Oklahoma City moves closer to bringing Supersonics to Oklahoma!
lSeattle Times
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003990107_sonicsmove03m.html
Gotta say, the way the ownership is handling this thing, the Sonics when they move to OKC, will be as bad at the Memphis Grizzlies.
I remember when ole Hugh Culverhouse died, the old owner of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. While a bummer, everyone knew Hugh was keeping that team down by trying to field a team on the cheap. And, when he died, Tampa got better, no more 14 straight 10 or more losing seasons, they even won a Super Bowl.
And to all the Tulsa people that think this is a good deal, that $500 Million stadium they're asking for, they're looking for that from the State of Washington. If they end up in OKC, Tulsa may end up paying for a stadium over there, and having no choice about it. Just saying.
state $$$ for MLS soccer stadium in Tulsa... in exchange?... just sayin'...
Well, it's just as likely that Tulsa would have to build it's own stadium, while getting stiffed by the State.
Now that's would be a great little irony. Build an 18,000-plus seat arena so that you have the potential to eventually lure the NBA or NHL and suddenly it's obsolete five years later or how ever long it's been since Ford Center was completed.
I didn't know until Fedex Center opened in Memphis that the now obsolete Pyramid in Memphis had only been open since around 1991 or 1992. These mega-arenas seem to have a short shelf life. Then what do you do with them?
Reunion Arena was only 20 or so years old before it was replaced by AA Center. Net seating increase was only about 2500 seats.
I really don't get this:
OKC: 1.2 million metro, per capita income of $19, metro area economic product $43.1B.
Seattle: 3.2 mi, people, income of $30K, GMP $155B
Seattle's Arena had a $95mil renovation done in 1992.
The Ford center was built for a cost of $89mil in 2002.
The new stadium the Sonics "needed" to stay in Seattle was $500,000,000.00.
Attendance average in Seattle is 16,000 - in two seasons in OKC it went from 18.5K to 17.8K charging $15 less per ticket than Seattle averages.
So they are moving from a large rich town with a $92mil arena to a small poor town with an $85mil arena. They will have more fans attending, but can charge them less - assuming the novelty doesn't wear off. They are going from a $92mil arena to an $85mil arena but need a $500mil arena (or $750 from everyone in OKC with a job).
More power to OKC, this would be a really neat deal for them. But I just don't see the math in that. And the move is certainly not a done deal. They have an arena lease through 2010 and the city passed a law PROHIBITING the arena management from accepting a buyout. When Bennett sued the judge ruled his attempt to sidestep his contract "is as errant as a typical Shaquille O'Neal free throw."
[edit]Most data was pulled from Wiki so feel free to verify, I'm lazy ok?[/edit]
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If they do move I'll be happy. That would be an exciting thing for OKC. However, if they want a stinking DIME of state money I hope they get sent packing. I'm in the business of subsidizing all the athletics I care to by watching them on TV, going to the games, buying season tickets, and donating money to my alma maters (Go Drillers, go TU, go UNI, go Cubbies).
However, I do small a handout either to make the move "financially viable" or as a "you did not support us like we thought you would" in a few years. Hope I'm wrong, but judging by the way he is treating Seattle this wont end well.
OH, and formerly unknown Oklahoma has improved in the Seattle area to known and hated:
(http://www.tulsaworld.com/articleimages/2007/071103_B4_hOKCm26273_b4sonics3.jpg)
Fodder, I think Clay Bennett is doing this as some sort of philanthrophy for OKC. He KNOWS the numbers aren't as good in OKC, but wants to bring something to town to improve the quality of life and perhaps be a catalyst for more development there. As a billionaire businessman, he is probably embarassed to invite other businessmen to a town that has virtually no amenities or things to do. I imagine just having pro sports in a town does wonders for the night life as well. Even with the reduced profits he will make in OKC, he gets benefit from moving the team there.
The NBA, on the other hand, I don't know how it really helps them to vacate a large market like Seattle. Especially from a TV ratings standpoint, most sports only get killer ratings when large market teams are doing well and in the playoffs etc.
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
Well, it's just as likely that Tulsa would have to build it's own stadium, while getting stiffed by the State.
Just think it'd be silly for Tulsa pols to not have a bargaining chip to use to counter OKC's desire for state NBA $$$ (they already used revenue guarantees to attract George Shinn/N.O. Hornets but didn't end up having to use them).
A few years ago, LaFortune's admin was trying to lobby the state for an "empowerment/enterprise zone"? (sorry, can't remember the exact term used). It was supposed to be along the lines of how the Kansas Speedway got built...
The NBA gives OKC great exposure. It's exciting for the city. And the state. And yes, I think Clay Bennett is being a bit of a philanthropist here spending hundreds of millions of dollars in trying to get OKC a team...
David Stern had some pretty harsh comments for Seattle in the sports section this morning. Basically he's telling them if they let the Sonics get away, he doesn't see how the NBA can return to Washington.
Honestly, I'm sick and tired of hearing about pro sports teams hi-jacking cities and states for spiffy new arenas and stadiums. 3.2 mm people in Seattle and only 20K can go to a game at a time. And that was a state-wide tax initiative. Probably time someone put their foot down.
Maybe, maybe not. Again, the way these owners are handling this (trying to hold the State of Washington hostage), I'm not sure they're interested in being philanthropists, as much as they are making a profit. Which means, if they move to OKC, doing it on the cheap.
They're probably already talking to politicians in the state about a new stadium. I think it's a good thing for the state generally, but not necessarily good for Tulsa.
Watch them build a new arena in OKc......
quote:
Originally posted by Breadburner
Watch them build a new arena in OKc......
It has to happen. The Ford center is not anywhere near NBA specs. Yeah they can play there for a while, but the deal would be set in stone pretty quick (unless, again, the owners are not interested in the team's success). They can't play at Ford forever. They'd be the only team in a cheap bread box, in the entire NBA.
Yet one more reason pro-sports is of little interest to me anymore. It's not about the game, it's all about the money.
(http://www.teamw2w.com/content/uploads/images/progress/Show-Me-The-Money.jpg)
You had me at "cheap breadbox". [:P]
The Ford Center was built at a bargain; also, it was built to do just that--help attract an NHL and NBA franchise.
One of the most noted authorities Rick Horrow (Horrow Sports based in Florida) was the consultant for the Ford Center. Mr. Horrow explained what Oklahoma City would need to attract a team.
The Ford Center will replace the Myriad's 13,500-seat Great Arena which will be use and gutted for exhibition space which is badly needed at the Cox Business Services Center (Myriad).
There are plans to build something in the neighborhood of 21,000-seats with 75-90 luxury suites and 2,000 - 3000 club seats within five years of an NBA or NHL teams coming to OKC.
quote:
Originally posted by Laramie
The Ford Center was built at a bargain; also, it was built to do just that--help attract an NHL and NBA franchise.
. . .
There are plans to build something in the neighborhood of 21,000-seats with 75-90 luxury suites and 2,000 - 3000 club seats within five years of an NBA or NHL teams coming to OKC.
1) The words bargain and "attract [pro team]" are not really used in the same sentence. While it will provide the venue, the Center itself is not what is attracting them. Its the owner...
2) Where are these plans you speak of? Cities like Minneapolis/St. Paul, Dallas/Ft. Worth, Chicago... they support two large arenas AND a convention center. I'm thinking OKC would be hard pressed to do so.
Just haven't heard those rumors yet.
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
Maybe, maybe not. Again, the way these owners are handling this (trying to hold the State of Washington hostage), I'm not sure they're interested in being philanthropists, as much as they are making a profit. Which means, if they move to OKC, doing it on the cheap.
They're probably already talking to politicians in the state about a new stadium. I think it's a good thing for the state generally, but not necessarily good for Tulsa.
The point of what they did to Seattle was to make an outrageous demand they knew couldnt be met so they would have a REASON to move to OKC. Bennett and co. bought out the Sonics SPECIFICALLY to bring them to OKC. This was after they saw the success of the Hornets in OKC and thought it was FEASIBLE. They don't care if it is more profitable than Seattle, just that it is feasible. Most of the money behind the Sonics ownership now is OKC money anyway. And the guys probably all have other interests in OKC that will flourish (and benefit them) from having pro sports in town.
Doesn't sound right. I guess crapping all over Seattle is one way to do it, but that doesn't sound right. They don't need a reason, they can announce the move, and just move. Just like many other teams.
Bet they'll be looking for the same thing out of the state of Oklahoma. And they probably already have it locked up.
Why anyone would want owners that would purposefully crap on a state, I don't know.
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
Doesn't sound right. I guess crapping all over Seattle is one way to do it, but that doesn't sound right. They don't need a reason, they can announce the move, and just move. Just like many other teams.
Bet they'll be looking for the same thing out of the state of Oklahoma. And they probably already have it locked up.
Why anyone would want owners that would purposefully crap on a state, I don't know.
When one is wealthy, they can pretty much crap all over people with impunity.
quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan
The point of what they did to Seattle was to make an outrageous demand they knew couldnt be met so they would have a REASON to move to OKC. Bennett and co. bought out the Sonics SPECIFICALLY to bring them to OKC. This was after they saw the success of the Hornets in OKC and thought it was FEASIBLE. They don't care if it is more profitable than Seattle, just that it is feasible. Most of the money behind the Sonics ownership now is OKC money anyway. And the guys probably all have other interests in OKC that will flourish (and benefit them) from having pro sports in town.
^^ +1That's EXACTLY what they're doing. Evidently, the ENDS justifies the MEANS. [:O]
And there is no doubt in my mind that they'll be talking about getting state $$$ for this in the next 5 or so years... so, instead of saying "no, no, no" and being perceived as sore losers spiteful of OKC for getting a major league franchise, how 'bout Tulsa pols ask for their "share"???
I just watch professional sports casually...because I'm a huge sports fan.
This team will come and go, it's nothing but a business. I'll stick to the college game for my loyalty.
I saw it happen with Charlotte with the Hornets and I'm seeing it again with this...
I'm waiting to see them move to Kansas City which has better demographics and a nicer arena and tick off OKC.
Don't forget they have a BUILT IN advertising linkage to Sonic Corp. which is headquartered in OKC. I'd put odds at over 90% that a new arena would be heavily assisted by money from Sonic for naming rights. As they have expanded aggressively over the last several years, one of the things Sonic has been known for is running national spots and advertising in markets they havent entered yet (but plan to) - Having their name all over an NBA team and arena fits that style. If you haven't noticed from living in Oklahoma, they have been expanding at a feverish pace, taking markets all over the country and saturating them with stores about as much as they do here (meaning, a Sonic every damn mile)
Kind of funny when you think about it how QT and Sonic have both been on huge expansions lately. All of these cities around the country are turning into Tulsa :D
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan
The point of what they did to Seattle was to make an outrageous demand they knew couldnt be met so they would have a REASON to move to OKC. Bennett and co. bought out the Sonics SPECIFICALLY to bring them to OKC. This was after they saw the success of the Hornets in OKC and thought it was FEASIBLE. They don't care if it is more profitable than Seattle, just that it is feasible. Most of the money behind the Sonics ownership now is OKC money anyway. And the guys probably all have other interests in OKC that will flourish (and benefit them) from having pro sports in town.
^^ +1
That's EXACTLY what they're doing. Evidently, the ENDS justifies the MEANS. [:O]
And there is no doubt in my mind that they'll be talking about getting state $$$ for this in the next 5 or so years... so, instead of saying "no, no, no" and being perceived as sore losers spiteful of OKC for getting a major league franchise, how 'bout Tulsa pols ask for their "share"???
I might be for it if there were a "chicken in every pot" aspect to it. No I'm not a pro ball kind of guy anymore, but I'll cop to it being a good regional draw and improves the image. I'm just sick and tired of hearing players and owners constantly sniping about money and wanting more and more. Let OKC have their team and a mega-arena, and give us the river.
It's really strange that evertime Oklahoma City looms to prosper, some of you Tulsans get all bent out of shape. When it was announced that the Hornets would relocate here temporarily--many said then that Oklahoma City couldn't support them.
I truly believe that if Oklahoma City can support an NBA team, Tulsa can support an NHL franchise as well.
It would be nice to have an NHL team in Tulsa and an NBA franchise in Oklahoma City.
If you guys ever put $500 million into the development of the Arkansas River you're going to bolt miles ahead of OKC? Looks like there is a lot jealously among the towns even around Tulsa--what a shame!
Tulsa is a much cleaner, nicer and more beautiful city that Oklahoma City; however, you're just not as ambitious!
quote:
Originally posted by Laramie
It's really strange that evertime Oklahoma City looms to prosper, some of you Tulsans get all bent out of shape. When it was announced that the Hornets would relocate here temporarily--many said then that Oklahoma City couldn't support them.
I truly believe that if Oklahoma City can support an NBA team, Tulsa can support an NHL franchise as well.
It would be nice to have an NHL team in Tulsa and an NBA franchise in Oklahoma City.
If you guys ever put $500 million into the development of the Arkansas River you're going to bolt miles ahead of OKC? Looks like there is a lot jealously among the towns even around Tulsa--what a shame!
Tulsa is a much cleaner, nicer and more beautiful city that Oklahoma City; however, you're just not as ambitious!
See Laramie, it's basically because OKC sucks and no one can find a rational reason for our lesser neighbor down the Turner to get something which rightfully should be ours, just because we are Tulsans.
What's the major forum name down in OKC just so I can log in for four or five posts and take a big crap?
OKCTalk; Hope to hear from you my good man!
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by Laramie
It's really strange that evertime Oklahoma City looms to prosper, some of you Tulsans get all bent out of shape. When it was announced that the Hornets would relocate here temporarily--many said then that Oklahoma City couldn't support them.
I truly believe that if Oklahoma City can support an NBA team, Tulsa can support an NHL franchise as well.
It would be nice to have an NHL team in Tulsa and an NBA franchise in Oklahoma City.
If you guys ever put $500 million into the development of the Arkansas River you're going to bolt miles ahead of OKC? Looks like there is a lot jealously among the towns even around Tulsa--what a shame!
Tulsa is a much cleaner, nicer and more beautiful city that Oklahoma City; however, you're just not as ambitious!
See Laramie, it's basically because OKC sucks and no one can find a rational reason for our lesser neighbor down the Turner to get something which rightfully should be ours, just because we are Tulsans.
What's the major forum name down in OKC just so I can log in for four or five posts and take a big crap?
Well, I can't tell you what Laramie did
last summer, but I
can tell you what he was doing in the
summer of 2002...
MLS Expansion: Oklahoma City vs. Tulsa--A Tale of Two Cities! posted 26 Jul 2002 by Laramie4OKChttp://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3135
Oklahoma City area gaining momentum in MLS stadium race. posted 17 Aug 2002 by Laramie4OKChttp://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8147
Oklahoma City suburb prepares for MLS stadium bond vote. posted 13 Aug 2002 by Laramie4OKChttp://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7006