The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

From http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071030_1_A14_hTheP58503

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Tulsa dentist questions sidewalk enforcement

by: KEVIN CANFIELD World Staff Writer
10/30/2007

The Planning Commission wanted her to build a new sidewalk, or pay an equivalent fee.


The Tulsa Metropolitan Area Planning Commission's decision to begin enforcing a longstanding sidewalk policy has hit a bump in the road put there by a local dentist.

Kathryn Beller is questioning the procedures and logic that led to the Planning Commission rejecting her request to waive the requirement to have a sidewalk at her new office at 7711 E. 81st St.

"I feel their (the Planning Commission's) decision was based on black and white with no shades of gray," Beller wrote in a letter to Mayor Kathy Taylor. ". . . Their decision is a prime example of bureaucracy out of control."

The Planning Commission's Oct. 3 rejection of the waiver request came about one month after it had offered Beller an alternative: She could pay a fee equal to the cost to build the sidewalk -- estimated by the city to be $2,800 -- that would be put in escrow until 81st Street is widened, at which time the money would be used to construct sidewalks.

Beller wanted no part of it.

In her letter to the mayor, Beller says the Planning Commission was unable to answer basic questions about how the sidewalk escrow fund works.

"Legal council present on September 5th admitted that they, TMAPC, were on shaky ground because they had no answers to our questions regarding the 'sidewalk escrow fund,' " Beller's letter states.

She also says she's concerned about liability for injuries on the sidewalk and the city's estimated sidewalk fee.

"Let me inform you that I could pour this sidewalk for $1,700," Beller writes.

Planning Commission Chairman Chip Ard said that the fee-in-lieu-of-construction option was developed by the commission in the last year, but acknowledged it may not be formalized in any manner.

Ard said the commission sees the sidewalk fee as a constructive alternative in those instances when safety concerns or topography make the sidewalk requirement questionable.

It is rare, he said, that the commission would waive the fee. "If you can show us good reason that you shouldn't have to do it (put in a sidewalk), then we drop the fee-in-lieu of," he said.

Beller's case is just the second involving the fee-in-lieu-of-construction option.

City subdivision and planned unit development regulations have required sidewalks since the 1970s, but for years waivers have been easy to come by.

Ard said the commission is committed to enforcing the sidewalk regulations because "it's an important thing for our city to be walkable, and it helps everyone."

"If you don't start requiring sidewalks consistently, it's never going to happen," he said.

In her request for a waiver, Beller cites three factors: safety, the topography of the adjacent property to the east (which slopes into a creek) and the fact there are no other sidewalks on either side of East 81st Street between Memorial Drive an Sheridan Road save for the westernmost stretch at the Sheridan Road intersection.

Subdivision regulations state that topography and safety shall be considered when deciding on a sidewalk waiver, but make no mention of whether there are existing sidewalks in the area.

Ard said there were some gray areas in Beller's case but "no overwhelming need to waive" the sidewalk requirement.

Beller has also sought the assistance of her city councilman, Bill Christiansen.

Christiansen said he favors a comprehensive sidewalk policy, but called the proposed 73-foot sidewalk in front of Beller's property "the sidewalk to nowhere."

Christiansen said the fee option needs to be developed through the public process and adopted by the city council.

"In this instance, the bureaucracy let this small business down," he said.

City officials are working to arrange a meeting with Beller to discuss her concerns.

Beller's temporary certificate of occupancy expires Nov. 30.

"I don't know what they (the city) can do if I don't have" the sidewalk built by then, Beller said Friday.

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are the other properties on 81st between sheridan and memorial (with 81st frontage) commercial as well? if memory serves, on the you've got strip malls at either end of 81st and a church in the middle, an apartment complex and residential developments... so, the strip mall to the west and, i guess, the walmart market have sidewalks?... but the strip malls immediately to the east of her do not?

this is bull****, sidewalks to nowhere eventually get connected to somewhere... but you have to put them in up front or they'll never exist...
she sounds wacked. tell her to do another crown and shut the hell up.

"Beller's temporary certificate of occupancy expires Nov. 30.
"I don't know what they (the city) can do if I don't have" the sidewalk built by then, Beller said Friday. ".... ummmm, let me guess, not give you a permanent certificate of occupancy?

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Originally posted by brunoflipper

are the other properties on 81st between sheridan and memorial (with 81st frontage) commercial as well? if memory serves, on the you've got strip malls at either end of 81st and a church in the middle, an apartment complex and residential developments... so, the strip mall to the west and, i guess, the walmart market have sidewalks?... but the strip malls immediately to the east of her do not?

this is bull****, sidewalks to nowhere eventually get connected to somewhere... but you have to put them in up front or they'll never exist...
she sounds wacked. tell her to do another crown and shut the hell up.

"Beller's temporary certificate of occupancy expires Nov. 30.
"I don't know what they (the city) can do if I don't have" the sidewalk built by then, Beller said Friday. ".... ummmm, let me guess, not give you a permanent certificate of occupancy?

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If she has a temporary certificate of occupancy and it expires, I imagine she could start being fined - something like $500 a day for occupying a building and not having a C.O. if memory serve...
She sounds like a real hag.  Just build the stupid thing, it's not like $1700 is a big amount in the context of building a commerical building!

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Originally posted by tulsa1603

QuoteOriginally posted by brunoflipper

this is bull****, sidewalks to nowhere eventually get connected to somewhere... but you have to put them in up front or they'll never exist...
she sounds wacked. tell her to do another crown and shut the hell up.


She sounds like a real hag.  Just build the stupid thing, it's not like $1700 is a big amount in the context of building a commerical building!

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You guys are real good about spouting off about things you obviously know nothing about.  The article itself plainly states that the sidewalk doesn't make sense in this location.

Here's a look at it from Google maps:
Edit: I can't get all the link to be underlined for the complete link, so you'll have to copy and paste...
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=7711+E.+81st+St+Tulsa,+OK,+United+States+of+America&sll=36.046206,-95.901278&sspn=0.002073,0.003616&ie=UTF8&ll=36.046228,-95.890989&spn=0.004147,0.007231&t=k&z=17&om=1

See for yourself and tell me why a sidewalk is needed in front of her building...unless they are putting in sidewals all the way down the street and connecting into the neighborhood the building is next to, it is pointless.

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Originally posted by jackbristow

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Originally posted by tulsa1603

QuoteOriginally posted by brunoflipper

this is bull****, sidewalks to nowhere eventually get connected to somewhere... but you have to put them in up front or they'll never exist...
she sounds wacked. tell her to do another crown and shut the hell up.


She sounds like a real hag.  Just build the stupid thing, it's not like $1700 is a big amount in the context of building a commerical building!

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You guys are real good about spouting off about things you obviously know nothing about.  The article itself plainly states that the sidewalk doesn't make sense in this location.

Here's a look at it from Google maps:
Edit: I can't get all the link to be underlined for the complete link, so you'll have to copy and paste...
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=7711+E.+81st+St+Tulsa,+OK,+United+States+of+America&sll=36.046206,-95.901278&sspn=0.002073,0.003616&ie=UTF8&ll=36.046228,-95.890989&spn=0.004147,0.007231&t=k&z=17&om=1

See for yourself and tell me why a sidewalk is needed in front of her building...unless they are putting in sidewals all the way down the street and connecting into the neighborhood the building is next to, it is pointless.

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You seem awfully well knowledge about who knows what. You can almost see my house in that picture. If the city plans sidewalks in that area and the regulations are for sidewalks in that area, you build one. It seemed to state pretty clearly that they are planning on widening 81st and adding sidewalks and that is why it is required. It doesn't matter what the neighbors are doing or have done in the past.

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Originally posted by sgrizzle

If the city plans sidewalks in that area and the regulations are for sidewalks in that area, you build one. It seemed to state pretty clearly that they are planning on widening 81st and adding sidewalks and that is why it is required. It doesn't matter what the neighbors are doing or have done in the past.

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The developers of Utica Place actually sued the TMAPC in an effort to avoid building a sidewalk along Utica Avenue.  They contended that since Utica Square and Cascia Hall did not have sidewalks, then they ought not be forced to install one.  Last I heard the suit was close to settlement.  Does anyone know how it turned out?

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Originally posted by booWorld

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Originally posted by sgrizzle

If the city plans sidewalks in that area and the regulations are for sidewalks in that area, you build one. It seemed to state pretty clearly that they are planning on widening 81st and adding sidewalks and that is why it is required. It doesn't matter what the neighbors are doing or have done in the past.

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The developers of Utica Place actually sued the TMAPC in an effort to avoid building a sidewalk along Utica Avenue.  They contended that since Utica Square and Cascia Hall did not have sidewalks, then they ought not be forced to install one.  Last I heard the suit was close to settlement.  Does anyone know how it turned out?

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Don't know how the Court case went, however, Cascia has a development planned for some of the vacant land to the North of the school.

They will be required to place sidewalks on that portion of Utica when they move forward with the development.

Nothing new with respect to the court case on Utica.  Interestingly, just like the dentist, the developer at Utica said that he shouldn't have build a sidewalk, because no sidewalks existed nearby (ie, a sidewalk to nowhere). Now that Cascia is building one, you'll have sidewalks along a good chunk of Utica, leading from a school to a shopping center.  You never know when property might be redeveloped, and, bit by bit, you start connecting sidewalks.  You have to start somewhere; if you don't require it today, you cannot require it tomorrow.  Or ever.

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Originally posted by pmcalk

Nothing new with respect to the court case on Utica.  Interestingly, just like the dentist, the developer at Utica said that he shouldn't have build a sidewalk, because no sidewalks existed nearby (ie, a sidewalk to nowhere). Now that Cascia is building one, you'll have sidewalks along a good chunk of Utica, leading from a school to a shopping center.  You never know when property might be redeveloped, and, bit by bit, you start connecting sidewalks.  You have to start somewhere; if you don't require it today, you cannot require it tomorrow.  Or ever.

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I am very glad the TMAPC is making these developers put in the sidewalks..

It will lead to a much more people oriented City....

Rico is right.

Sidewalks are important. How much did this development cost? The sidewalk probably added a a fraction of one percent to the overall cost, yet they don't think they need it.

We need to support the TMAPC on this one. Make sidewalks happen, every time.

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Originally posted by sgrizzle

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You seem awfully well knowledge about who knows what. You can almost see my house in that picture. If the city plans sidewalks in that area and the regulations are for sidewalks in that area, you build one. It seemed to state pretty clearly that they are planning on widening 81st and adding sidewalks and that is why it is required. It doesn't matter what the neighbors are doing or have done in the past.

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I was just coming to the lady's defense because of the name-calling that was going on ("hag", etc.) She has a valid point and those involved with her case acknowledge that in the story.  So you live near that area and I used to live near that area, who cares?  

Unless they plan on re-doing the entire street, I would do exactly what she is doing.  For her to build a sidewalk is pointless unless they can show her how it would fit into a larger plan and actually follow through with that plan.

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Originally posted by jackbristow

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Originally posted by sgrizzle

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You seem awfully well knowledge about who knows what. You can almost see my house in that picture. If the city plans sidewalks in that area and the regulations are for sidewalks in that area, you build one. It seemed to state pretty clearly that they are planning on widening 81st and adding sidewalks and that is why it is required. It doesn't matter what the neighbors are doing or have done in the past.

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I was just coming to the lady's defense because of the name-calling that was going on ("hag", etc.) She has a valid point and those involved with her case acknowledge that in the story.  So you live near that area and I used to live near that area, who cares?  

Unless they plan on re-doing the entire street, I would do exactly what she is doing.  For her to build a sidewalk is pointless unless they can show her how it would fit into a larger plan and actually follow through with that plan.

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You're right, I shouldn't have called her a name.  I just get bent out of shape when people don't understand the point of what I think is a very valid requirement.

If we don't require sidewalks as part of development we will never have them.  It's just like having individuals who develop residential and commercial subdivisions put in or make improvements to streets.  God knows we would stand for someone putting in a significant development refusing to put in adequate streets.  Consider the sidewalk in the same light.  They are a necessary element in a quality built environment and we unfortunately have ignored them for far too long.  Now that we are playing catch up we have to insert them piecemeal when we reconstruct a street or have them constructed when a property is developed.  So what there are no sidewalks around.  Eventually there will be and hers will connect.  If she doesn't like this cost of construction maybe she should find herself an existing space and not worry about development.  
Would we rather continue to tell individuals in the surrounding residential compounds that they have to traipse through the grass and mudd and she eventually has cow trails in front of her pristine temporary dentist office?  Or should the City foot the bill for all sidewalks on every street?  

However, the City should have a better organized fee in lieu of system.  It's not hard to establish.  I know that surrounding suburban cities have the fee and utilize it with ease.  

The irritating thing of this is that we are even having the argument.  Never mind bike lanes and transit we have to mess with simple sidewalks.

It does fit in the larger plan. There aren't sidewalks there. The city wants sidewalks there. It has to start somewhere, so it starts with the dentist's office.

Just because there's a precedent for wrong-headed planning doesn't mean such planning should continue.

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Originally posted by pmcalk

Nothing new with respect to the court case on Utica.  Interestingly, just like the dentist, the developer at Utica said that he shouldn't have build a sidewalk, because no sidewalks existed nearby (ie, a sidewalk to nowhere). Now that Cascia is building one, you'll have sidewalks along a good chunk of Utica, leading from a school to a shopping center.  You never know when property might be redeveloped, and, bit by bit, you start connecting sidewalks.  You have to start somewhere; if you don't require it today, you cannot require it tomorrow.  Or ever.

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I'd really like to know what happened with the Utica Place LLC v. Tulsa Metropolitan Area Planning Commission (//%22http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/GetCaseInformation.asp?number=TU-CJ-2005-5878&db=Tulsa&submitted=true%22) case.  Was it administratively reassigned in January because of Judge Peterson's departure from the bench?

I don't care for this trend of developers balking at the idea of building sidewalks as reported in a Tulsa World news story (//%22http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=060731_Ne_A1_Devel33631%22) in July 2006.  I want to see a clear ruling by the court, not a settlement.  The TMAPC should not agree to any settlement which involves NOT building a sidewalk.  Tulsa needs more sidewalks.

The "sidewalk to nowhere" argument really chaps my a**.  Worse is when somebody decides to update the landscaping in their yard, tear out EXISTING sidewalks, and then PLANT TREES where the sidewalk used to be.  (I've seen this more than a few times in Maple Ridge...a neighborhood old enough to have existing sidewalks.)  First one person does it, then another...and pretty soon..."Well, I shouldn't have to build a sidewalk to nowhere..."

Speaking of sidewalks and the Utica development... Just the other day, I was driving on Utica just south of 22nd Place.  A little old lady was walking south on Utica ON THE STREET, carrying her shopping bags.  She was obviously not comfortable with the "eco-challenge" pedestrian option of "off-roading" it in the grass.  She needed some smooth pavement...and the only place she could find it was in the street.  Seeing this made me feel ashamed for our city.  But proud that the TMAPC has started standing their ground on the issue.

I am continually amazed that, after all these years, Utica and other major arterial streets don't have sidewalks.  It's ridiculous that people have to risk their lives just to walk someplace nearby. ...or stumble over dirt and grass (in lieu of sidewalks).

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Originally posted by PonderInc

The "sidewalk to nowhere" argument really chaps my a**.  Worse is when somebody decides to update the landscaping in their yard, tear out EXISTING sidewalks, and then PLANT TREES where the sidewalk used to be.  (I've seen this more than a few times in Maple Ridge...a neighborhood old enough to have existing sidewalks.)  First one person does it, then another...and pretty soon..."Well, I shouldn't have to build a sidewalk to nowhere..."

Speaking of sidewalks and the Utica development... Just the other day, I was driving on Utica just south of 22nd Place.  A little old lady was walking south on Utica ON THE STREET, carrying her shopping bags.  She was obviously not comfortable with the "eco-challenge" pedestrian option of "off-roading" it in the grass.  She needed some smooth pavement...and the only place she could find it was in the street.  Seeing this made me feel ashamed for our city.  But proud that the TMAPC has started standing their ground on the issue.

I am continually amazed that, after all these years, Utica and other major arterial streets don't have sidewalks.  It's ridiculous that people have to risk their lives just to walk someplace nearby. ...or stumble over dirt and grass (in lieu of sidewalks).

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your example is totally different then the dentists situation.  Its one thing to rip out existing sidewalk to plant trees, its another to have a 1 mile stretch of road without a sidewalk and try to force an establishment to waste money on a sidewalk that leads to nothing. Have you driven by there lately? there is a good 40-60ft of dense trees, and creekbed.  So lets say she does go ahead and get the sidewalk put in...whats next? wait 3-8 more years for them to widen 81st between sheridan and memorial and more then likely tear up the existing sidewalk to widen the street?  This has to be one of the stupidest things I have ever heard of in Tulsa.  If the forest of trees didnt exist, then I can maybe understand why they would force her to have it.  

The person above is right, it has to start somewhere, but why not just wait till start to widen 81st and then incorporate sidewalks on both sides between sheridan and memorial.  That would be more logical IMO.

The ordinance states that sidewalks are required.  What makes this person so special that it doesn't apply to her?

She's in the medical profession, and she doesn't understand the value of a sidewalk?  I have no sympathy for her.

The sidewalk will, one day, connect to something.  Put some braces on a kid, fork over the 1700 bones, and build the sidewalk.  It is asinine, and any argument against it is also asinine.

Channel eight takes the side of the dentist...

http://www.ktul.com/news/stories/1007/468445.html

City Requires Dentist To Build 'Sidewalk To Nowhere'  

Wed October 31, 2007

A little-known law is forcing a Tulsa business owner to build a sidewalk to nowhere.  
         

Dr. Kathryn Beller is a local dentist who is opening a new clinic on 81st Street. The 81-foot long sidewalk would be built in front of Dr. Beller's new office. The City says the whole purpose of the law is to make the city more walkable. The only problem is, if you walk one direction, you head into a creek bed. Go the other way, you end up nowhere. If you take a walk down 81st Street, you won't find a sidewalk on either side of the road. But, that hasn't stopped the city from requiring Beller to build one. But she refused. The sidewalk would end up near a creek bed -- a hazard for pedestrians, a liability for her. The other direction's not much better.

"You walk your 81 feet."
"What happens when you get up there?"
"You turn around and come back."

The law designed to make Tulsa more walkable won't get you very far. "The city just started enforcing the law and only new businesses have to comply," Beller says.

Dwain Midget is the Mayor's representative on the Tulsa Planning Board. He admits the City has been lax in the past, but now is serious about making Tulsa walkable. "We have to start somewhere and sidewalks connect with each other," he says. But, City Councilor Bill Christensen says while he's all for sidewalks, this one is a dead end. "There are exceptions to every rule," he says. "And this is a good example of it with a sidewalk to nowhere."

Dr. Beller says it's not about money. But, if she has to pay, so should everyone else. "I don't think it's just about a sidewalk," she says. "It's about what city government is doing." When Dr. Beller refused to build the sidewalk, the City offered to let her pay 28-hundred dollars into a 'sidewalk fund' for future sidewalk improvements. But, we found out the sidewalk fund doesn't exist. In fact, Councilor Christiansen says it's not even allowed unless it is voted on by city councilors.

And, even if Dr. Beller builds the sidewalk, it could soon be ripped by the City. 81st Street could be widened as part of a future bond issue. Then, Beller's sidewalk would be ripped out and new sidewalks built along the entire street.

The most laughable part of the story is when the dentist says, "It's not about the money."

Whenever someone says that...it is about the money. She built a new office on 81st street...probably cost her hundreds of thousands for the land and who knows how much for the building. She doesn't want to pay $1,700 for a sidewalk?

Whatta jerk. Pony up the dough so that someone can actually *walk* next to our streets, you cheapskate.

Every developed area in Tulsa was, at one time, wilderness: grassland, forests, creeks.

Imagine going back in time and hearing an argument against building sidewalks on Brookside, because "the sidewalk would dead end at Crow Creek!"

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Originally posted by sgrizzle

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Originally posted by jackbristow

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Originally posted by tulsa1603

QuoteOriginally posted by brunoflipper

this is bull****, sidewalks to nowhere eventually get connected to somewhere... but you have to put them in up front or they'll never exist...
she sounds wacked. tell her to do another crown and shut the hell up.


She sounds like a real hag.  Just build the stupid thing, it's not like $1700 is a big amount in the context of building a commerical building!

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You guys are real good about spouting off about things you obviously know nothing about.  The article itself plainly states that the sidewalk doesn't make sense in this location.

Here's a look at it from Google maps:
Edit: I can't get all the link to be underlined for the complete link, so you'll have to copy and paste...
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=7711+E.+81st+St+Tulsa,+OK,+United+States+of+America&sll=36.046206,-95.901278&sspn=0.002073,0.003616&ie=UTF8&ll=36.046228,-95.890989&spn=0.004147,0.007231&t=k&z=17&om=1

See for yourself and tell me why a sidewalk is needed in front of her building...unless they are putting in sidewals all the way down the street and connecting into the neighborhood the building is next to, it is pointless.

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You seem awfully well knowledge about who knows what. You can almost see my house in that picture. If the city plans sidewalks in that area and the regulations are for sidewalks in that area, you build one. It seemed to state pretty clearly that they are planning on widening 81st and adding sidewalks and that is why it is required. It doesn't matter what the neighbors are doing or have done in the past.

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While I agree with the notion of her needing to build the sidewalk to be in compliance...  I would actually be more hesitant to put a sidewalk in if 81st is about to be widened.  They would probably just tear it out during construction for utilities or some other thing that no one properly planned out to begin with.  I see it almost every time there is construction, they go and tear out perfectly good and new things because there is no master plan or coordination to construction.

Who said that the road in fron of her business is about to be widened?

I don't know of any identified funding for that.

I think that was just the dentist saying that as another excuse to not build a sidewalk.

Here's a thought: How about decent city wide comprehensive sidewalk MASTER PLANS and DETAILS. There are so so many stupid STUPID sidewalks in this fine city that it makes me wanna PUKE! But in order to do that we would need DECENT educated code enforcement officers. TULSA SIDEWALKS kinda SUCK. Glad I am not in a wheelchair or blind!
Tulsa really needs a curb and sidewalk and pedistrian ramp detail makeover!!!!!!!!
Tulsa please enforce building codes...please.

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Originally posted by recyclemichael

Who said that the road in fron of her business is about to be widened?

I don't know of any identified funding for that.

I think that was just the dentist saying that as another excuse to not build a sidewalk.

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It is not planned or funded by identified by TMAPC as an eventuality to which she could funds into an account for, in leiu of building now.

If the city tears up the sidewalk, wont they have to pay to have it replaced? If so, then the fact that it will be torn up at some unknown time in the future is irrelivant imo.

If they are going to start enforcing the law they need to do it in such a way that everyone who builds is not going to come at the city with excuses as to why they shouldnt have to build theirs. But this hassle is the perfect example of what happens when you have been lax about enforcing laws that are on the books, then suddenly decide to start again.

The city tore up streets, curbs and sidewalks in my neighborhood replacing some underground water lines. They replaced everything but the curbs, they just mushed little piles of asphalt in the gap.

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Originally posted by PonderInc

Every developed area in Tulsa was, at one time, wilderness: grassland, forests, creeks.

Imagine going back in time and hearing an argument against building sidewalks on Brookside, because "the sidewalk would dead end at Crow Creek!"

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maybe you havent been by the area in awhile but I completely agree with the dentist.  To the east of her establishment is a good 100yds of dense trees, creek, etc.  To the west is nothing but grass in front of a church and condos.  This sidewalk would benefit who? ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!  

If I wanted to walk from 81st and sheridan east to memorial I would walk on 99.8% grass and .2% sidewalk, that is absurd. And take a huge chance of getting hit by a car since people on 81st in that area drive like maniacs in and out of the neighborhoods.  Totally pointless and waste of money IMO.

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Originally posted by TUalum0982


maybe you havent been by the area in awhile but I completely agree with the dentist.  To the east of her establishment is a good 100yds of dense trees, creek, etc.  To the west is nothing but grass in front of a church and condos.  This sidewalk would benefit who? ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!  

If I wanted to walk from 81st and sheridan east to memorial I would walk on 99.8% grass and .2% sidewalk, that is absurd. And take a huge chance of getting hit by a car since people on 81st in that area drive like maniacs in and out of the neighborhoods.  Totally pointless and waste of money IMO.

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Funny thing about areas with 100% sidewalks, they started with 2%.

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Originally posted by sgrizzle

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Originally posted by TUalum0982


maybe you havent been by the area in awhile but I completely agree with the dentist.  To the east of her establishment is a good 100yds of dense trees, creek, etc.  To the west is nothing but grass in front of a church and condos.  This sidewalk would benefit who? ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!  

If I wanted to walk from 81st and sheridan east to memorial I would walk on 99.8% grass and .2% sidewalk, that is absurd. And take a huge chance of getting hit by a car since people on 81st in that area drive like maniacs in and out of the neighborhoods.  Totally pointless and waste of money IMO.

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Funny thing about areas with 100% sidewalks, they started with 2%.

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funny thing about a sidewalk that leads to over 100yds of dense trees.  I can assure you that the above sidewalks you are referring to did not have a football field worth of trees and a 2 lane road which is dangerous to walk on in the first place.

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Originally posted by TUalum0982

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Originally posted by sgrizzle

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Originally posted by TUalum0982


maybe you havent been by the area in awhile but I completely agree with the dentist.  To the east of her establishment is a good 100yds of dense trees, creek, etc.  To the west is nothing but grass in front of a church and condos.  This sidewalk would benefit who? ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!  

If I wanted to walk from 81st and sheridan east to memorial I would walk on 99.8% grass and .2% sidewalk, that is absurd. And take a huge chance of getting hit by a car since people on 81st in that area drive like maniacs in and out of the neighborhoods.  Totally pointless and waste of money IMO.

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Funny thing about areas with 100% sidewalks, they started with 2%.

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funny thing about a sidewalk that leads to over 100yds of dense trees.  I can assure you that the above sidewalks you are referring to did not have a football field worth of trees and a 2 lane road which is dangerous to walk on in the first place.

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Funny thing about dangerous roads.  Sidewalks make them much safer.

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Originally posted by pmcalk

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Originally posted by TUalum0982

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Originally posted by sgrizzle

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Originally posted by TUalum0982


maybe you havent been by the area in awhile but I completely agree with the dentist.  To the east of her establishment is a good 100yds of dense trees, creek, etc.  To the west is nothing but grass in front of a church and condos.  This sidewalk would benefit who? ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!  

If I wanted to walk from 81st and sheridan east to memorial I would walk on 99.8% grass and .2% sidewalk, that is absurd. And take a huge chance of getting hit by a car since people on 81st in that area drive like maniacs in and out of the neighborhoods.  Totally pointless and waste of money IMO.

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Funny thing about areas with 100% sidewalks, they started with 2%.

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funny thing about a sidewalk that leads to over 100yds of dense trees.  I can assure you that the above sidewalks you are referring to did not have a football field worth of trees and a 2 lane road which is dangerous to walk on in the first place.

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Funny thing about dangerous roads.  Sidewalks make them much safer.

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Funny thing about funny things is they're funny.

Go sidewalks!  Yayyyyyyy, sidewalks!

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Originally posted by pmcalk

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Originally posted by TUalum0982

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Originally posted by sgrizzle

quote:

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Originally posted by TUalum0982


maybe you havent been by the area in awhile but I completely agree with the dentist.  To the east of her establishment is a good 100yds of dense trees, creek, etc.  To the west is nothing but grass in front of a church and condos.  This sidewalk would benefit who? ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!  

If I wanted to walk from 81st and sheridan east to memorial I would walk on 99.8% grass and .2% sidewalk, that is absurd. And take a huge chance of getting hit by a car since people on 81st in that area drive like maniacs in and out of the neighborhoods.  Totally pointless and waste of money IMO.

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Funny thing about areas with 100% sidewalks, they started with 2%.

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funny thing about a sidewalk that leads to over 100yds of dense trees.  I can assure you that the above sidewalks you are referring to did not have a football field worth of trees and a 2 lane road which is dangerous to walk on in the first place.

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Funny thing about dangerous roads.  Sidewalks make them much safer.

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they will just have to cross that dangerous street to get to the sidewalk on the other side since those trees of atleast 100yds are in the way.  Our city has major problems, and they are *****ing about a stupid sidewalk to nowhere!! wow, we need some change at the top.

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Originally posted by TUalum0982

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Originally posted by pmcalk

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Originally posted by TUalum0982

quote:

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Originally posted by sgrizzle

quote:

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Originally posted by TUalum0982


maybe you havent been by the area in awhile but I completely agree with the dentist.  To the east of her establishment is a good 100yds of dense trees, creek, etc.  To the west is nothing but grass in front of a church and condos.  This sidewalk would benefit who? ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!  

If I wanted to walk from 81st and sheridan east to memorial I would walk on 99.8% grass and .2% sidewalk, that is absurd. And take a huge chance of getting hit by a car since people on 81st in that area drive like maniacs in and out of the neighborhoods.  Totally pointless and waste of money IMO.

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Funny thing about areas with 100% sidewalks, they started with 2%.

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funny thing about a sidewalk that leads to over 100yds of dense trees.  I can assure you that the above sidewalks you are referring to did not have a football field worth of trees and a 2 lane road which is dangerous to walk on in the first place.

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Funny thing about dangerous roads.  Sidewalks make them much safer.

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they will just have to cross that dangerous street to get to the sidewalk on the other side since those trees of atleast 100yds are in the way.  Our city has major problems, and they are *****ing about a stupid sidewalk to nowhere!! wow, we need some change at the top.

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   One problem with your suggestion there sport....

Policy regarding "sidewalks" does not come from the top..

Cheer Up...!  Buy a skateboard or something. [}:)]

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Originally posted by Rico

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Originally posted by TUalum0982

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Originally posted by pmcalk

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Originally posted by TUalum0982

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Originally posted by sgrizzle

quote:

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Originally posted by TUalum0982


maybe you havent been by the area in awhile but I completely agree with the dentist.  To the east of her establishment is a good 100yds of dense trees, creek, etc.  To the west is nothing but grass in front of a church and condos.  This sidewalk would benefit who? ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!  

If I wanted to walk from 81st and sheridan east to memorial I would walk on 99.8% grass and .2% sidewalk, that is absurd. And take a huge chance of getting hit by a car since people on 81st in that area drive like maniacs in and out of the neighborhoods.  Totally pointless and waste of money IMO.

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Funny thing about areas with 100% sidewalks, they started with 2%.

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funny thing about a sidewalk that leads to over 100yds of dense trees.  I can assure you that the above sidewalks you are referring to did not have a football field worth of trees and a 2 lane road which is dangerous to walk on in the first place.

---

Funny thing about dangerous roads.  Sidewalks make them much safer.

---

they will just have to cross that dangerous street to get to the sidewalk on the other side since those trees of atleast 100yds are in the way.  Our city has major problems, and they are *****ing about a stupid sidewalk to nowhere!! wow, we need some change at the top.

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   One problem with your suggestion there sport....

Policy regarding "sidewalks" does not come from the top..

Cheer Up...!  Buy a skateboard or something. [}:)]

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well actually it does, let me explain....

According to Oklahoma Statutes, the MAYOR, with approval of the City Council appoints 6 members to the TMAPC and the three County Commissioners (Miller, Perry, and Smaligo) each appoint a member, which totals 9.  Dont forget the Mayor and the chair of County Commission serve as ex-officio members as well, making 11 total members in the TMAPC.

Now do you see where I was coming from??  

oh how i hate attorneys....

So...Tu Alum...your point is that the current Mayor has appointed a couple of people to a nine member board, then the board voted to reject an application to waive rules, so we should change our Mayor and County commissioners?

How simplistic. This board deals with very difficult decisions every meeting, but should they vote on one application to deny waiving the rules for a development, we should fire the people who appoint them.  

I believe that most people who would have been asked to serve on this board would have voted to follow the rules, regardless of who appoints them.

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Originally posted by recyclemichael

So...Tu Alum...your point is that the current Mayor has appointed a couple of people to a nine member board, then the board voted to reject an application to waive rules, so we should change our Mayor and County commissioners?

How simplistic. This board deals with very difficult decisions every meeting, but should they vote on one application to deny waiving the rules for a development, we should fire the people who appoint them.  

I believe that most people who would have been asked to serve on this board would have voted to follow the rules, regardless of who appoints them.

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This is just one of the many reasons why I think we need a change at mayor and county commissioner.  Randy Miller is an idiot.  That report they did on channel 6 I think it was about Bells, etc made her look like a moron.  

I was simply explaining my post to the guy who called me "sport and go get my skateboard".

There are exceptions to every rule and loopholes as well.  IMO I think its totally asanine to place a sidewalk in front of the dentists office for NO ONE!

How many of you guys have actually driven by and looked at the area in question?  I drive by there daily and each day I think of the people on this board who actually side with TMAPC.  I also think what IDIOTS do we have on the TMAPC that think its necessary for a sidewalk there.

If this is the type of difficult decisions they are making every meeting, maybe they need to re evaluate their degree of difficulty for things.  

You make it sound like everyone in this country follows the rules to a T.  Have you ever driven through a red light? Have you ever sped on the highway? Or switched lanes without signaling?  Did you go turn yourself in and pay the fines because you didnt follow the rules?  

There are exceptions to every rule.  If you are having an emergency, its OK to speed down the road with your flashers on to get to the hospital, is it illegal? you bet ya.

Dont make it seem like this board has always followed the rules every single time, because they obviously have not.  

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Originally posted by TUalum0982

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Originally posted by recyclemichael

So...Tu Alum...your point is that the current Mayor has appointed a couple of people to a nine member board, then the board voted to reject an application to waive rules, so we should change our Mayor and County commissioners?

How simplistic. This board deals with very difficult decisions every meeting, but should they vote on one application to deny waiving the rules for a development, we should fire the people who appoint them.  

I believe that most people who would have been asked to serve on this board would have voted to follow the rules, regardless of who appoints them.

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This is just one of the many reasons why I think we need a change at mayor and county commissioner.  Randy Miller is an idiot.  That report they did on channel 6 I think it was about Bells, etc made her look like a moron.  

I was simply explaining my post to the guy who called me "sport and go get my skateboard".

There are exceptions to every rule and loopholes as well.  IMO I think its totally asanine to place a sidewalk in front of the dentists office for NO ONE!

How many of you guys have actually driven by and looked at the area in question?  I drive by there daily and each day I think of the people on this board who actually side with TMAPC.  I also think what IDIOTS do we have on the TMAPC that think its necessary for a sidewalk there.

If this is the type of difficult decisions they are making every meeting, maybe they need to re evaluate their degree of difficulty for things.  

You make it sound like everyone in this country follows the rules to a T.  Have you ever driven through a red light? Have you ever sped on the highway? Or switched lanes without signaling?  Did you go turn yourself in and pay the fines because you didnt follow the rules?  

There are exceptions to every rule.  If you are having an emergency, its OK to speed down the road with your flashers on to get to the hospital, is it illegal? you bet ya.

Dont make it seem like this board has always followed the rules every single time, because they obviously have not.  

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Randy Miller may indeed be an idiot.  Why is that a reason to fire the Mayor?

Don't forget that the dentist has the option of placing money into an escrow fund so that she won't have to look so asinine.

Sidewalks are necessary.  They have to start someplace.

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Originally posted by Chicken Little

quote:

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Originally posted by TUalum0982

quote:

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Originally posted by recyclemichael

So...Tu Alum...your point is that the current Mayor has appointed a couple of people to a nine member board, then the board voted to reject an application to waive rules, so we should change our Mayor and County commissioners?

How simplistic. This board deals with very difficult decisions every meeting, but should they vote on one application to deny waiving the rules for a development, we should fire the people who appoint them.  

I believe that most people who would have been asked to serve on this board would have voted to follow the rules, regardless of who appoints them.

---

This is just one of the many reasons why I think we need a change at mayor and county commissioner.  Randy Miller is an idiot.  That report they did on channel 6 I think it was about Bells, etc made her look like a moron.  

I was simply explaining my post to the guy who called me "sport and go get my skateboard".

There are exceptions to every rule and loopholes as well.  IMO I think its totally asanine to place a sidewalk in front of the dentists office for NO ONE!

How many of you guys have actually driven by and looked at the area in question?  I drive by there daily and each day I think of the people on this board who actually side with TMAPC.  I also think what IDIOTS do we have on the TMAPC that think its necessary for a sidewalk there.

If this is the type of difficult decisions they are making every meeting, maybe they need to re evaluate their degree of difficulty for things.  

You make it sound like everyone in this country follows the rules to a T.  Have you ever driven through a red light? Have you ever sped on the highway? Or switched lanes without signaling?  Did you go turn yourself in and pay the fines because you didnt follow the rules?  

There are exceptions to every rule.  If you are having an emergency, its OK to speed down the road with your flashers on to get to the hospital, is it illegal? you bet ya.

Dont make it seem like this board has always followed the rules every single time, because they obviously have not.  

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Randy Miller may indeed be an idiot.  Why is that a reason to fire the Mayor?

Don't forget that the dentist has the option of placing money into an escrow fund so that she won't have to look so asinine.

Sidewalks are necessary.  They have to start someplace.

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for starters, I think she did a horrible job on the whole police chief situation. secondly, the proposal for the toll bridge at 121st could have been handled differently.  meanwhile they decide to spend 56 million to move city hall, which in the long run will save the city money, but 20 million dollars for incidentals?? wish I had that kind of cushion when my bills were due.  

Meanwhile, our streets continue to get worse, and we are arguing over a section of sidewalk that in the near future will serve not a sole.  

You would think her past experience being secretary of commerce and tourism, she would want that toll bridge to bring more sales tax revenue to Tulsa, as well as work alot closer with the tulsa drillers to find a way to get them downtown.  

I hope the drillers do move out to Jenks,  more power to them, my home value will rise!

quote:

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Originally posted by TUalum0982

quote:

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Originally posted by Chicken Little

quote:

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Originally posted by TUalum0982

quote:

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Originally posted by recyclemichael

So...Tu Alum...your point is that the current Mayor has appointed a couple of people to a nine member board, then the board voted to reject an application to waive rules, so we should change our Mayor and County commissioners?

How simplistic. This board deals with very difficult decisions every meeting, but should they vote on one application to deny waiving the rules for a development, we should fire the people who appoint them.  

I believe that most people who would have been asked to serve on this board would have voted to follow the rules, regardless of who appoints them.

---

This is just one of the many reasons why I think we need a change at mayor and county commissioner.  Randy Miller is an idiot.  That report they did on channel 6 I think it was about Bells, etc made her look like a moron.  

I was simply explaining my post to the guy who called me "sport and go get my skateboard".

There are exceptions to every rule and loopholes as well.  IMO I think its totally asanine to place a sidewalk in front of the dentists office for NO ONE!

How many of you guys have actually driven by and looked at the area in question?  I drive by there daily and each day I think of the people on this board who actually side with TMAPC.  I also think what IDIOTS do we have on the TMAPC that think its necessary for a sidewalk there.

If this is the type of difficult decisions they are making every meeting, maybe they need to re evaluate their degree of difficulty for things.  

You make it sound like everyone in this country follows the rules to a T.  Have you ever driven through a red light? Have you ever sped on the highway? Or switched lanes without signaling?  Did you go turn yourself in and pay the fines because you didnt follow the rules?  

There are exceptions to every rule.  If you are having an emergency, its OK to speed down the road with your flashers on to get to the hospital, is it illegal? you bet ya.

Dont make it seem like this board has always followed the rules every single time, because they obviously have not.  

---

Randy Miller may indeed be an idiot.  Why is that a reason to fire the Mayor?

Don't forget that the dentist has the option of placing money into an escrow fund so that she won't have to look so asinine.

Sidewalks are necessary.  They have to start someplace.

---

for starters, I think she did a horrible job on the whole police chief situation. secondly, the proposal for the toll bridge at 121st could have been handled differently.  meanwhile they decide to spend 56 million to move city hall, which in the long run will save the city money, but 20 million dollars for incidentals?? wish I had that kind of cushion when my bills were due.  

Meanwhile, our streets continue to get worse, and we are arguing over a section of sidewalk that in the near future will serve not a sole.  

You would think her past experience being secretary of commerce and tourism, she would want that toll bridge to bring more sales tax revenue to Tulsa, as well as work alot closer with the tulsa drillers to find a way to get them downtown.  

I hope the drillers do move out to Jenks,  more power to them, my home value will rise!

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apartments dont go up in value.

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Originally posted by brunoflipper

quote:

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Originally posted by TUalum0982

quote:

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Originally posted by Chicken Little

quote:

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Originally posted by TUalum0982

quote:

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Originally posted by recyclemichael

So...Tu Alum...your point is that the current Mayor has appointed a couple of people to a nine member board, then the board voted to reject an application to waive rules, so we should change our Mayor and County commissioners?

How simplistic. This board deals with very difficult decisions every meeting, but should they vote on one application to deny waiving the rules for a development, we should fire the people who appoint them.  

I believe that most people who would have been asked to serve on this board would have voted to follow the rules, regardless of who appoints them.

---

This is just one of the many reasons why I think we need a change at mayor and county commissioner.  Randy Miller is an idiot.  That report they did on channel 6 I think it was about Bells, etc made her look like a moron.  

I was simply explaining my post to the guy who called me "sport and go get my skateboard".

There are exceptions to every rule and loopholes as well.  IMO I think its totally asanine to place a sidewalk in front of the dentists office for NO ONE!

How many of you guys have actually driven by and looked at the area in question?  I drive by there daily and each day I think of the people on this board who actually side with TMAPC.  I also think what IDIOTS do we have on the TMAPC that think its necessary for a sidewalk there.

If this is the type of difficult decisions they are making every meeting, maybe they need to re evaluate their degree of difficulty for things.  

You make it sound like everyone in this country follows the rules to a T.  Have you ever driven through a red light? Have you ever sped on the highway? Or switched lanes without signaling?  Did you go turn yourself in and pay the fines because you didnt follow the rules?  

There are exceptions to every rule.  If you are having an emergency, its OK to speed down the road with your flashers on to get to the hospital, is it illegal? you bet ya.

Dont make it seem like this board has always followed the rules every single time, because they obviously have not.  

---

Randy Miller may indeed be an idiot.  Why is that a reason to fire the Mayor?

Don't forget that the dentist has the option of placing money into an escrow fund so that she won't have to look so asinine.

Sidewalks are necessary.  They have to start someplace.

---

for starters, I think she did a horrible job on the whole police chief situation. secondly, the proposal for the toll bridge at 121st could have been handled differently.  meanwhile they decide to spend 56 million to move city hall, which in the long run will save the city money, but 20 million dollars for incidentals?? wish I had that kind of cushion when my bills were due.  

Meanwhile, our streets continue to get worse, and we are arguing over a section of sidewalk that in the near future will serve not a sole.  

You would think her past experience being secretary of commerce and tourism, she would want that toll bridge to bring more sales tax revenue to Tulsa, as well as work alot closer with the tulsa drillers to find a way to get them downtown.  

I hope the drillers do move out to Jenks,  more power to them, my home value will rise!

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apartments dont go up in value.

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guess I need to be more specific, I thought I had already mentioned I was building a house at 111th and hwy 75.  1 Mile west of beeline furniture in a neighborhood called south woods.  I am very familiar with the area, grew up in the jenks community and graduated high school from there as well.  Between the tulsa hills shopping center which includes belks, target, best buy, lowes, firestone, goodyear, chilis, BOK, a hotel to be named later, movie theater, the new walmart at 121st and hwy 75, and the new 35 acre development at 81st and 75 on the southwest corner, my home value should rise pretty quick.

Jenks is a great community, I dont understand why so many people in the area think it should be world war 3 about getting a toll bridge to bring more money to the tulsa community. Mind boggling to me!

wow, belks and firestone? sounds like shangri-la... [;)]
i know im always willing to pay $50 more/sq ft to be a mile closer to a wal-mart[:P]

unfortunately for you, property values in the tulsa burbs don't quite move that quickly... a map has been posted here before showing the details, im sure someone can dig it up... but you should have no problem arguing against sidewalks out there...

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Originally posted by brunoflipper

wow, belks and firestone? sounds like shangri-la... [;)]
i know im always willing to pay $50 more/sq ft to be a mile closer to a wal-mart[:P}

unfortunately for you, property values in the tulsa burbs don't quite move that quickly... a map has been posted here before showing the details, im sure someone can dig it up... but you should have no problem arguing against sidewalks out there...

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Nice sarcasm.  

Yeah you are right.  My apologies.  Not to mention my parents live 3 miles away, great schools, close access to highways, hospital, and entertainment.  West Tulsa has needed a new shopping area for awhile, glad to see its finally coming along.  

And might I add, there is going to be new development at 91st and hwy 75.  Plans came across earlier.  No details as of yet as to what specific stores will be.

quote:

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Originally posted by TUalum0982

QuoteOriginally posted by brunoflipper

wow, belks and firestone? sounds like shangri-la... [;)]
i know im always willing to pay $50 more/sq ft to be a mile closer to a wal-mart[:P}
And might I add, there is going to be new development at 91st and hwy 75.  

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my god that's in BFE.