As I drive down Harvard I notice more and more of the character giving retail from 11th to 31st going bare. Nearly that entire length Harvard is covered on both sides by small retail shops that, when I moved here 5 years ago, seemed to be doing well.
Lets start at 11th and migrate South:
1) The payday loans building. It is occupied, but probably is not desirable.
2) On the other side of the street Saphron has been out of business for a while now. It was a nice little coffee shop but with a coffee shop on campus the students largely stayed away, why local high school kids didn't hang out I don't know. It remains empty but under renovation apparently.
3) The cool art deco office building next to get has changed hands several times. I think it is somewhat occupied now but sparsely if that.
4) Many of the offices above Quizno's are empty.
5) The bead store before Big Als has closed.
6) At 21st the electronics store building has long been empty (as has the Ron's Hamburger just down 21st)
7) A couple spots in that little strip mall are barren
8) On the left, one of the "house/office" buildings is now empty and for sale
9) The "Ace Hardward" store remains empty.
10) Back on the right one of the antique stores is going out of business (nearish-QT)
11) at 21st and Harvard the large old drug store remains empty
12) Just after Brownies the office building has vacancies
13) The Medical Arts building back on the left (larger building - 6 stories) has constant vacancies.
14) The strip mall right before the BA has the spot where Subway then Kari Cakes was (the rest is actually occupied by a medical wholesaler though it looks empty)
15) The strip mall at 29th and Harvard is nearly abandoned with a dog groomer and a payday loans the only occupants.
16) Back on the right side Harvard Center has vacanies.
17) The building that houses Dr. Z. and Springer Clinic has spaces available.
That's a rundown in my head in a few minutes. I assume I missed some non-discrete buildings and/or correct me if I'm mistaken.
Anyway, that's a ton of empty structures along a 2 mile stretch of road. Am I just noticing this now or does it seem like it has taken a real beating in the last 5 years? It has me a bit concerned because when the retail and offices start getting abandoned it usually has a detrimental effect on the neighborhoods (or indicates an existing problem).
There are still plenty of GREAT stores and places along Harvard - by no means is it abandoned. Just seems to be a growing problem.
just be glad we have HB1804 or you'd start seeing the illegals hermit crab businesses in those empty shells and plop a ghetto in on yo donkey.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
As I drive down Harvard I notice more and more of the character giving retail from 11th to 31st going bare. Nearly that entire length Harvard is covered on both sides by small retail shops that, when I moved here 5 years ago, seemed to be doing well.
Lets start at 11th and migrate South:
1) The payday loans building. It is occupied, but probably is not desirable.
2) On the other side of the street Saphron has been out of business for a while now. It was a nice little coffee shop but with a coffee shop on campus the students largely stayed away, why local high school kids didn't hang out I don't know. It remains empty but under renovation apparently.
3) The cool art deco office building next to get has changed hands several times. I think it is somewhat occupied now but sparsely if that.
4) Many of the offices above Quizno's are empty.
5) The bead store before Big Als has closed.
6) At 21st the electronics store building has long been empty (as has the Ron's Hamburger just down 21st)
7) A couple spots in that little strip mall are barren
8) On the left, one of the "house/office" buildings is now empty and for sale
9) The "Ace Hardward" store remains empty.
10) Back on the right one of the antique stores is going out of business (nearish-QT)
11) at 21st and Harvard the large old drug store remains empty
12) Just after Brownies the office building has vacancies
13) The Medical Arts building back on the left (larger building - 6 stories) has constant vacancies.
14) The strip mall right before the BA has the spot where Subway then Kari Cakes was (the rest is actually occupied by a medical wholesaler though it looks empty)
15) The strip mall at 29th and Harvard is nearly abandoned with a dog groomer and a payday loans the only occupants.
16) Back on the right side Harvard Center has vacanies.
17) The building that houses Dr. Z. and Springer Clinic has spaces available.
That's a rundown in my head in a few minutes. I assume I missed some non-discrete buildings and/or correct me if I'm mistaken.
Anyway, that's a ton of empty structures along a 2 mile stretch of road. Am I just noticing this now or does it seem like it has taken a real beating in the last 5 years? It has me a bit concerned because when the retail and offices start getting abandoned it usually has a detrimental effect on the neighborhoods (or indicates an existing problem).
There are still plenty of GREAT stores and places along Harvard - by no means is it abandoned. Just seems to be a growing problem.
I've definitely noticed this trend... I live in Florence Park, and I have seen 15th street between the BA and Harvard decline to the point that it's becoming an eyesore.
I don't know what to do to fix any of it. Property owners along there do NOT take care of their properties. They are all run down, the grass rarely gets mowed, etc. I'd like to see 15th street become more like the Cherry Street strip west of Utica, with on-street parking during certain times of day. I think that would help the parking situation, which would help many of these storefronts with minimal parking become much more desirable. I know I hated seeing the hardware store on Harvard leave. The place was a dump, but it sure was convenient. Someone tried to put a car wash in there, but it was successfuly thwarted due to it's location against the neighborhood and across from the school. I think the electronics store at 15th and Harvard is actually something now...it's been cleaned up, but it's not a walk-in oriented business. Saffron is becoming a high end hair salon, which will look nice, but won't do much for liveliness. There is a large population that lives within walking distance of all of this...I don't know what more a business could need... Good thread, I just don't have any major thoughts on it.
That stretch has actually been "low performing" for decades. Its not a "destination node", not enough of anything there to really cause you to go to the stores in that area versus a mile over to 21st yale, Utica Square, 41st Yale, etc. There hasnt been any growth in the area residential wise, aka no infill. So no local population increase to support it. The housing and the stores were built at around the same time, when it was a trendy new corridor on the outskirts of town it could work, now that the growth has shifted outwards to other areas, there isnt the local population or reason to go buy stuff there.
Thats part of the problem with sprawl. If you have a square mile of new homes and an appropriate amount of businesses spring up to support that square mile. At first its fine, young people with new houses and kids buy a lot. But over time, unless the retail node is large enough to be an attraction from a larger area. Two old people in a house full of everything they could possibly need, minus the kids, dont buy that much. The area can suffer unless there is an influx of new people.
Brookside went down hill for decades as well. When it was the new strip, it did well, but then the next new area came along and it became a boarded up strip of run down old buildings. Then it became "hip", more of a destination draw from a larger area than just the population around it could support, with clubs, restaurants, etc. Now its also starting to infill with more businesses and even more living. Same thing with Cherry Street.
I dont think there is any real reason for that strip along Harvard to see such a rennaissance any time soon. There is no reason to go there and since the residential around it is such low density there arent enough people around it to support it. It will probably flounder as it has for quite a while unless it finds a unique niche and or more people "infill" the area.
Low density sprawl can only support so much especially as the population near an area ages, the kids move out, etc. There just isnt as much need or reason to keep the businesses afloat.
I actually couldnt figure out how it was that the 21st and Yale area saw the rebirth it did. Perhaps it became one of those large nodes that is drawing from miles around it. There wasnt enough to support several areas so one area became "king" and the other areas will flounder all the more unless something changes. Either more population around them to support them or a niche service.
Harvard will redevelop. You have a beautiful urban renewal around TU. It will just take time.
Yes, 15th street is dismal between the BA and Harvard. Mom and Pops are all gone. There's still Big Al's and Merrits. Carpet City would be an awesome redo for bar if it were not across from a church.
Is Oz still there?
15th needs a wizard. Merlin perhaps. The Yellow Brick Road is right there.....
Ok, so my wife and I were driving around 15th and Harvard on Saturday, poking around in all the antique stores, and ya know what? There's almost ten of them in less than a square mile. All either on 15th or Harvard. Some are really cruddy junk stores but others are charming and at least one (it's called something like "Mod Furniture" or something, in a pink warehouse) is seriously world class. Add in the scooter store, a couple of vintage clothes places, and a tattoo parlor opening up, and you've got some interesting, edgy stuff going on.
What I'm suggesting is, christen that stretch of road the Antique District or something similar -- Retro Row? -- come up with a logo that you can put on lightpole flags, and market the heck out of it. Go regional, and maybe come up with a street fair in summer to get people there. If you could find a way to spruce up the streetscape -- pull a Cherry St. or Brookside with the sidewalks -- you could have an excellent little area.
There's SO much authentic Americana in Tulsa, I'm a little surprised there haven't been more efforts to capitalize on it from a development standpoint (And yes, I know that 11th st. has commemorative Route 66 pavers. Whoop de doo. It needs benches and fountains and streetlights, too, to make it pay off.)
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
I actually couldnt figure out how it was that the 21st and Yale area saw the rebirth it did. Perhaps it became one of those large nodes that is drawing from miles around it.
It might have something to do with the Reasor's. My theory is that it's the nearest one to the famed northside food desert. You see a different clientele in that Reasor's than you do next door, at Target.
Have never been in that Reasors. Do go to that Target since its the closest to me. And yea, I forget about the little antique stores between 11th and 15th on Harvard. Have found a few "treasures" there myself. I like the "Retro Row" moniker. Not sure if it would be best used along that stretch but somewhere would be nice. Someone should snag it and put it to good use lol.
quote:
Originally posted by we vs us
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
I actually couldnt figure out how it was that the 21st and Yale area saw the rebirth it did. Perhaps it became one of those large nodes that is drawing from miles around it.
It might have something to do with the Reasor's. My theory is that it's the nearest one to the famed northside food desert. You see a different clientele in that Reasor's than you do next door, at Target.
21st and Yale was always a big retail draw, with Sears, Target, and a grocer of some kind. Sears decided to commit to the location, blew up its old store, and replaced it with a modern one. Target renovated, and Reasors took the opportunity to join the big box party.
I don't think that's what we want for the central Harvard corridor. First of all, it's never been exactly chic. It's always had a blue collar feel. And I agree with the suggestion that revitalization is on its way. There's a lot of charm in those two miles of road. Eventually the most dilapidated properties will change hands and renovation will occur. There's too much vitality in the adjacent markets for it to continue to slide--look at the investment TU is making, look at the continued creep of Cherry Street, look at the upward climb of Florence Park property values.
Might be a good spot for form-based codes, though, before adverse generic commercial development robs the strip of remaining charm.
quote:
Originally posted by we vs us
Ok, so my wife and I were driving around 15th and Harvard on Saturday, poking around in all the antique stores, and ya know what? There's almost ten of them in less than a square mile. All either on 15th or Harvard. Some are really cruddy junk stores but others are charming and at least one (it's called something like "Mod Furniture" or something, in a pink warehouse) is seriously world class. Add in the scooter store, a couple of vintage clothes places, and a tattoo parlor opening up, and you've got some interesting, edgy stuff going on.
What I'm suggesting is, christen that stretch of road the Antique District or something similar -- Retro Row? -- come up with a logo that you can put on lightpole flags, and market the heck out of it. Go regional, and maybe come up with a street fair in summer to get people there. If you could find a way to spruce up the streetscape -- pull a Cherry St. or Brookside with the sidewalks -- you could have an excellent little area.
There's SO much authentic Americana in Tulsa, I'm a little surprised there haven't been more efforts to capitalize on it from a development standpoint (And yes, I know that 11th st. has commemorative Route 66 pavers. Whoop de doo. It needs benches and fountains and streetlights, too, to make it pay off.)
When we did that browsing afternoon, I was really surprised that we saw the same group of shoppers over and over at all the different spots - even though it was a car outting and not completely walkable by foot.
Makes me wish I were all community leaderie and a small business owner over there. The bricabrac stores and mod shops could have a weekend "Harvard Yard Sale" in the summer - combine with bands in the parking lot and Jim's Never on Sunday selling gyros from a cart. Raffle off a scooter. Temporary tattoos for the kids. It could be something really cool.
There are older couples in the housing stock that surrounds the area, but families with kids and starter home couples are there, too. They just don't have a reason to think of those stores as anything but what they pass while in their cars on the way to somewhere else.
hahvahd yahd sale
quote:
Originally posted by Townsend
hahvahd yahd sale
Exactly.
---2) On the other side of the street Saphron has been out of business for a while now. It was a nice little coffee shop but with a coffee shop on campus the students largely stayed away, why local high school kids didn't hang out I don't know. It remains empty but under renovation apparently.---
Every time someone says something about this place, I have to remind them that they served crappy food. I went there 4 times and the food sucked all 4 times. I know why they went out of business. Poor service and crappy food.
Sorry, I just had to say something.
Nope, no problem. I agree that the food was nothing special. I had no problems with the service but was there at "off" times. However, I don't expect world class food from small coffee shops. The atmosphere was good, the art was interesting - I would have thought it to be a mild success.
But don't be sorry. I made comment on the merit of any given business along that strip. Just that they were gone.
- - -
+ removed small coffee stand in front of Steve's Sundry.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
+ removed small coffee stand in front of Steve's Sundry.
The CRACK SHACK!!!. That place was great. It was run by a friend of mine.
As far as Harvard businesses going away. Is that just a sign of Tulsa's economy stagnating. I hear a lot of people cite articles about it being good, but I don't see it.
quote:
Originally posted by we vs us
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
I actually couldnt figure out how it was that the 21st and Yale area saw the rebirth it did. Perhaps it became one of those large nodes that is drawing from miles around it.
It might have something to do with the Reasor's. My theory is that it's the nearest one to the famed northside food desert. You see a different clientele in that Reasor's than you do next door, at Target.
21st & Yale redevelopment can be explained in two words: Big Box.
I wish I would have known you and Dayzella were wandering around on 15th. I live five or six houses off there. (Funny, after you get so used to where your house is, it's hard to give directions to friends!).
I will probably bum around some of the stores this Sat as I need to find a couple of pieces of furniture.
There is such a mish-mash of varied quality and building styles all all along that corridor Cannon is talking about. Other than new parking lot sealer every ten years or so, The center where Steve's Sundries is located is just the same as it was when I picked up the Tulsa Tribune to throw every afternoon 30+ years ago.
I have the same observations, but there is just something about living in this area I really love. Pretty easy access to about anywhere, Merrits is a short walk, TU in the other direction, what's not to like? [;)]
TulsaScoot:
Harvard was suffering when I moved here in 2003. Then it livened up a bit, and now has rescinded. Even as new stores open on Cherry, the Blue Dome, South Tulsa, Jenks, Broken Arrow... it seems indicative of the area more than the local economy of a whole.
Also, Tulsa has more jobs now than it ever has. We lost too many white collar jobs IMHO, but for average Joe there are more jobs than ever.
I did my meandering about the antique shops this afternoon. I was dismayed to see that Paula's and Colonial Antiques are moving out. Colonial is going to Jenks, Paula's is done. That makes two more empty store fronts near the old Harvard True Value.
One possible problem I'm thinking of on re-developing much of that is the blocks between 11th & 21st are platted as being 150 feet deep. I think that pretty much limits re-development options unless someone were to buy up houses on Inidanapolis to the east or Gary Place to the west. That would really piss off the residents on those side streets.
Oh well, at least I got some cool furniture at close-out prices.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
As I drive down Harvard I notice more and more of the character giving retail from 11th to 31st going bare.
15) The strip mall at 29th and Harvard is nearly abandoned with a dog groomer and a payday loans the only occupants.
Wait a minute, isn't that where Steve's Sundry is located? Steve's Sundry is still there, isn't it?
Haven't been over there in a few months, but that would be really sad if we lost them.
quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
Wait a minute, isn't that where Steve's Sundry is located? Steve's Sundry is still there, isn't it?
Steves is still at 26th & Harvard, in a slightly less depressed strip center.
The center Steve's is in remains full. Hair salon, Chinese place, Southern Ag, Steve's, party shop, Dominoes and some other small shop.
The one I was speaking of is further South and on the East side of the street. Very little parking in the front. Just south of the genealogical center.
Oh good. I remembered there was a pet store in there with Steve's Sundry, I guess I was confusing Southern Ag with the pet groomer mentioned to be in the 26th & Harvard strip center.