http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=17790119
quote:
All Things Considered, January 2, 2008 ยท Oklahoma's local law against illegal immigration is among the toughest in the nation. The law went into effect Nov. 1, and advocates for undocumented workers and activists for tougher immigration measures both say that since then, thousands of immigrants have left Oklahoma.
Among other things, the new law makes it a felony to harbor, transport or aid an illegal immigrant. Hispanic leaders say the law is causing widespread fear in the Hispanic community. Builders say they can't get enough workers and are threatening a lawsuit to try to block the law.
But backers of the measure say it's doing what the federal government has failed to do: address the problem of people working in the U.S. illegally.
The link above has the full radio broadcast, with interviews and commentary on Tulsa from builders, immigrants, and the police chief. It really seemed to focus on Tulsa. Presumably because an NPR reporter could be lynched anywhere else in the state.
[;)] 7.25 minute audio clip.
Explains that Tulsa's registered Hispanic population increased from 7% in 2000 to 11% in 2006 - probably more with illegals. That we have a worker shortage. And that the bill has caused illegals and legal residence of Hispanic heritage to feel unwelcome.
It also gets the police chief's perspective: that they are only using it as a tool to deport people who have broken other laws. They are not hunting down Hispanics nor question citizenship on routine traffic stops. But if you are in his jail and illegal, they have a new tool.
It seemed well rounded overall. It gave sympathy to those who desire Hispanic labor and the immigrant themselves, but ended with the police perspective that it is not a man hunt.
and you thought I was some right winger who only listened to El Rushbo.
[:P]
We know of several friends of friends who were deported after being stopped (purportedly) for minor traffic infractions.
"We are only deporting serious criminals" is the ticket and not true.
I guess I have no way of knowing if that is true or not...
I suppose the underlying crime would be driving without a license or insurance. Normally they impound your car and issue you a summons to appear in court. So I guess that triggers the "other crime" clause as opposed to just being here illegally.
Again, I really don't know but that is the only thing that makes sense to me. Actively perusing random persons or proof if citizenship is over the edge. I'd be interesting in hearing more about how it is really being enforced as illegal immigrants that break the law in additional ways get little sympathy for me (I am understanding of the catch 22 on drivers licenses, I refer to more 'serious' crimes for the sake of argument).
Please listen to the article to make sure I am not misconstruing it. I was listening and driving and then regurgitated it today so it may be off.
I'm glad you posted this. I moved here after the bill took effect, so have missed most of the debate about it. I heard this on the radio yesterday and my ears perked right up. I'm glad NPR did a "fair and balanced" take on it; for my money, they usually do, and it seemed like the reporter did an admirable job of trying to get all voices heard from.
They focused on the construction industry, but I'll bet you before the bill finally gets repealed, every corner of OKs economy will feel the pinch.
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Originally posted by we vs us
I'm glad you posted this. I moved here after the bill took effect, so have missed most of the debate about it. I heard this on the radio yesterday and my ears perked right up. I'm glad NPR did a "fair and balanced" take on it; for my money, they usually do, and it seemed like the reporter did an admirable job of trying to get all voices heard from.
They focused on the construction industry, but I'll bet you before the bill finally gets repealed, every corner of OKs economy will feel the pinch.
Believe me, it is, but it's not the major cataclysm it was predicted to be prior to Nov. 1. Oklahoma will adjust and rebound.
I think this may have been the start of something much bigger to come in a workable national immigration reform. Other states are looking closely at what happened here and modeling laws after ours. When half the states have enacted such laws and there is a glut of unemployed illegal aliens sucking social services dry out of amnesty states, the feds will finally do something about it.
Whatever happens on a national basis will wind up looking a lot like the amnesty bill of '86 out of necessity and people are just going to have to get used to that idea.
Until Congress finally funds the border security measures they passed a year or so back, it doesn't make one bit of difference what we do to the legal status of those who are already here and those who will be here tomorrow.
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Originally posted by Hometown
We know of several friends of friends who were deported after being stopped (purportedly) for minor traffic infractions.
"We are only deporting serious criminals" is the ticket and not true.
Minor traffic infractions are as good a reason as any. There is no such thing as a "little bit" illegal. It is more of a black and white issue. Oh, by the way, did your "friends of friends" have a drivers license?
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Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by we vs us
They focused on the construction industry, but I'll bet you before the bill finally gets repealed, every corner of OKs economy will feel the pinch.
Believe me, it is, but it's not the major cataclysm it was predicted to be prior to Nov. 1. Oklahoma will adjust and rebound.
Oh, give it some time. This has only been in effect for a month or so, right? Not nearly enough time to really feel the effects. Let's look at it after a year's gone by and we'll see then what the fallout is.
Bottom line, prices on lots of things will skyrocket. Illegals have been distorting pricing in the US for a long long time. They've been subsidizing our "low low prices" lifestyle, and without them taking the pay cut to cut the lawns and build the houses and gut the chickens and clean your bathrooms, we'll have to start actually paying Americans to do those jobs.
Yesterday, the Oklahoma Sooners were the best ad for our state....today, it's the way we handle immigrunts.
Tomorrow, it will be how our state seems to be holding its own while the rest the country slips into recess or worse.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Believe me, it is, but it's not the major cataclysm it was predicted to be prior to Nov. 1. Oklahoma will adjust and rebound.
--"How's that?", asked Chicken Little in a tone as dry as the Mojave Desert.--
These folks are being chased, literally, to surrounding states. So, houses in Fayetteville will get built faster and cheaper. What's your plan to make sure that Tulsa keeps pace with our competitor to the east?
"Adjusting" and "rebounding" are not the same thing. We can
adjust to a lot of things: nosy government; scared citizens; racism; tragic deaths; population losses; and a sagging economy. That's not exactly a
rebound though, is it? So, tell me what I'm missing. What's the plan? How is Tulsa going to rebound?
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What's your plan to make sure that Tulsa keeps pace with our competitor to the east?
Let's see....stop renewing dental & cosmetic surgical licenses, forcing them to revert to body piercing and tatooing.
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Originally posted by Chicken Little
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Believe me, it is, but it's not the major cataclysm it was predicted to be prior to Nov. 1. Oklahoma will adjust and rebound.
--"How's that?", asked Chicken Little in a tone as dry as the Mojave Desert.--
These folks are being chased, literally, to surrounding states. So, houses in Fayetteville will get built faster and cheaper. What's your plan to make sure that Tulsa keeps pace with our competitor to the east?
"Adjusting" and "rebounding" are not the same thing. We can adjust to a lot of things: nosy government; scared citizens; racism; tragic deaths; population losses; and a sagging economy. That's not exactly a rebound though, is it? So, tell me what I'm missing. What's the plan? How is Tulsa going to rebound?
Drop the hyperbole CL, you're frightening the little kids. I'm picturing OHP cars with sharp teeth on the grills nipping at the heels of illegal immigrants as they dive across the border into Arkansas.
And to answer Wevus- even with HB 1804 we get cheap chicken from Arkansas and SW Mo., cheap pork and beef products from Texas, Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa & Missouri, we still get our cheap produce from Florida, Texas, and California. Only things agriculturaly which are changing is others might pay more for our export wheat, cotton, peanuts & soybeans.
I don't think anyone's having to pay more for our #1 cash crop these days, that's usually white trash hill-jacks who grow that anyhow.
What a lot of you have not seen is there are a lot of Hispanics staying behind, laying low, and working in relative security away from the public eye inside plants all around the area.
People assume since you aren't seeing as many Hispanics around construction sites or loitering around QT that they've all left. They have not. That's a fact.
no kidding. so less workers is better?
Yeah, everyone that lives pays property tax which pays for almost everything. So even he illegals where paying taxes.
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Originally posted by dggriffi
So even he illegals where paying taxes.
I think I agree... if you meant something like "So even [t]he illegals [were] paying taxes."
yeah, thanks for correcting. The only thing they didn't pay was federal and state income taxes, which, at their income level, may be nothing. Sales and property taxes pay for most of everything around here anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by dggriffi
yeah, thanks for correcting. The only thing they didn't pay was federal and state income taxes, which, at their income level, may be nothing. Sales and property taxes pay for most of everything around here anyway.
And in actuality, lots are paying into social security -- via their fake soc sec #s -- as well. And because they're not going to be able to draw on it when they're older, well that's a net gain into the soc sec system.
The main reason that illegals are a drain on the system is because they're poor, not because they're illegal, since the poor as a whole draw more assistance from the system than they contribute.
that is true of the non working poor but not of the working poor. Especially if they cannot receive assistance.
As Wevus pointed out, many do pay the taxes. Most employers do so to avoid penalties if busted and pay under "assume SS #'s" and claim the illegal presented the # (hiring illegal is not nearly as severe as tax avoidance). Still other's do file tax returns and the like (in some instances they are required to in the State to acquire benefits).
I'm afraid I do not have a good link to illustrate this point and no REAL knowledge (my companies are all on the up and up). But from hat I have read such is the case - though I am open to correction and am sure plenty do NOT pay SS and Income taxes (most would probably get a "refund" from income non-payment anyway).
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Originally posted by dggriffi
that is true of the non working poor but not of the working poor. Especially if they cannot receive assistance.
I think we're on the same page here. It's true that there's a widening gap between who and what public assistance will cover, and actual real life poverty, but for all intents and purposes any variable taxes out there (I'm specifically thinking about income taxes) aren't applicable to the working poor either. Under a certain income level, no tax is owed at all.
But again, I agree with you on what I think your larger point is, and that's that the working poor -- of which there are more and more -- are having a harder and harder time making it.
It was my understanding that most illegals get paid cash.... Thereby forcing the employer to treat them (on the books) as contract labor and not requiring anyone to pay any sort of taxes on the income. Once the 1099s were printed and disbursed at the end of the year, viola, everyone changes names. This way, no ILLEGAL workers were harmed by taxes and no taxes are paid.
You can't just decide who is 1099 and who is not. If it looks like an employee, acts like an employee, and gets paid like an employee... it's an employee. Factually, you can 1099 whoever you want - but if/when you get caught you are then required to pay all the back taxes plus penalties and fines. Not to mention it gives the IRS a reason to look over other things. In short, listing a large number of people as 1099 in a common industry (roofers, for instance) is a good way to get nailed.
Thus, joe blow day laborer gets paid in cash. But when Tyson gets busted with 300 illegal workers or some restaurant - they are probably paying full taxes on them. The mid-sized operations (roofers, yard care) probably go both ways - but at a certain point it is hard to keep money under the table. And frankly, if you were going to pay no taxes why bother with 1099's, if you're willing to commit fraud and risk getting busted you'd be better sticking with cash off the books.
Considering the 1% OK employment security and FUTA, 10% workman's comp, 8% FICA, compliance costs and other associated crap... it's no wonder it is a tempting proposition. When I could just give half of the 20% added expense to the employee and we both win. Until we get caught... and put out of business.
The other thing this bill did, was fix that 1099 hole.
HB 1804 will require that, effective July 1, 2008, anyone using an independent contractor must either verify the contractor's employment authorization or withhold state income tax from the contractor's pay.
One recent case of fraudulent 1099s....
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?articleID=071221_5_E2_spanc55316
what is employment authorization?
quote:
Originally posted by dggriffi
what is employment authorization?
Dunno. Section 7(A)
A. Every public employer shall register with and utilize a Status Verification System as described in subparagraphs a or b of paragraph 1 of Section 6 of this act to verify the federal employment authorization status of all new employees.
http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/2007-08bills/HB/HB1804_ENR.RTF
Unfortunately, the status verification system has been greatly flawed in the past, and I'm not optimistic it will be in much better shape by July 1. Trying to enhance that system is one of the reasons the stiff employer liability does not go into affect until July.
I do believe the 1099 scams are far more common in construction, landscaping, and farming. Large plants know better.
so its essentially a new regulation on businesses requiring them to enroll with a service to check verification. Sounds like an unfunded mandate or what some of us call a "Tax"
Thats great as those costs will be handed down to us. So in summary.
The racists who cover their intent in a shroud of legality will now increase the cost of construction by cutting available labor, increase the cost of all goods due to unfunded mandates, and reduce local demand by reducing the local workforce will save our economy while not increase work frequency among lazy whites.
BRILLIANT!
Anecdote. My refuse collector (he owns his trucks and the license) just told me this morning that his best worker was forced to return to Mexico even though he was legal. It seems his wife and children were deported and he wasn't going to stay without them. They committed no crime he knew of. He was pretty frustrated as an owner that he has difficulty finding any workers other than the pitiful crews from Standby who don't measure up. Get enough anecdotes, you have a novel.
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Originally posted by waterboy
Anecdote. My refuse collector (he owns his trucks and the license) just told me this morning that his best worker was forced to return to Mexico even though he was legal. It seems his wife and children were deported and he wasn't going to stay without them. They committed no crime he knew of. He was pretty frustrated as an owner that he has difficulty finding any workers other than the pitiful crews from Standby who don't measure up. Get enough anecdotes, you have a novel.
I think this is stickiest part of dealing with illegal immigrants. It's the families that blend illegals and legals. Where one member of the family commits the crime, and the rest end up paying as well.
It's awful, because illegal immigration is essentially a "victimless" crime, in that there aren't individuals directly wronged. The underlying crime isn't larceny, or rape, or assault or murder. The crime is existing in a certain physical place (in the US), in an unrecognized way. The only victim is the state. So it looks especially cruel, then, to inflict punishment on essentially helpless individuals and families on behalf of the state.
It's also looks worse because many of these "criminals" live lives that are in every other way exemplary. Hard workers, contributors to their communities, builders of strong families, and hugely religious. And, I might add, absolute believers in the American Way.
we must be good citizens and protect the state.
freedom is oppression. War is peace.