulsacounty.org/agenda/agendasdetail.asp?Title=TCPFA%20-%20Tulsa%20County%20Public%20Facilities%20Authority
She is not only a member, she's a Tulsa County Commissioner, and as such has an automatic seat on the board and also (with the other commissioners) appoints the two non-commissioner members of the board. She also is Chairman of the County Commission. As such she is the most powerful person on the county commission and on the fair board. She most certainly is NOT "but one person" on the committee if the board was to vote a way she didn't like, she can change the membership of the board.
And remember, the Murphy's made contributions to TWO county commissioners' campaigns. John Smaligo also got $5,000. That's enough to get the vote to go their way because even if the vote on the board was 3-2 against, in the county commission the vote would be 2-1 to replace those two dissenting votes.
More here:
http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A16859
Another less-than-perfect business plan?
PARK CITY, Kan. (AP) - A Tulsa, Okla., carnival company apparently defaults on its $2 million offer to buy the defunct Wild West World and now a Wichita businessman has the city's blessing to buy the property.
The Park City Council held an emergency meeting Wednesday and unanimously approved a letter of intent to issue up to $5 million in industrial revenue bonds to Wink Hartman. Hartman has offered $2 million to buy the land and develop it.
Tulsa-based Spectacular Attractions had asked for a 60-day extension to complete its financing package to buy the amusement park. But the park's consortium of lenders objected to the extension.
Park City officials say the the offer by Spectacular Attractions, headed by businessman Jerry Murphy, defaulted at 5 p.m. Wednesday.
quote:
Originally posted by patric
Another less-than-perfect business plan?
PARK CITY, Kan. (AP) - A Tulsa, Okla., carnival company apparently defaults on its $2 million offer to buy the defunct Wild West World and now a Wichita businessman has the city's blessing to buy the property.
The Park City Council held an emergency meeting Wednesday and unanimously approved a letter of intent to issue up to $5 million in industrial revenue bonds to Wink Hartman. Hartman has offered $2 million to buy the land and develop it.
Tulsa-based Spectacular Attractions had asked for a 60-day extension to complete its financing package to buy the amusement park. But the park's consortium of lenders objected to the extension.
Park City officials say the the offer by Spectacular Attractions, headed by businessman Jerry Murphy, defaulted at 5 p.m. Wednesday.
Typical Murphy BS job. We need to boot his donkey out of town for good!
Did Bell's default on any obligations to the City before they were declare unfit and booted?
Does the city have Big Splash's business plan yet? Miller said she was going to require one when the lease was renewed...
I'm not anti Big Splash, but it looks more and more like political shenanigans did Bells in.
Why was Murphy Brothers given a ten year, no-bid contract for the state fair midway two months before Bell's was booted?
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
Why was Murphy Brothers given a ten year, no-bid contract for the state fair midway two months before Bell's was booted?
Because Jerry is in bed with Randi.
Make an Open Records Request and see what happens.
Someone ought to see if a 60 Minutes or 20/20 type expose show needs something to sink their teeth into.
I too am unamused at Miller's comments, however much they are cleaned up nowadays. The facts of the matter are still that Bell's was the top dog of the fairgrounds, pulling in more money than everyone else combined even in down years. They weren't a shiny operation, and they had plenty of problems with the way they ran their business - but they were successful and they were growing and expanding. Hearing over and over again that their business plan was unacceptable just blows my mind. I love how she noted that Big Splash was encouraged to improve their business, but what have they done in the past 20 years? They painted their slides and upgraded a bit of equipment after someone almost died. What a plan. If Bell's owned Big Splash, they'd have slides hanging over the highway by now.
Anyone heard from the Bell's by any chance? It is odd that they haven't gotten the ball rolling on Bell's 2.0 yet when they've been given so many great offers. Nothing has been sold off yet, so I assume it's still in the works. I assume the family just isn't in the right place to move forward with it yet.