From CBS (//%22http://cbs2.com/local/local_story_314230702.html%22)
quote:
(CBS) LONG BEACH, Calif. Antiwar veterans who attempted to march in a Veterans Day Parade Saturday in Long Beach were banned by organizers who said the parade was to thank veterans and not be political.
Members of Iraq Veterans Against the War, Veterans for Peace and Military Families Speak Out were prevented from joining the annual parade down Atlantic Avenue and restricted to a nearby parking lot.
Organizers said the groups were trying to push a political agenda at an event to honor veterans. Earlier this week, the Veterans Day Parade Committee rejected their applications to participate, according to the Long Beach Press-Telegram.
"This is not a political event, this is a time to come and just say thank you to all veterans," said Long Beach City Councilman Val Lerch, who also was on the parade committee.
Ann Wright, an Army veteran, said that although the annual event is organized by a private nonprofit organization, it doesn't reflect the true spirit of the holiday because they "just invite the veterans who agree with their point of view."
"That's not really what being a veteran is about," Wright said.
I like the "if you're not with me, you're against me" point of view. They weren't siding "for war" or "with bush".. the protesters were the only ones bringing politics into it.
Even though most of the other groups have been decidedly pro-War? Yeah, you're probably right, if you have a political point of view, you're not a veteran. Not a veteran anyone gives a crap about anyway. Well, then again, we don't particularly care for any of our veterans do we? We just like to see them in parades, and funerals. March, die, or go away. Interesting motto.
Bah, it's nothing.
Why should organizers of a parade meant to honor veterans allow a protest group or three to march in the parade? That really sullies the message of appreciation for vets and active duty.
The anti-war veterans should start their own Veteran's Day observation or parade if it's something they feel strongly about they have the freedom to do that. Why glom onto someone else's program and stir up ****?
I think Long Beach is one of the few left, that actually ban them.
But you're right. Not all Veterans are equal, gotta hate some of them. We'd do better just leaving all the veterans over seas, then we wouldn't have to deal with their crap.
Maybe one day we can get back to understanding that we don't always have to have a say in EVERYTHING. It's incredibly selfish of these people to protest on veteran's day.
Do they have the right to protest...probably, should they have the decency not to protest on veteran's day...common decency says yes.
We are a society of rights with absolutely no responsibility or civility to balance those rights. We're supreme narcissists, and these people wanting to protest are a perfect example of what we've become.
No one has a right to some "sanitized" version of the Vets. Vets are who they are.
It's total crap, that a so-called "Veterans Parade" would ban Veterans. Any Veterans. That's not common decency at all.
quote:
Originally posted by Neptune
No one has a right to some "sanitized" version of the Vets. Vets are who they are.
It's total crap, that a so-called "Veterans Parade" would ban Veterans. Any Veterans. That's not common decency at all.
What if a segment of the Vets decided to pull a Fred Phelps and march with God Hates Fags signs? Would you still feel that they deserved to march with the other vets?
quote:
Originally posted by Neptune
No one has a right to some "sanitized" version of the Vets. Vets are who they are.
It's total crap, that a so-called "Veterans Parade" would ban Veterans. Any Veterans. That's not common decency at all.
You're completely wrong. What if a Labor Day parade include Right to Work activists? It still concerns labor, right?
They're not banning veterans, they're banning activists. Refusing to allow a small group to turn a parade into a protest is perfectly fair. Go picket somewhere else.
quote:
Originally posted by Neptune
No one has a right to some "sanitized" version of the Vets. Vets are who they are.
It's total crap, that a so-called "Veterans Parade" would ban Veterans. Any Veterans. That's not common decency at all.
Spoken like a true non-veteran.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
What if a segment of the Vets decided to pull a Fred Phelps and march with God Hates Fags signs? Would you still feel that they deserved to march with the other vets?
Don't know.
It's hard to say how being bigots, or even racists, relates to the Military. There are more rules for the Military, than there are for most of Christianity.
Yeah sure, why not. Just let the Rainbow Military march, it's all good.
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
You're completely wrong. What if a Labor Day parade include Right to Work activists? It still concerns labor, right?
Labor Day, is kind of joke.
Sort of like our policy on Vets.
http://www.nchv.org/background.cfm
23% of all homeless people are Vets? Seriously? And you think some sanitized celebratory BS, that absolutely ignore Veterans is a good idea?
It's this concept, that somehow our lily-white, crisp, clean Veterans don't have lives or opinions, that makes our policy towards Veterans fail. We stick our heads in a hole, and dream a little dream.
You are right Neptune, those Vets do have a right to express their opinion. They also had the right to organize and pay for their own parade to do so. Likewise, those who did organize the parade had the right to control it and chose to exclude anyone hading out a political message.
You can argue that they should or should not have excluded them or that they should or should not be protesting, but it is not an issue of having the "right" to march in some parade or not.
Sheesh Neptune, are you going to pull the First Amendment out next and say the protesters have a protected right to march in the parade, being the Constitutional law expert you are pretending to be on another thread?
quote:
Originally posted by Neptune
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
What if a segment of the Vets decided to pull a Fred Phelps and march with God Hates Fags signs? Would you still feel that they deserved to march with the other vets?
Don't know.
It's hard to say how being bigots, or even racists, relates to the Military. There are more rules for the Military, than there are for most of Christianity.
Yeah sure, why not. Just let the Rainbow Military march, it's all good.
Glad to know that you don't mind seeing Veteran's Day parades or other solem, respectful activities turned into sideshows.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
Glad to know that you don't mind seeing Veteran's Day parades or other solem, respectful activities turned into sideshows.
Until we care about our Veterans, all of them, Veterans Day is a joke.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Sheesh Neptune, are you going to pull the First Amendment out next and say the protesters have a protected right to march in the parade, being the Constitutional law expert you are pretending to be on another thread?
The only one the mention "rights", was CF. Period. Run with it if you have to.
I only said banning the Vets was a crappy thing to do.
quote:
Originally posted by Neptune
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
Glad to know that you don't mind seeing Veteran's Day parades or other solem, respectful activities turned into sideshows.
Until we care about our Veterans, all of them, Veterans Day is a joke.
The point is, a relatively small group of anti-war veteran's want to make a display which would denegrate the occasion for the majority of veterans and those who are there to show their appreciation.
I don't know of anyone who selectively cares about veterans. Those people have a choice now, they can organize their own parade next year and walk through relatively empty streets.
It's a classless act by a small minority of veterans who wish to usurp an otherwise honorable event.
quote:
Originally posted by Neptune
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
Glad to know that you don't mind seeing Veteran's Day parades or other solem, respectful activities turned into sideshows.
Until we care about our Veterans, all of them, Veterans Day is a joke.
Allowing to people to march with God Hates Fags signs in a Vet march is a joke; one which you entirely support. It's comforting that even people in California have more common sense than you, but I don't think for a second you believe a word of this in the first place...
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
The point is, a relatively small group of anti-war veteran's want to make a display which would denegrate the occasion for the majority of veterans and those who are there to show their appreciation.
I don't know of anyone who selectively cares about veterans. Those people have a choice now, they can organize their own parade next year and walk through relatively empty streets.
It's a classless act by a small minority of veterans who wish to usurp an otherwise honorable event.
What's honorable about the principle that Veterans have no lives? What's honorable about a "sanitized" event?
We don't want reality. We want someone to perpetuate a lie: That we care.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
Allowing to people to march with God Hates Fags signs in a Vet march is a joke; one which you entirely support. It's comforting that even people in California have more common sense than you, but I don't think for a second you believe a word of this in the first place...
Well, ok you got me. I don't really care who marches for what, or who bans whom.
Veterans Day is a joke. We don't care, we just like pretending that we do.
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(http://www.erwingerrits.com/goatboy.jpg)
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I see Admin's floating around. Usually happens when I start exchanging barbs with the local morons. Maybe he'll delete some posts. Let's see if he starts off with the right one this time, or if it's mainly my posts.
So far you and iplaw are tied at about 48% of the posts I've redacted today.
quote:
Originally posted by Neptune
I only said banning the Vets was a crappy thing to do.
I misread your post then. I think it was appropriate if they wished to remain A-political. However, if you feel it was crappy do something about it. Organize an alternative parade for next year to express all opinions or some other activity.
I think no less of any veteran because of their political opinions, but that does not mean I want to associate my appreciation for their service with any political position.
Naw, no reason to fret. It's a dying trend. Vet Parades all over the place are accepting it, this one eventually will too.
Unless we head back towards Peace-time. Then the issue goes away.
quote:
Originally posted by Neptune
Unless we head back towards Peace-time. Then the issue goes away.
Why? Are those vets only anti-war when a republican is in the Whitehouse or just when we're in a war they don't like...
"Weapons are the tools of violence;
all decent men detest them.
Weapons are the tools of fear;
a decent man will avoid them
except in the direst necessity
and, if compelled, will use them
only with the utmost restraint.
Peace is his highest value.
If the peace has been shattered,
how can he be content?
His enemies are not demons,
but human beings like himself.
He doesn't wish them personal harm.
Nor does he rejoice in victory.
How could he rejoice in victory
and delight in the slaughter of men?
He enters a battle gravely,
with sorrow and with great compassion,
as if he were attending a funeral."
- Tao Te Ching
Only decent men detest war.
Ever notice how Tulsa is about 98 percent Military, Church and Football?
quote:
Only decent men detest war.
Of course decent men detest war, but only people who believe in fairy tales and tea kettles orbiting the moon believe that war isn't sometimes a necessity.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Ever notice how Tulsa is about 98 percent Military, Church and Football?
Ever notice how San Francisco is about 98% public drug use, rampant STDs and oil spills?
Nevermind. You didn't read the passage.
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quote:
So far you and iplaw are tied at about 48% of the posts I've redacted today.
I figured it would have been more than that. I'll try harder.
Just jackin with you. I'm done talking to ippy.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Ever notice how Tulsa is about 98 percent Military, Church and Football?
Sounds like heaven.
I think there is an emphasis on old testament so -- hell fire.
If Football has something to do with Heaven, does that mean Baseball fans are going to Hell?
I haven't seen the proof, though I've always made that assumption.
quote:
Originally posted by Neptune
If Football has something to do with Heaven, does that mean Baseball fans are going to Hell?
I haven't seen the proof, though I've always made that assumption.
No. They're just bored for an eternity instead of tortured...
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Ever notice how Tulsa is about 98 percent Military, Church and Football?
Ever notice how San Francisco is about 98% public drug use, rampant STDs and oil spills?
Play well with others?
It's an ongoing trend....
Homeless vets are being ignored by our government.
It's shameful.
Inhoffed. Our US Senaturd has twice led the fight against adequate funding for the VA. 52,000 Okies are vets.
Congress passes billions on pork, squandered a trillion on Iraqistan, but won't adequately fund programs for our homeless vets.
Yes Frosty, the sun is setting on America.
Kipling described combat veterans as men who'd "seen the elephant." I think that those vets who came back from Vietnam with the thousand yard stare or any combat veteran, for that matter, who chooses to speak out against the war has a position of greater authority than any of the rest of us. We've allowed the chicken hawks to drag us into a land war in Asia, a war mounted not to secure freedom but to secure oil and markets for American goods. Who better than the guys who've seen the elephant to speak out against it.
^ Very well said Ed W.....
Would the Long Beach parade organizers have allowed a group of "Homeless Vets"...?
This thread has as much to say about why the War in Iraq is going nowhere as the evening news...
Why don't they have the "live footage" on the evening news as when Viet Nam was happening...?
Are we headed towards total censorship.?
(http://www.i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/rico2/HomelessVets.jpg)
The above cartoon courtesy of the Tulsa World.
Nice to see a day purposed to celebrate veterans can be degenerated down on this page to attacks on our government. From now on, for those of you who get the urge to use Veteran's or Memorial Day as a vehicle to criticize, do me a favor and keep it to yourself. I think the majority of us who did serve would rather not read or hear your exercising the free speech rights that have been given to you by veterans on these days.
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
Nice to see a day purposed to celebrate veterans can be degenerated down on this page to attacks on our government. From now on, for those of you who get the urge to use Veteran's or Memorial Day as a vehicle to criticize, do me a favor and keep it to yourself. I think the majority of us who did serve would rather not read or hear your exercising the free speech rights that have been given to you by veterans on these days.
Amen
I've served. And both of you can take your suggestion, and blow it. I don't care who you think you are, you don't have a monopoly on the Military crowd.
quote:
I've served.
Pancakes at IHOP...
Good post guido.
I'm sure whatever that dufus said wasn't pleasant.
Good thing ignore works.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Why should organizers of a parade meant to honor veterans allow a protest group or three to march in the parade? That really sullies the message of appreciation for vets and active duty.
The anti-war veterans should start their own Veteran's Day observation or parade if it's something they feel strongly about they have the freedom to do that. Why glom onto someone else's program and stir up ****?
Perhaps the anti-war vets could start a "my recruiter tricked me and told me that the military was not a warfare occupation" or they can start a "I really like the military until I found I could go to war" parade.
quote:
Originally posted by Neptune
I've served. And both of you can take your suggestion, and blow it. I don't care who you think you are, you don't have a monopoly on the Military crowd.
I never claimed to have a monopoly on anything, because to do so would presume I spoke for an entire class of people. Sorta like you not having a monopoly on the know-it-all, self-involved douchebag crowd. You see, I know you speak for only a segment of that crowd.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Ever notice how Tulsa is about 98 percent Military, Church and Football?
Ever notice how San Francisco is about 98% public drug use, rampant STDs and oil spills?
I'm just curious Iplaw, have you ever been in San Francisco?
I was a candidate for the draft back during Vietnam and the lottery. The last year of the lottery my number was close but I lucked out. Before the lottery most of the guys that went were working class. Middle and Upper class kids got out by going to college and that qualified for a deferral before the lottery.
Serving in the military struck me as being a lot like going to prison and if I had been drafted my plan was to go to Canada.
Before the war was over I made one of my famous cross country hitch hiking trips and I made friends with another hitch hiker, a military man who was AWOL. We got stuck in Salt Lake City and stayed there all day and most of a night before we were picked up by some old guys from Arkansas in a truck. The military man was one of those people you feel like you know very well right away. We talked and talked and talked. Before we split up outside of Tulsa, I took his name and number. I wrote him several times over the years and never got a response. I still think about this man and hope that things worked out for him. I've lost his address, can't even remember where he was from.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Ever notice how Tulsa is about 98 percent Military, Church and Football?
Ever notice how San Francisco is about 98% public drug use, rampant STDs and oil spills?
I'm just curious Iplaw, have you ever been in San Francisco?
Yes. Unfortunately, three different times.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
I was a candidate for the draft back during Vietnam and the lottery. The last year of the lottery my number was close but I lucked out. Before the lottery most of the guys that went were working class. Middle and Upper class kids got out by going to college and that qualified for a deferral before the lottery.
Serving in the military struck me as being a lot like going to prison and if I had been drafted my plan was to go to Canada.
That post makes a person proud to be an American. Anyway, guess that whole, "land of the free, home of the
brave" thing never really sunk in did it?
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
That post makes a person proud to be an American. Anyway, guess that whole, "land of the free, home of the brave" thing never really sunk in did it?
Sometimes bravery means standing up against the herd mentality, speaking up with an unpopular opinion, or pointing out that the Emperor is stark naked and barking mad. Sometimes bravery means going to jail or losing a job because your ideas and opinions don't line up with the prevailing political wind.
The Bill of Rights concerns the rights of each of us as individuals. It's about one man, not a majority, not a political party, and certainly not any government this country has ever seen. It gives each of us the same right to speak our minds. Let me reiterate that - it's the SAME right. No one has a superior voice, despite the right wingnuts attempts to shout down any opposition, or tar their opponents as somehow un-American. I think their shrill, hate-filled diatribes are wearing thin with the American people. We can see through their shameful attempts to hang onto power at all costs, throwing away any pretense at decency, fairness, and truth.
And so it is with this pathetic attempt to silence anti-war vets and hide them away, far away from any public sight. They must have a very powerful message if the authorities are afraid to allow them to utter it in public.
quote:
Originally posted by Ed W
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
That post makes a person proud to be an American. Anyway, guess that whole, "land of the free, home of the brave" thing never really sunk in did it?
Sometimes bravery means standing up against the herd mentality, speaking up with an unpopular opinion, or pointing out that the Emperor is stark naked and barking mad. Sometimes bravery means going to jail or losing a job because your ideas and opinions don't line up with the prevailing political wind.
The Bill of Rights concerns the rights of each of us as individuals. It's about one man, not a majority, not a political party, and certainly not any government this country has ever seen. It gives each of us the same right to speak our minds. Let me reiterate that - it's the SAME right. No one has a superior voice, despite the right wingnuts attempts to shout down any opposition, or tar their opponents as somehow un-American. I think their shrill, hate-filled diatribes are wearing thin with the American people. We can see through their shameful attempts to hang onto power at all costs, throwing away any pretense at decency, fairness, and truth.
And so it is with this pathetic attempt to silence anti-war vets and hide them away, far away from any public sight. They must have a very powerful message if the authorities are afraid to allow them to utter it in public.
Are your remarks in response to my post? Did you read what my post was in response to or do you somehow find something "brave" about Hometown apparently counting his blessings that he did not have to serve in the military.
quote:
Originally posted by Ed W
Sometimes bravery means standing up against the herd mentality, speaking up with an unpopular opinion, or pointing out that the Emperor is stark naked and barking mad. Sometimes bravery means going to jail or losing a job because your ideas and opinions don't line up with the prevailing political wind.
A Brave man doesn't know he's Brave. Bravery done out of Pride, is the height of Cowardice.
I'm sure Lao didn't write it, but he should have.
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
Are your remarks in response to my post? Did you read what my post was in response to or do you somehow find something "brave" about Hometown apparently counting his blessings that he did not have to serve in the military.
I think bravery in this case is speaking up against something that is wrong. Anyone who does so becomes a target. Knowing there will be consequences for your actions, yet going ahead with them is another definition of bravery.
You seem to equate military service with bravery. That's fine, but it's a very narrow view. Those anti-war vets undoubtedly showed courage because they knew they'd be an object of scorn and derision by every rightard in the country.
quote:
Originally posted by Ed W
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
Are your remarks in response to my post? Did you read what my post was in response to or do you somehow find something "brave" about Hometown apparently counting his blessings that he did not have to serve in the military.
I think bravery in this case is speaking up against something that is wrong. Anyone who does so becomes a target. Knowing there will be consequences for your actions, yet going ahead with them is another definition of bravery.
You seem to equate military service with bravery. That's fine, but it's a very narrow view. Those anti-war vets undoubtedly showed courage because they knew they'd be an object of scorn and derision by every rightard in the country.
What is your point with respect to what I wrote in response to Hometown. That's what started this. Unless of course you mean we should celebrate the "bravery" of those who gleefully refused to serve their country at a time of war on Veteran's day.
Oh, and stow the "rightard" crap. You sound like Neptune.
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
What is your point with respect to what I wrote in response to Hometown. That's what started this. Unless of course you mean we should celebrate the "bravery" of those who gleefully refused to serve their country at a time of war on Veteran's day.
Oh, and stow the "rightard" crap. You sound like Neptune.
Oh, I see. You missed my point, so I'll reiterate it. That means I'll say it again using different words, hopefully shorter ones that are easier to understand.
Even protesters and anti-war vets are brave.
There. That was fairly simple, nothing more than three syllables.
Guido, it's hard now to grasp the mindset of the '60s and the ascendancy of the Left.
I remember participating in Moratorium here in Tulsa and the following month in Washington, D.C. My friend Brian and I were the only high school students on a chartered bus taking OU students to Washington for the big Moratorium in I think November. The year was 1969. We stayed at a Unitarian Church in the D.C. area. It was a historic march with record setting numbers of people. It was my first time in the capital and the movement of masses of people was breathtaking. And to top everything off the SDS did a snake dance down the street where our bus was parked and the police tear gassed the innocent bystanders after the SDS had dissipated.
I regret that the young war resisters now don't have the support we did.
The fact that some chose not to serve in Viet Nam neither makes them a "coward" nor proves that they are any less "patriotic" than the next fellow...
VietNam was a suicide mission... For what...? Historian's are still out on that one...
With the amount of trade the United States now does with Viet Nam, makes one wonder, "What the Hell was the War all about...?"
VietNam did give us a fellow named William Laws Calley and a little known spot on the map called "My Lai"...
As a result of Mister Calley's actions in "My Lai"... We were given a new wrinkle in the Military Code.
So much for that... Now Guido here is a little something to put a smile on your face.
(http://www.i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/rico2/GuidoBush.jpg)
quote:
Originally posted by Ed W
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
What is your point with respect to what I wrote in response to Hometown. That's what started this. Unless of course you mean we should celebrate the "bravery" of those who gleefully refused to serve their country at a time of war on Veteran's day.
Oh, and stow the "rightard" crap. You sound like Neptune.
Oh, I see. You missed my point, so I'll reiterate it. That means I'll say it again using different words, hopefully shorter ones that are easier to understand.
Even protesters and anti-war vets are brave.
There. That was fairly simple, nothing more than three syllables.
Well then, let's get into our little drum circle, and celebrate the bravery of those who didn't serve our country in the military on VETERAN'S DAY. What a great idea...
And another thing, pack up your contrived definition of "bravery", which certainly must make those freedom gravy trainers who ran off to Canada ran than be drafted feel good, and sell it to the Berkeley crowd hippie
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Guido, it's hard now to grasp the mindset of the '60s and the ascendancy of the Left.
I remember participating in Moratorium here in Tulsa and the following month in Washington, D.C. My friend Brian and I were the only high school students on a chartered bus taking OU students to Washington for the big Moratorium in I think November. The year was 1969. We stayed at a Unitarian Church in the D.C. area. It was a historic march with record setting numbers of people. It was my first time in the capital and the movement of masses of people was breathtaking. And to top everything off the SDS did a snake dance down the street where our bus was parked and the police tear gassed the innocent bystanders after the SDS had dissipated.
I regret that the young war resisters now don't have the support we did.
Gee Hometown, I take it all back. That's bravery....
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
I was a candidate for the draft back during Vietnam and the lottery. The last year of the lottery my number was close but I lucked out. Before the lottery most of the guys that went were working class. Middle and Upper class kids got out by going to college and that qualified for a deferral before the lottery.
Serving in the military struck me as being a lot like going to prison and if I had been drafted my plan was to go to Canada.
Before the war was over I made one of my famous cross country hitch hiking trips and I made friends with another hitch hiker, a military man who was AWOL. We got stuck in Salt Lake City and stayed there all day and most of a night before we were picked up by some old guys from Arkansas in a truck. The military man was one of those people you feel like you know very well right away. We talked and talked and talked. Before we split up outside of Tulsa, I took his name and number. I wrote him several times over the years and never got a response. I still think about this man and hope that things worked out for him. I've lost his address, can't even remember where he was from.
I guess that was before don't ask don't tell....
I was afraid of combat and I respect those that are not. It did involve some personal gumption to oppose the war and to come out as a homosexual in the early '70s and to speak up for immigrants today, but I have never tried to make a case for me being brave. I did, to the best of my ability, try to stop the war. And guess what? We stopped the war.
I think it's important for people like Breadburner and Guido to know that Tulsa has always played a part in left wing politics, no matter how modest the scale of participation.
My next door neighbors played a part in the Vietnam antiwar movement and Liberation Theology in Central America through their church here in Tulsa. They still belong to the same congregation and they are still left leaning. Tulsa's Catholic Church and Tulsa University were also centers of antiwar movement. We Liberals are here and always have been.
I think seeing combat on television every night made a difference. Now there are restrictions on broadcasts that don't allow us the same view of our current war or give us an opportunity to understand the terrible challenges our service people face today.
You've heard those surprising statistics from combat:
Hope on the Battlefield
by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman
Military leaders know a secret: The vast majority of people are overwhelmingly reluctant to take a human life.
During World War II, U.S. Army Brigadier General S.L.A. Marshall asked average soldiers how they conducted themselves in battle. Before that, it had always been assumed that the average soldier would kill in combat simply because his country and his leaders had told him to do so, and because it might be essential to defend his own life and the lives of his friends. Marshall's singularly unexpected discovery was that, of every hundred men along the line of fire during the combat period, an average of only 15 to 20 "would take any part with their weapons." This was consistently true, "whether the action was spread over a day, or two days, or three."
http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/greatergood/current_issue/grossman.html
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
I did, to the best of my ability, try to stop the war. And guess what? We stopped the war.
Actually, I believe it was an act of Congress or exectutive order, but let's not be technical here....
Couldn't resist this timely gem that I saw today:
http://www.canada.com/cityguides/halifax/info/story.html?id=a75afd45-daac-478d-a9a2-ad2a6ab7e1d9&k=78557
Looks like Canada's Supreme Court refuses to classify any of our "brave" military deserters who flee there as refugees. If you want a real laugh, look at the last quote from some "activist" responding to the decision and pleading to Parliament:
"Do not let the principles that Canadians cherish slip away"
Exactly what principles are those? "Canada: We want America's losers"
Well I could have done everything possible to avoid combat in Vietnam and grown up and gone on to become president and then as president waged an "elective" war and then sent young men and women into harm's way, but that would have been hypocrisy beyond belief.
Come on folks, let's get busy and make sure that when our men and women come home from Iraq they receive the care they need. And let's back up those sentiments with funding. That's the real way to honor our vets.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
I think it's important for people like Breadburner and Guido to know that Tulsa has always played a part in left wing politics, no matter how modest the scale of participation.
I disagree. The left-wing is overrated. Mainly by self-described "right-wingers." "Left-wing" is almost redundant with American Politics.
Name a "conservative" president.
*sound of crickets*
If you can't have a "right-wing" president, how can you have a "left-wing" president? They're complimentary, without one, there isn't the other.
What does "conservative" mean anyway? The Libertarian Party calls itself "Economic Liberals". They don't call themselves "conservatives", because it indicates an refusal to change and adapt. So what's a conservative?
The polarizing division is false, it's man-made, fictitious. Ever hear a "conservative" talking about how great it was in the days of way back, only to rip on FDR or the gov't? Why is it that "conservative" and "anti-gov't" can describe the same thing? Why do "conservatives" have such short memories about how high taxes used to be in the "good ole days"? Why do "conservatives" forget the contributions made by Christians to Civil Rights?
There no such thing as a "conservative" party or political group, it's just a bunch of complainers cobbled together for the single solitary purpose of making wealthy guys wealthier. "Liberal" is moniker attached to change groups, and everything that used to be normal American politics.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Well I could have done everything possible to avoid combat in Vietnam and grown up and gone on to become president and then as president waged an "elective" war and then sent young men and women into harm's way, but that would have been hypocrisy beyond belief.
Come on folks, let's get busy and make sure that when our men and women come home from Iraq they receive the care they need. And let's back up those sentiments with funding. That's the real way to honor our vets.
And his war protestor predecessor who
never wore the uniform
didn't send soldier's into harm's way?
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Well I could have done everything possible to avoid combat in Vietnam and grown up and gone on to become president and then as president waged an "elective" war and then sent young men and women into harm's way, but that would have been hypocrisy beyond belief.
You instead did everything possible to protect
yourself while at the same time doing all you and your anti-war crowd could do to make it harder on those brave enough to stand in harm's way in Vietnam.
Feh. The anti-war crowd didn't make it hard on the soldiers in Vietnam. The idiot generals and the stupid politicians did. It's always the soldiers who take the brunt of dumb wars.