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Talk About Tulsa => Other Tulsa Discussion => Topic started by: RecycleMichael on January 11, 2008, 09:01:39 PM

Title: Discussing blackjack card counting
Post by: RecycleMichael on January 11, 2008, 09:01:39 PM
In another thread, the conversation kept coming back to blackjack card counting. I thought I would start a thread about just that.

I love to play blackjack, but do not play in Oklahoma because it is the only state that charges an ante. The tribes said it was a state law to charge it, but now some casinos have admitted it was a lie by now not charging it on certain days.

I count cards. It is not that hard. This is what I have experienced.

Start with aces. A full table has six players and a dealer so before anybody hits or passes there are fourteen cards played out of 312 (a six deck shoe). Normal play on average has half of the players drawing no cards, two others drawing one or two cards and one player drawing three or more cards. That equals about 21 or 22 cards are in play, on average, each round the dealer deals cards.

Five rounds would burn through about two full decks (around a 100 cards) and on average eight aces. Ten rounds would be double that and that is usually about when the dealer will reshuffle.
Count aces and on the last couple of rounds if your number is way less than 16, then you have more aces than usual left in the shoe and more chances to get one for your hand. That is when you begin to bet more.

Blackjack is a pretty even odds game and the advantage to the played is that they get paid time and a half on two cards twenty-ones.

On the flip side, if in the first couple of rounds you see five or more aces, then there are less than the average number of aces left in the shoe and you should stand up and leave the table.

One trick I used when I was starting out was to have a stack of chips that corresponded to the number of aces I saw or the number of rounds we had played. I also used to move my fingers under the table, counting to myself.

After you master aces, you can start with all the ten point cards (tens, jacks, queens and kings). Knowing how many of them are left and about how many cards are left in the shoe can come in real handy, especially when splitting cards or doubling down.
Title: Discussing blackjack card counting
Post by: Wilbur on January 12, 2008, 07:25:20 AM
I like http://www.blackjackinfo.com/ for black jack training and tips.  They have a black jack trainer you can play, and if your move doesn't agree with their strategy, it will pop up and tell you what your move should be.  You can also print off a card that tells you when to hit, double, split, ..... (so you can take to the casino).  And if I remember correctly, they also have a section on card counting, which I have tried and found it to be too difficult, especially when the game is moving too fast.  But their card counting was move doing plus-one and minus-one depending on the cards.
Title: Discussing blackjack card counting
Post by: RecycleMichael on January 12, 2008, 10:14:17 AM
The plus minus system that they use was the first one I learned. It isn't hard, but twice as much trouble as the one I wrote of above.

In that system, tens and aces are minus a point and twos through sixes are plus one point (sevens, eights, and nines are nuetral). Near the end of the shoe, if your count is a negative number, it means there are lots of tens and aces and the house advantage is lower. If the number is positive, the reverse.

The key to both card counting strategies is that blackjack has some historical factors that if observed, can become an edge. Most of the casono games are totally random. The roulette wheel, the slot machine, and the craps table have no memory; the mathmatical chance of something happening is the same no matter what happened the time before.
Title: Discussing blackjack card counting
Post by: mr.jaynes on January 12, 2008, 05:32:42 PM
Not to boast, but I seem to have a sixth sense for cheats in any game; card counting in blackjack is practically a gimme.....
Title: Discussing blackjack card counting
Post by: RecycleMichael on January 12, 2008, 05:50:01 PM
I once thought I had an sixth sense...but it turned out to just be extra smell...

No dealer or casino would ever care that I count cards because I bet so little money. I play one and two dollar tables in Vegas, and never play the ten dollar minimum tables anywhere else. If I was rich like Wilbur, they would be watching my play much closer.

I play it because it is a great game and I can totally concentrate. I have some attention problems, try to do ten things at once, and like distractions that completely consume me. I can get completely in a zone, counting and remembering every card, with total knowledge of the money, odds, and outcomes.

Some people get that distraction that with movies, they totally shut out everything else and listen to every word and absorb every image. I count the people in the audience, sub-divide by sex and age, do anagrams with the names of the characters, color code my skittles and time my chews of popcorn.
Title: Discussing blackjack card counting
Post by: cannon_fodder on January 14, 2008, 09:32:22 AM
2 words:

Continuous Shoe.

Most of the Indian Casinos around here use a continuous shoe.  Making card counting impossible as each hand is place in the back of the system and automatically shuffled back in.  Add the anti =  don't play.

Add craps and ditch the anti and the local casinos would get a few hundred bucks from me and another $1000 from my friends each year.  I imagine it's the same for many more people.
Title: Discussing blackjack card counting
Post by: Bravos47 on January 15, 2008, 04:49:52 PM
The part about the ante being a state law is true.  Casinos in this state promote "no ante night" but this doesn't mean the antes aren't being paid to the state.  The antes are paid out of a promotional budget.  The ante is actually the only way that Oklahoma casinos profit from blackjack.  The amount that the house wins goes into a players pool that can only be used for the cost of doing business and promotions.  Just to clear up any confusion.
Title: Discussing blackjack card counting
Post by: RecycleMichael on January 15, 2008, 06:22:50 PM
Sorry to not believe you. Please provide some documentation to your claim.

I also don't believe the claim that the ante is the only way the tribe makes any money at blackjack. The game is played in casinos all over the world, making a good profit. All over the world, blackjack does not charge an ante...why would they in Oklahoma.
Title: Discussing blackjack card counting
Post by: cannon_fodder on January 16, 2008, 08:29:33 AM
The issue is certainly fuzzy.  I've been told it is collected "for Oklahoma schools" are Cherokee, other times I have heard it is because the Casino's can not profit from blackjack directly, or the Creeks say the "ante is required to play before each hand is dealt. This fee is collected by Creek Nation Casino to host non-house backed table games in Oklahoma. Monies collected to create a players pool are disseminated back to the players via promotional prizes."

I'll do some research and see if I can't find the actual provision.

Until then, for gods sake - don't pay ante to play blackjack.