Bad deal for Barry. Curious what other's opinions are as to whether or not he should be in the HOF and whether or not his "record" should stand.
Yeah, he's the king in the era of 'roid ball, but I don't think they are interested in keeping separate stats.
Yes, his record should stand because the home runs came against real pitchers and during real games. If you invalidate the home runs, you're making the argument that the runs scored during those games didn't exist. That doesn't make a lot of sense.
And A-Rod might break Bonds' record in a few years anyway.
I would put him in the Hall of Fame, simply because his numbers were already good enough before he got on the juice. But I'd make him wait a number of years after he was eligible. No first-ballot for you!
Who is Barry Bonds? [:P]
I'm pretty ambivalent about it. Chances are, steroid use is more wide-spread in MLB than anyone will ever admit. IOW- he's likely batted against juiced-up pitchers, but that's not who got caught.
You'd have a hard time convincing me that Mark McGwire wasn't juicing with something other than Andros. I saw him play in his rookie season with the A's at Kansas City and he was scrawny compared to how bulked up he was at the end of his career.
Yeah, except McGwire hit 49 homers his rookie season. He was a prodigious fence-banger from Day One.
Anyone can take muscle-building stuff (including pitchers). But it takes a real skill and mental discipline to hit major-league pitching with consistency. Muscle mass won't help you without those tools.
In the opposite direction, John Kruk was a hillbilly who smoked, drank and was a lard*ss. But he also hit .300 in a pretty long career. He knew how to play baseball.
So, yes, I'm also indifferent about the issue.
This reminds me -- when the Baseball Hall of Fame took a display on the road about 10 years ago, it had Babe Ruth's bat. Upon closer inspection by the major-leaguers, they found it was corked. [}:)]
As long as baseball players are around, they're always going to be trying to gain an edge, whether it's stealing signs, corking bats, etc.
Great story about Mark McGwire. He hit the most homers as a rookie ever in 1987. No rookie had ever hit close to fifty. It would have been a big deal.
He didn't go the the ballpark the last day of the season, opting instead to go to the hospital to see his son born. This was the same eleven year old kid who got to be batboy the night Mark McGwire broke the season homer record in 1998.
He only took androstenedione, not a steriod. He took it when it was prescribed by his doctor and the team physician and was totally legal by baseball standards.
It's sad that our government has chosen sports to sic their grand juries after, instead of going after corrupt politicians.
(http://www.blackstate.com/images/BarryBonds.jpg)
Was there ever really a doubt? 4 years of college prep, a few years in the minors, and most of a decade in the pros... he apparently just never discovered weight lifting.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
Great story about Mark McGwire. He hit the most homers as a rookie ever in 1987. No rookie had ever hit close to fifty. It would have been a big deal.
He didn't go the the ballpark the last day of the season, opting instead to go to the hospital to see his son born. This was the same eleven year old kid who got to be batboy the night Mark McGwire broke the season homer record in 1998.
He only took androstenedione, not a steriod. He took it when it was prescribed by his doctor and the team physician and was totally legal by baseball standards.
There's no proof of that other than his own public statements or those of his attorney.
He also artfully dodged pointed questions posed by the sub-committee in D.C., thereby sparing himself any possibility of self-incrimination or later perjury charges.
I agree 100% the government had no business getting involved in this in the first place, it's a total innapropriate waste of resources. Let the pro sports leagues police themselves and mete out their own penalties.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Bad deal for Barry. Curious what other's opinions are as to whether or not he should be in the HOF and whether or not his "record" should stand.
Yeah, he's the king in the era of 'roid ball, but I don't think they are interested in keeping separate stats.
If you want my honest opinion, I hope he goes to jail. He was offered immunity, all he had to do was come clean. He chose to lie about it all and his arrogance is going to cost him. How could anyone tied to balco not be doing roids. I mean come on, you dont get that big in your mid 30's by lifting weights everyday. I remember his days with the pirates, he was a scrawny little thing. Cannon fodder that is a great "before and after" shot of Bonds.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
Great story about Mark McGwire. He hit the most homers as a rookie ever in 1987. No rookie had ever hit close to fifty. It would have been a big deal.
He didn't go the the ballpark the last day of the season, opting instead to go to the hospital to see his son born. This was the same eleven year old kid who got to be batboy the night Mark McGwire broke the season homer record in 1998.
He only took androstenedione, not a steriod. He took it when it was prescribed by his doctor and the team physician and was totally legal by baseball standards.
There's no proof of that other than his own public statements or those of his attorney.
He also artfully dodged pointed questions posed by the sub-committee in D.C., thereby sparing himself any possibility of self-incrimination or later perjury charges.
I agree 100% the government had no business getting involved in this in the first place, it's a total innapropriate waste of resources. Let the pro sports leagues police themselves and mete out their own penalties.
Congress does have oversight of baseball. MLB is special among sports legally. There are court rulings and special laws that partially void anti-trust law for MLB and Congress has been granted and has reserved oversight with baseball by way of the threat of removal of the anti-trust exemption.
http://instruct1.cit.cornell.edu/courses/econ352jpw/readme/Baseball%20Prospectus%20-%20Ending%20Baseball's%20Antitrust%20Exemption.htm
quote:
Originally posted by TUalum0982
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Bad deal for Barry. Curious what other's opinions are as to whether or not he should be in the HOF and whether or not his "record" should stand.
Yeah, he's the king in the era of 'roid ball, but I don't think they are interested in keeping separate stats.
If you want my honest opinion, I hope he goes to jail. He was offered immunity, all he had to do was come clean. He chose to lie about it all and his arrogance is going to cost him. How could anyone tied to balco not be doing roids. I mean come on, you dont get that big in your mid 30's by lifting weights everyday. I remember his days with the pirates, he was a scrawny little thing. Cannon fodder that is a great "before and after" shot of Bonds.
But he's Barry Bonds!
My opinion may not be right, but it is RIGHT.
Why is the senate involved in this? I don't care what anyone puts into their bodies.
It is a personal choice that causes harm to no one else, good or bad. If the governing body of MLB wants to monitor players and hand out punishment, then so be it, but why is my government forcing players to testify? What business is it of theirs?
This is a private issue between an organization and, for lack of a better word, it's employees! If the government wants to penalize the physicians that source the drugs, then fine. HGH, Winstrol, and Testosterone are not illegal drugs. They are available to every physician.
To give the "Liberal" side of the argument, shouldn't these players have the same protected rights as transsexuals? After all, they have made a conscious choice to alter their physiology. They are just big strong guys living in a little bodies. In some states the government will pay for hormone therapy for transsexuals. It is also an obscure write-off on your federal taxes. This is the same situation, just different hormones. These poor prosecuted players just want to reach their full potential in life, and escape the ridicule of the bigots that claim they have no place in society.
Under this, bizarre, but sound argument, it is the governments duty to protect the rights and jobs of these individuals. You just watch, it's coming!
I love this. Just take the most outregious and idiodic position and apply a small amount of creative logic, and you have a "Liberal" position! Someone should make this into a party game.
quote:
Originally posted by spoonbill
My opinion may not be right, but it is RIGHT.
Why is the senate involved in this? I don't care what anyone puts into their bodies.
It is a personal choice that causes harm to no one else, good or bad. If the governing body of MLB wants to monitor players and hand out punishment, then so be it, but why is my government forcing players to testify? What business is it of theirs?
This is a private issue between an organization and, for lack of a better word, it's employees! If the government wants to penalize the physicians that source the drugs, then fine. HGH, Winstrol, and Testosterone are not illegal drugs. They are available to every physician.
To give the "Liberal" side of the argument, shouldn't these players have the same protected rights as transsexuals? After all, they have made a conscious choice to alter their physiology. They are just big strong guys living in a little bodies. In some states the government will pay for hormone therapy for transsexuals. It is also an obscure write-off on your federal taxes. This is the same situation, just different hormones. These poor prosecuted players just want to reach their full potential in life, and escape the ridicule of the bigots that claim they have no place in society.
Under this, bizarre, but sound argument, it is the governments duty to protect the rights and jobs of these individuals. You just watch, it's coming!
I love this. Just take the most outregious and idiodic position and apply a small amount of creative logic, and you have a "Liberal" position! Someone should make this into a party game.
BINGO!!!
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
Great story about Mark McGwire. He hit the most homers as a rookie ever in 1987. No rookie had ever hit close to fifty. It would have been a big deal.
He didn't go the the ballpark the last day of the season, opting instead to go to the hospital to see his son born. This was the same eleven year old kid who got to be batboy the night Mark McGwire broke the season homer record in 1998.
He only took androstenedione, not a steriod. He took it when it was prescribed by his doctor and the team physician and was totally legal by baseball standards.
There's no proof of that other than his own public statements or those of his attorney.
He also artfully dodged pointed questions posed by the sub-committee in D.C., thereby sparing himself any possibility of self-incrimination or later perjury charges.
I agree 100% the government had no business getting involved in this in the first place, it's a total innapropriate waste of resources. Let the pro sports leagues police themselves and mete out their own penalties.
Congress does have oversight of baseball. MLB is special among sports legally. There are court rulings and special laws that partially void anti-trust law for MLB and Congress has been granted and has reserved oversight with baseball by way of the threat of removal of the anti-trust exemption.
http://instruct1.cit.cornell.edu/courses/econ352jpw/readme/Baseball%20Prospectus%20-%20Ending%20Baseball's%20Antitrust%20Exemption.htm
Nice citation as to how it relates to collective bargaining, franchise location, etc. Anti-trust law doesn't give Congress Carte Blanche to stick their nose into the steroid issue.
Here have an orange, I'm going to eat my apple. [;)]
quote:
Originally posted by spoonbill
My opinion may not be right, but it is RIGHT.
Why is the senate involved in this? I don't care what anyone puts into their bodies.
It is a personal choice that causes harm to no one else, good or bad. If the governing body of MLB wants to monitor players and hand out punishment, then so be it, but why is my government forcing players to testify? What business is it of theirs?
This is a private issue between an organization and, for lack of a better word, it's employees! If the government wants to penalize the physicians that source the drugs, then fine. HGH, Winstrol, and Testosterone are not illegal drugs. They are available to every physician.
To give the "Liberal" side of the argument, shouldn't these players have the same protected rights as transsexuals? After all, they have made a conscious choice to alter their physiology. They are just big strong guys living in a little bodies. In some states the government will pay for hormone therapy for transsexuals. It is also an obscure write-off on your federal taxes. This is the same situation, just different hormones. These poor prosecuted players just want to reach their full potential in life, and escape the ridicule of the bigots that claim they have no place in society.
Under this, bizarre, but sound argument, it is the governments duty to protect the rights and jobs of these individuals. You just watch, it's coming!
I love this. Just take the most outregious and idiodic position and apply a small amount of creative logic, and you have a "Liberal" position! Someone should make this into a party game.
I will disagree with the one highlited point above. It does hurt others. Athletes are role models to alot of young kids, they imitate them and want to be them when they grow up.
Take for instance,Taylor Hooten. He was a 17 year old starting pitcher for the varsity team at Plano West HS. He was taking steriods and took his own life 2 weeks before his senior year. His dad Don Hooten wrote a letter to congress about the abuse of anabolic steriods and their precursors by adolescent and amateur athletes. Over 3000 people attended his sons funeral. He said his son had horrible mood swings and would go into deep bouts of depression.
This is just one of thousands of stories thats similar. So to sit there and say it doesnt hurt anyone, tell that to Don Hooten who lost his son and never got the chance to say goodbye. His last images of his son are walking into his room and seeing his son hanging there lifeless.